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How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS


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#1601 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:06 AM

Never heard of him but yeah, I'm starting to think AtariAge is actually a really good place to meet people who've got access to machinery and tools that I don't :-) I've been saving up for a small CNC router so I can do my own stuff but for injection molding stuff and what not, I could really use some contacts!

 

Thanks!

 

-Mux

http://lotharek.pl/

I don't know if he is such a good guy to deal with but his products are normally well done and he does manufacture cases.

Check his SIO2SD cased bundle: I personally thought it added too much to the total price but still for a small run I can see how it is not too bad.

 

EDIT: I don't know him personally but he was the only one that had somewhat custom cases for some of his products as opposed to bare or reusing carts etc... Not saying he's the only one able to assist around the forums.


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:14 AM.

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#1602 SoulBlazer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:20 AM

Someone mentioned Mike Kennedy and RGR earlier.  Yes, Mike is one of the founding members of that podcast and site, but he left it earlier this year.  His only involvement now is to come back onto the RGR podcast each month to take part in their Top 10 debate.

 

Others have said this, but....another big reason this is a 'no' for me is that I can't see any exclusive games being made for this that are any GOOD.  Sure, it probably is easy to port games over, and I think a lot of folks are happy to do this, since with a good engine like Unity you can port it over with little hassle.  But without the fan base, you won't get the exclusive games, and that takes away another reason to buy it.

 

Actually, new consoles always have this Catch-22 that I'm amazed any of them are able to break out off -- without the installed base, you won't get exclusive games, and without exclusive games you won't get the installed base.  I guess the reason past consoles got out of this is cause the games launch with enough first party software that third party developers are willing to come on board once it's sold enough.

 

Someone posted in my FB thread on this last night that there's a reason that all modern consoles use CD's and it's not for their durability.  The issue is price.  It's expensive to make carts, especily for smaller runs like the RVGS would be wanting.



#1603 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:37 AM



.....

The issue is price.  It's expensive to make carts, especily for smaller runs like the RVGS would be wanting.

 

It really depends but here:

http://shop.krikzz.c...MD-FKITMD-C.htm

http://shop.krikzz.c...ells-SHELLS.htm

 

So If I were to want to make a 4Mbit games for Genesis ("core" ;) ) I could produce them for 20US$ starting point [just case and cart,  no labels etc..] which for a small run it's not that bad .... the same guy gives 20% discount on wholesale.

This prices are not even going thru the sources (which RVGS is instead doing).

 

I understand you when you say that CD/DVD are way cheaper but only at scale it start making sense pressing them as well.

 

[I know 20US$ base price is a non starter, I was just making an example that if I had to do a limited run I will work with what I have rather than spending too much in tooling for something that may never happen ... the alternative is to have the system use 1 cart with SD reader and the games are put there by the users .... oh what a revolutionary concept]

 

EDIT: If I were to make an Atari game I would ask Albert that seems to be able to support the shop here via repro carts and home-brew ... and the prices albeit not super cheap are somewhat reasonable considering the extremely small runs.


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:51 AM.


#1604 rob_ocelot OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:40 AM

Something that doesn't sit right with me is that after Kev injected some reality into the proceedings Mike chimes in and then exits the discussion permanently -- leaving people with the impression that Kev was on board and bailed leaving them in the lurch. 

 

When (not if) the IGG campaign fails to meet the target and the blame game starts I doubt anyone at RetroVGS will be pointing fingers at themselves and looking objectively at their own failings.  That same economy with the truth I highlighted above will likely be focused on this thread and people like Kev, which will be a shame.  No lessons will be learned by those who are the most in need of it.

 

So we have a guy who actually made something that works versus the guys who thought their time and energy was better spent deciding if the product should come in grape unicorn flavour with sparkles.

 

I'm sure you can tell whose back I've got when this hits the fan...



#1605 dommie OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:48 AM

 

Nintendo's next system, the NX, will almost certainly still support media of some type for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the needs of retailers still demanding some type of physical product. By the time the successors to the PS4 and Xbox One hit, one or the other may very well try to do away with the optical drive, and it may very well be time by then. A lot will depend if the Blu-ray video market continues to underperform. Either way, both companies are well positioned for an all digital future (as are PC and mobile). Nintendo is most of the way there as well, they just need to figure out how to change ownership from a user name+system basis to just a user name basis.

 

For all its perceived flaws (and we won't know what the REAL flaws are until a final product is out there), the Retro VGS does have a fairly noble mission, and that's to continue the legacy of physical ownership. They could very well be the vinyl of the videogame world, i.e., a niche, but a sustainable niche with strong enthusiast appeal. While I personally don't see a great deal to be optimistic about, I don't fault the core mission.

 

For sure.  As the owner of a retail store that's a Nintendo dealer, I speak from experience.  There's no retailer on earth that would carry a software-less system.  The margin is nonexistent on the hardware.  Retailers "make" around $5 a unit for hardware.  $5 on $300 doesn't really cover the cost of credit card processing to complete the sale, let alone normal business overhead.  Hardware manufacturers have been feeding us this terrible margin for years, selling us on the ability to makeup margins on software.  Which makes sense, until you take away software.  So, no software, no retailers.  No retailers, then Nintendo would be stuck selling hardware to the consumers directly - something they are not even remotely prepared or interested in doing.



#1606 PlaysWithWolves OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:59 AM

Someone mentioned Mike Kennedy and RGR earlier.  Yes, Mike is one of the founding members of that podcast and site, but he left it earlier this year.  His only involvement now is to come back onto the RGR podcast each month to take part in their Top 10 debate.

 

Good to know, but it still needs a disclaimer.



#1607 PikoInteractive ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:00 AM

SNA3D is still linked on their Games page:
http://www.retrovgs.com/games.html


On the glide path:

13h for 53K -> 490h to go to hit the goal at this rate -> 20 days

 

 

Actually last night I got an email from Mike saying he was going to add some other of our games tomorrow. But I politely declined and told him we will not move forward with this project

 

So We are officially out. :D

 

We will concentrate in known retro platforms and digital distribution.



#1608 triverse OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:03 AM

Piko, did you sign any Non Disclosure Agreements?  I am interested in interviewing you (in general) but it is going to be hard to not bring up the RETRO VGS at some point.



#1609 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:03 AM

Something that doesn't sit right with me is that after Kev injected some reality into the proceedings Mike chimes in and then exits the discussion permanently -- leaving people with the impression that Kev was on board and bailed leaving them in the lurch. 

 

When (not if) the IGG campaign fails to meet the target and the blame game starts I doubt anyone at RetroVGS will be pointing fingers at themselves and looking objectively at their own failings.  That same economy with the truth I highlighted above will likely be focused on this thread and people like Kev, which will be a shame.  No lessons will be learned by those who are the most in need of it.

 

So we have a guy who actually made something that works versus the guys who thought their time and energy was better spent deciding if the product should come in grape unicorn flavour with sparkles.

 

I'm sure you can tell whose back I've got when this hits the fan...

 

As far as we know they maybe talking on the phone and find a new agreement so nothing is written in stone, it's business.

 

If it goes down in flames it is only because they didn't do their homework right including making sure your FPGA expert is 100% onboard rather than the wishy-washy way they went about it once they got hit by the "it's too expensive" response to their 350US$ a pop. As kevin said at a certain point they told him maybe the FPGA is out .... ahhhh their only differentiating claim to fame is out ..... 

 

 

EDIT: also all of their forecasting was based on their then current idea of placing the system below 200US$ .... you can't simply almost double the price and keep the validity of the forecasting ... it doesn't work that way .....


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:24 AM.


#1610 PikoInteractive ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:07 AM

Piko, did you sign any Non Disclosure Agreements?  I am interested in interviewing you (in general) but it is going to be hard to not bring up the RETRO VGS at some point.

No I didn't sign anything, but as most of you guys I was kept in the dark with a lot of things. So I would only be able to provide my experience mostly.



#1611 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:07 AM

 

 

Actually last night I got an email from Mike saying he was going to add some other of our games tomorrow. But I politely declined and told him we will not move forward with this project

 

So We are officially out. :D

 

We will concentrate in known retro platforms and digital distribution.

How about your proposal to kevtris to help him get his design to fruition?

http://atariage.com/...60#entry3325213

 

I know it may have been something on the spur of the moment, just crossing the ts and dotting the is.


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:11 AM.


#1612 PikoInteractive ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:38 AM

How about your proposal to kevtris to help him get his design to fruition?

http://atariage.com/...60#entry3325213

 

I know it may have been something on the spur of the moment, just crossing the ts and dotting the is.

 

Im all for it, been working real hard to get our products on retailers and chain store. We l ready have a distributor (although they could see his product as competition). But if a product like that could be ironed out (pricing, user friendly functionality etc) I think it is a product worth bringing it out there.



#1613 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:47 AM

 

Im all for it, been working real hard to get our products on retailers and chain store. We l ready have a distributor (although they could see his product as competition). But if a product like that could be ironed out (pricing, user friendly functionality etc) I think it is a product worth bringing it out there.

Honestly, I would skip that part and have an online retailer (maybe Amazon) do all the distribution/warehousing for you.

It's been a long time since I bought any game on physical stores, but I can see that in some geographies you would need that.


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:48 AM.


#1614 PlaysWithWolves OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:48 AM

The big problem with doing this though is the total 100% lack of games for it.  Without enticing exclusive games that people would gotta have, it's a total nonstarter.  No one is going to take hundreds to thousands of manhours writing games for such a system if it does not have an installed base.  And it can't get an installed base without games.   Frankly, MAKING the hardware is the super duper easy part.  Writing the games to run on it... not so much.   You pretty much have to give a developer buckets of money to write an exclusive game, because they might never see any more money once the initial payment is made if it doesn't take off.

 

This probably will be the least-feasible and stupidest thing ever written at AtariAge:  What if you made the exclusive cartridge itself a dev kit along with PC game engine software (or a plug-in for popular game creation software) that is optimized specifically for that console? 

 

I await my being given gifts of fruit and vegetables in a public fashion:

 

800px-Pillory_91053771.jpg



#1615 bojay1997 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:28 AM

 

For sure.  As the owner of a retail store that's a Nintendo dealer, I speak from experience.  There's no retailer on earth that would carry a software-less system.  The margin is nonexistent on the hardware.  Retailers "make" around $5 a unit for hardware.  $5 on $300 doesn't really cover the cost of credit card processing to complete the sale, let alone normal business overhead.  Hardware manufacturers have been feeding us this terrible margin for years, selling us on the ability to makeup margins on software.  Which makes sense, until you take away software.  So, no software, no retailers.  No retailers, then Nintendo would be stuck selling hardware to the consumers directly - something they are not even remotely prepared or interested in doing.

Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft couldn't care less about small retailers like yourself.  If you sell used games, even less so.  Retailers like Amazon, Best Buy, Target and others are more than happy to sell digital consoles and the points or credit cards for them.  While I think NX will have physical media, large retailers where most of the sales happen aren't going to be a deterrent or problem should some manufacturer decide to move to a digital only console.  Heck, Gamestop and Target both sold Ouya and the PSP Go.  



#1616 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:32 AM

More FB fun, here's someone reminding them of old promises and their VP saying something stupid:

 

RVGSrVPblameMike.png

 

Really, you VP ask the guy to provide you dates on when that was said ... shouldn't you know what the company stated and when?

 

AMATEURS!!!!!


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:34 AM.


#1617 triverse OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:33 AM

Gamestop also sells the prepay cards for the various online stores so they are still able to get some of the sales for digital only purchases.  As far as the PSP Go I remember when it hit and visiting several Gamestops in my area (we had 4 at the time within 50 miles of my home, now we have 3).  Every one of them the staff would try and talk people out of buying the Go.  They would ask if it was a gift, etc, the usual questions.  Whenever they could they would bring up that you can purchase games right there in the store only for the other PSP systems, not the Go.  They also played up their return policy and how there is not a return option with the Go.  Credit cards were also brought up and concerns about identity theft got in the discussion too.  

They did whatever possible to discourage people from buying the Go.  I don't remember seeing the Ouya at any of the local stores around here.



#1618 triverse OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:38 AM

It was April 2015 that I saw this originally posted.  I have a habit of screen grabbing key pieces to cover my ass in my articles.  Anyone want to share this with them?

Two-controllers-180-dollar-price.jpg



#1619 jaybird3rd OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:40 AM

Really, you VP ask the guy to provide you dates on when that was said ... shouldn't you know what the company stated and when?
AMATEURS!!!!!

It's a slimy way of deflecting criticism, isn't it?  If somebody throws an old quote of yours back in your face, and if you can't deny that you said it or that it contradicts what you're saying now, all you have to do is throw it right back at them by asking for a date.  "Hey, that's a good clip.  Can you possibly provide a date?  How are we supposed to take you seriously if you can't even give a date?"  But assuming that isn't their intention, it's still another example of how providing too many specifics too early in the planning stages of a project is a mistake.  You're much more likely to make promises (even by implication) that you won't be able to fulfill later.  But I guess that's their idea of "transparency."



#1620 dommie OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:48 AM

Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft couldn't care less about small retailers like yourself.  If you sell used games, even less so.  Retailers like Amazon, Best Buy, Target and others are more than happy to sell digital consoles and the points or credit cards for them.  While I think NX will have physical media, large retailers where most of the sales happen aren't going to be a deterrent or problem should some manufacturer decide to move to a digital only console.  Heck, Gamestop and Target both sold Ouya and the PSP Go.  

 

Large retailers also prefer to actually make money on stuff they sell too.  Without software, there is literally no reason to carry such a beast in any store, large or small.  So unless they restructure the hardware margins nobody will carry it.  They could restructure the dealer margins, but the industry just isn't set up that way currently.  The philosophy from manufacturer to dealer is this: Hardware is an incidental purchase - it's done typically once per household per hardware generation.  It's a means to an end to play the software.  So they push the hardware as close to (or in some cases under) manufacturing costs in order to penetrate the marketplace, so the manufacturer can sell licenses to the software devs, and the retailers can in turn sell the software.  I've seen Best Buy's margins for hardware - they're pretty much exactly the same as mine.  So if they want to release a software-less unit they can, but there's only 2 ways to handle it: A) either direct to the consumers themselves or B) restructure their wholesale margins.  As a Nintendo dealer for several years, I'm just offering my input as how the industry is currently setup and what would need to change to accommodate such a drastic move. 



#1621 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:57 AM

It's a slimy way of deflecting criticism, isn't it?  If somebody throws an old quote of yours back in your face, and if you can't deny that you said it or that it contradicts what you're saying now, all you have to do is throw it right back at them by asking for a date.  "Hey, that's a good clip.  Can you possibly provide a date?  How are we supposed to take you seriously if you can't even give a date?"  But assuming that isn't their intention, it's still another example of how providing too many specifics too early in the planning stages of a project is a mistake.  You're much more likely to make promises (even by implication) that you won't be able to fulfill later.  But I guess that's their idea of "transparency."

Regarding specs and promises (PlaysWithWolfes has been keeping tabs)

 

 
this from them though:
 
 
 
EDIT:
 
26h 56.5K -> 920h to go -> 38 days

Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:08 PM.


#1622 jaybird3rd OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:00 PM

It was April 2015 that I saw this originally posted.  I have a habit of screen grabbing key pieces to cover my ass in my articles.  Anyone want to share this with them?

Thanks!  Here is a direct link to that post, just in case somebody wants to accuse you of doctoring the screenshot:
 
http://atariage.com/...stem/?p=3214636

 

(EDIT: From phoenixdownita's links, it looks like that information was posted in more than one thread.)



#1623 StopDrop&Retro OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:06 PM

It was April 2015 that I saw this originally posted.  I have a habit of screen grabbing key pieces to cover my ass in my articles.  Anyone want to share this with them?
 

 

Maybe there is something there, maybe there isn't. It's well known that the console was targeted at $150-180 initially. One interesting thing to note is that that post implies that they were going to have the PCB manufactured overseas, which would apparently keep costs down and now they want the PCB made here so it's all "Made in the USA." That post is from back when they were being simple and sensible.

 

They claim the $150-180 figure is from when hardware was based around the BeagleBone Black and before they were talking about including an FPGA chip, but I can swear I heard them talking about FPGA very early on around this time. I would recommend figuring out when they started talking about including the FPGA chip and what the price quote was at that time, that could be interesting.

 

Also triverse's screen cap shows April 8th and in the Retro Gaming Roundup podcast John Carlsen revealed that he was brought on board in March. So he was there when the statement was made.



#1624 triverse OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:06 PM

We won't be seeing direct Neo Geo ports any time soon since the NG uses a BIOS file.  I don't think you can easily replicate that through reverse engineering, let alone doing it on an FPGA board.  That means devs would be limited to "similar" hardware configurations as the Neo Geo but not capable of running Neo Geo games. Am I off on this or not?



#1625 johnlogic OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:12 PM

Thanks for the image. That's all I needed.

 

 - John

 

It was April 2015 that I saw this originally posted.  I have a habit of screen grabbing key pieces to cover my ass in my articles.  Anyone want to share this with them?

Two-controllers-180-dollar-price.jpg






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