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The Jaguar version of Rayman Conspiracy


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#1 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:49 AM

Over the years i've heard claims that the Jaguar version of Rayman was finished a year before the PS1 version but, Sony paid UBI soft to hold off the release until the PS1 version was ready.....

 

 

This has never held water for myself, as Michel Ancel told Gamestm, in an interview, back in Issue 11: 'When we did the original Rayman, Sony was telling us it was'nt the right style for the current trend'.

 

Plus there's been murmurings over the years about Sony originally not being keen to have Worms on the PS1 as they were keen to push the 3D aspects of the hardware, 2D seen as yesterdays news etc etc.

 

So where exactly did the thinking that Sony had somehow sabotaged the Jaguar version's release date as it might have harmed sales...spring from? 



#2 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:03 PM

The usual - the Great Big Bumper Book of Tales From My Ass, authored by Ultra Bitter Fanbois.



#3 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:39 PM

I was wondering if it's origins were'nt going to be traced back to another of these 'interviews' that no-one could quite remember when they saw it or in which publication or on what website, but are damn sure it exists.....

 
As far back as i can recal Sony were very much about showcasing the 3D aspects of the Playstation and i could never have pictured them wanting something like Rayman (lush as it indeed looked) held back until their hardware was ready, as it just did'nt fit in with the overal marketing 'attack' plan, i'm familar with.
 
Thus the claim always had the tinge of 'bitterness' that it did'nt remain a Jaguar exclusive, which was odd, as despite the odd Saturn review which praised the game, the PS1 reviews i recal thought game old hat and more at home on the Jaguar...


#4 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:47 PM

I've obviously no idea where it comes from, it just sounds utterly ridiculous. "pay to delay"? Why bother, why not just pay for exclusivity if it's really that important? I can't imagine the Jaguar version sold all that many units, any Jaguar game for that matter - the attach rate/tie ratio/however you want to call it can't have been all that great and there simply wasn't the install base to begin with. Do the math:

 

Not so good * not a lot = insignificant.

 

Somehow I can't imagine it being all that important... it's a great game, but then *all the reasons you stated in the OP*



#5 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:18 PM

Yep, there's simply no 'logic' i can apply to any of it, if anyone was going to pay to delay it or try at least and get it as an exclusive, the more sensible (if that's the correct word here) approach would of been SEGA to have it on Saturn as it seemed more ideally suited to how they were pushing the hardware compared to Sony...

 
I had the game on day 1, it was a great visual showcase for the hardware, loved game, but it was bloody frustrating in a lot of places, not a pinnicle in terms of platforming game design and i personally do not feel would have been the 'system seller' exclusive Jaguar needed, even if it had stayed on Jag.
 
I love/still dig out Rayman 2 on Dreamcast and that had DC specific content, but gorgeous as it was, i doubt did much for DC's fortunes, ditto Rayman Legends on PS3, which i loved initally, but oddly tired of..on PS3.
 
I've simply never seen the series as a flagship one.


#6 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:24 PM

Besides, Unseen64 has games origins as being on the SNES, if this is true...then any potential 'bitterness' that game moved from Jaguar to likes of PS1/Saturn and planned 32X version is just even more bizzare, as if things had been different again, it might have stayed on SNES and just been ported to PS1/Saturn once it became clear Jaguar was struggling at retail.

 
Sometimes it pays to be grateful for the quality games that did make it to the Jaguar.


#7 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:30 PM

There is truth to this - a 1 year delay seems fishy but Rayman was billed as a top new game for the Jag.  At one of the conferences it was announced that Rayman was coming out for the Playstation also and for some strange reason I believe Rayman for the Jag was not shown at the conference and was never shown again until release.

 

Jag Rayman was supposedly almost ready for release at that time and then wasnt released for like 3-6 months after that conference.  Technically Jag Rayman may not have been finished but the resources we put on the PS port and the jag delayed.  They magically came out about the same time I believe.



#8 Clint Thompson ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:03 PM

There is truth to this - a 1 year delay seems fishy but Rayman was billed as a top new game for the Jag.  At one of the conferences it was announced that Rayman was coming out for the Playstation also and for some strange reason I believe Rayman for the Jag was not shown at the conference and was never shown again until release.

 

Jag Rayman was supposedly almost ready for release at that time and then wasnt released for like 3-6 months after that conference.  Technically Jag Rayman may not have been finished but the resources we put on the PS port and the jag delayed.  They magically came out about the same time I believe.

 

Most likely it had more to do with a what's hot or in the spotlight moment kind of thing that will garner much more attention than the already existing Jaguar that is getting shit on from almost every magazine in the world from every angle. Knowing that the Jag already had some bad mojo going for it, they probably switched up the idea of priority so it was to appear as more of a PSX game also on Jaguar instead of Jaguar game also on PSX since the Jag was getting so much flack at the time.



#9 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:33 PM

Yeah, it would'nt be the 1st example of resources being switched as soon as it became clear which platform or platforms were going to be commercially viable to back first and foremost.

 
Legacy Of Kain and Soviet Strike started out on 3DO, then switched to PS1, Medievil was originally a Sega saturn project (still have the mag preview, quotes from developer here somewhere) before becoming a PS1 exclusive.
 
My thinking (at this point) is developers saw Jaguar struggling, but coding was so far along, it made no sense to simply can Jaguar version, simply put it on hold until PS1/Saturn versions were ready, then do a launch across all 3 platforms, thus 'saving' on marketing etc resources.They then canned any idea of a 32X version after seeing that too fare badly at retail.
 
I might well be very wrong, but i simply cannot see Sony wanting Rayman so badly they asked for Jaguar version to be delayed.


#10 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:45 PM

If the collected info is correct then, Rayman began life as an animation demo.on the ST, was originally planned for the SNES on cartridge, then the SNES CD Drive, then switched to Jaguar (cart) due to superior hardware, then everything from PS1, Saturn 3DO and 32X versions annouced?



#11 JAGUAR OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:50 PM

From my extensive research on Jag stuff online and in magazines, Jag Rayman was actually released atleast a week before the PlayStation version. Jaguar September 1st and PlayStation September 9th.  I think what happened was, Rayman obviously began on the Jaguar. When Sony AND Sega saw it at trade shows, they wanted it on their PlayStation and Saturn. So, obviously Ubisoft would be thrilled to make their game for those systems also, they began work on those version when they were in the middle of working on the Jaguar version.  This also lines up with the fact that magazines had SO many previews of the Jaguar version month after month. The work on the Jaguar version slowed down because they had begun working on PS1 and Saturn version alongside Jag version simultaneously... So I think there's a good chance all 3 versions were actually finished around the same time, actually... They might have had SNES And 32X demos of the game too at some point, but those probably only 5-10% game complete and scrapped early on, probably in early 1995.

 

Had their only been a Jaguar version, it probably would have been finished by mid 1995, like May or June.  But it took a few extra months as they were busy also working on other version.  And even then PC too.. But I think that came quite a bit after, early to mid 1996? And even a DOS version too, and then Rayman began rather big and popular.. Too bad the 2d Rayman 2 was scrapped...



#12 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:59 AM

"extensive research" backed up by opinion, supposition and not a single citation.



#13 NeoGeoNinja OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:09 AM

Too bad the '2D' Rayman 2 was scrapped...

 

100% agreed.



#14 NeoGeoNinja OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:11 AM

Also, when is "Rayman Conspiracy" due for release?

 

I really enjoyed Rayman Origins and, for that matter, Rayman Legends too...



#15 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:14 AM

Also, when is "Rayman Conspiracy" due for release?
 
I really enjoyed Rayman Origins and, for that matter, Rayman Legends too...


I overheard a conversation on the train this morning while I was asleep in the toilet, the word on the street is they're holding back the JagVR version until the Playstation 5 Morpheus game is ready to go. $ony interference again, it's shameful!

#16 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:01 AM

Here we go, full development path:ST-SNES-Jaguar-PS1 and reasons why it was moved to PS1 (far more powerful, easier to code for, CD storage perfect for storing games giant textures etc etc):

 

http://www.retrogame...king-of-rayman/

 

So, it was never 'born of the Jaguar' as it were, just found a home there as lt were for a while, until Jaguar hardware eclipsed by newer, more powerful, CD based consoles.

 

 

Now was it's Mother a Jackal Mr Thorn? and Sony paid the sum of $666 Thousand to have it switched?..beware the moon, stay off the moors, never use public transport, they ARE among us....



#17 Schmudde OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:47 AM

Actually, if you follow the money, the reality is quite simple.

 

Every commercial game has an associated P&A (Prints and Advertising) budget. The strategy has been the same since the 90s - get your game/movie/book everywhere. Buy as much real estate as you can possibly afford. The problem with releasing on multiple platforms at different times is that you break up that budget. Rayman didn't have a huge advertising budget, and if you put the Jaguar version out 6 months before the PS and SS versions, you'd be squandering what few resources you have.

 

Advertising campaigns are coordinated efforts with a lot of moving parts and a ton of overhead. You want to minimize that as much as possible. Multiple launches just add to that overhead.

 



#18 Willard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:48 AM

I think the fact that the Jaguar version of Rayman has certain differences (in level design, layers of scrolling, backgrounds in some levels .etc), that (if you assume the jaguar version was earlier) suggest some fine-tuning happened on other versions while the Jaguar version was sat untouched during their completion.

 

I highly doubt that Ubisoft would've put a substantial amount of extra time into the development of the Jaguar version after they got their PSX dev kit as things looked bleaker for the Jaguar with each passing day.

 

These are just deductions, of course, I think getting a real account from the developers would be interesting.

 

If they had the Jaguar version completed sooner, it would make sense to push it back so the game didn't appear old or get branded "a jaguar game being ported to other systems," as the Jaguar got a lot of flack. Spreading advertising across the systems makes sense too, I wonder if Atari would've pitched into the effort to bolster some system sales had they released it on the Jaguar first.


Edited by Willard, Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:54 AM.


#19 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:13 AM

Love it or loathe it, Rayman on the Jaguar will always been fondly remembered by myself, as it was the game that convinced a work mate to buy my Jaguar and games off me at the time (an era you simply could'nt give the damn things away). Tempest 2000 came close (as he was into the UK Club scene, big time), Doom he took to, but once he saw Rayman, that was it, cash brought in next day.

 
Of course with hindsight i should of kept the Jaguar, but in the then, here and now, it was a godsend...highlighted what the Jaguar offered over his aging MD in 1 simple instance.PS1 was out of his price range, MD just too old hat....Rayman did me proud.
 
Think looking at various quotes from UK developers (Core, ATD, Domark, Virgin etc) the picture becomes very clear, it soon became apparent Jaguar was not going to suceed as it were at retail, finish up what projects you had on the go, switch to PS1,Saturn+PC CD ASAP.


#20 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:49 AM

Here's a legitimate source of info on Rayman's Jag release which seems to show it being released on Sept 19th after the PSX release:

 

SUNNYVALE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 19, 1995--Atari Corp. Tuesday morning announced the launch of ``Rayman'' for the Jaguar 64 entertainment system. 

``Rayman'' is a challenging, unique game developed and published for Atari by Ubi Soft for the powerful Next Generation Jaguar. 

``Rayman'' transports players to a mystical world with vibrant animation and an upbeat soundtrack as they help the affable adventure hero defeat bizarre enemies, rescue his friends and restore peace and harmony to the world. 

Combining challenging game play, cartoon-like animation and authentic sound effects, ``Rayman'' appeals to gamers of all ages and skill levels. Players explore multi-layered worlds with independently scrolling backdrops leading to clever enemies that learn each gamer's playing style and fight back with wicked skill. 

``Ubi Soft has developed an outstanding game for the Jaguar 64,'' said Ted Hoff, Atari's president of North American operations. ``The animation for `Rayman' consists of over 50 hand-drawn characters, 65,000 colors and 60-frame-per-second movement, all of which highlight the superiority of Jaguar's 64-bit technology.'' 

Gaming capabilities and sophisticated visual presentation have the industry buzzing about this new game for Jaguar 64. In the September issue, Electronic Gaming Monthly awards ``Rayman'' for Atari's Jaguar 64 the Editor's Gold Choice Award. 

``Rayman'' is rated (KA) for kids through adults, is in stores now and has a suggested retail price of $69.99. 

For more than 20 years, Atari has provided consumers with high quality, value-priced entertainment. Atari markets Jaguar 64, the only American-made, advanced 64-bit system and is located in Sunnyvale. 

With headquarters just outside of Paris, Ubi Soft develops, publishes and distributes video games and computer entertainment software throughout the world, with offices in the United States, Germany, Japan, Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom. 



#21 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:19 AM

I haven't seen exact sales figures for the PS1 version of Rayman, but it appears that, at minimum, over 6 million units were sold on that platform alone. Given the user base, I'd be shocked if the Jaguar version moved more than 50,000 units at the most optimistic numbers (meaning nearly 1 out of every 2 Jaguar owners bought a copy). It seems to me a smart business decision to make the game multiplatform since you'd be all but guaranteed that the Jaguar version would be the worst seller, with no "backroom dealings" necessary. With that said, considering how it sold on the other platforms and the franchise it launched that continues to this day, Ubisoft lost nothing by, at least for a time, having the Jaguar as the lead platform, because they were clearly able to see through their original vision without compromise (and also meaning no development was wasted since the other versions were near duplicates). That's certainly what few, if any other titles on the Jaguar can lay claim to.



#22 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:17 AM

I think the fact that the Jaguar version of Rayman has certain differences (in level design, layers of scrolling, backgrounds in some levels .etc), that (if you assume the jaguar version was earlier) suggest some fine-tuning happened on other versions while the Jaguar version was sat untouched during their completion.


Or it suggests different target hardware lends itself to different methods and outcomes.

#23 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:54 AM

One interesting thing is that the Jaguar version of Rayman is slightly less polished than the others, and not just in ways that can be explained by hardware differences: IIRC it doesn't have slippery platforms (which is a actually a plus for me, 'cause the game is already hard enough as it is), the fairy who shrinks Rayman, etc.

It indeed looks like it could have been released earlier, but was set aside while work continued on other versions.

EDIT: damn, should have refreshed the page. Willard said that already.

Edited by Zerosquare, Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:55 AM.


#24 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:08 AM

Here's a legitimate source of info on Rayman's Jag release which seems to show it being released on Sept 19th after the PSX release

On the other hand, I found this:

Rayman (Video Game) is a 2D platformer and the first game in the Rayman series created by Michel Ancel. It was originally released in September 1995 for the Atari Jaguar and the MS-DOS. Two months later it was released for the Sony PlayStation and Sega Saturn.


Edited by Zerosquare, Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:10 AM.


#25 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:12 AM

Who to believe... a wiki or an Atari press release...




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