Too many homebrews?

[+cmart604]

I could see this possibly being an issue with other future releases, but Hover Bovver is sort of a special case. Many collectors already bought the box and overlays set, so most collectors only need the cart and manual.

 

That being said, I'd prefer to see future releases in the following order:

 

CIB

Cart only

ROM

 

This gives dedicated cash in hand collectors the first grab at quality releases. Then reward the patient folks with budget options. I do, however, see the issues with this approach from the seller's perspective. CIB = more investment and potentially less profit margin than say ROM only.

Yep.

[Ignorama]

Even if I also see the upsides of Elektronites solution I cant agree that this is good at all. Add the option to buy a box only IF the game gets a boxed release later and everything is perfect. If a game gets a cart only release and maybe a CiB release it forces people to buy the cart, because if no one buys the cart no CiB is coming, but many people just want them CiB (collectors) and so it forces this people to buy something they dont really want just to buy the wanted item later again.

 

Its of course a good marketing strategy, if it works out, but at least this customer wouldnt be satisfied, because it smells like getting some extra cash out of the collectors :/ Of course just if no Upgrade Set is offered, so I hope that this will be possible again, like it was for Old School.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ignorama

[intvnut]

I could see this possibly being an issue with other future releases, but Hover Bovver is sort of a special case. Many collectors already bought the box and overlays set, so most collectors only need the cart and manual.

 

That being said, I'd prefer to see future releases in the following order:

 

CIB

Cart only

ROM

 

This gives dedicated cash in hand collectors the first grab at quality releases. Then reward the patient folks with budget options. I do, however, see the issues with this approach from the seller's perspective. CIB = more investment and potentially less profit margin than say ROM only.

 

With cart only, you're only out the cost of cartridge labels and whatever you paid the programmer if the title doesn't sell well. Boards and shells can be repurposed, now that we have board designs that can be programmed after manufacture. You're unlikely to lose money selling a title cart-only.

 

With CIB, you're out the cost of the boxes, manuals and overlays. Those can't be repurposed for other games. The likelihood of losing money on a title is much higher.

 

Those risks are lower if you're not actually paying a programmer to write games, because you're either writing the game yourself, or you're in the... erm... "reproduction" business.

 

I see the reasons behind Elektronite's order (cart-only, CIB, ROM). What if those cart-only releases could be later upgraded to CIB? I don't know Elektronite's plans, but isn't that what happened with Old School?

[freewheel]

Perhaps the solution is to stop spending good money on cardboard alone.

 

While it's still rare on this platform, there have been a few releases in recent memory where a CIB release might as well have been a joke. It's why I started an interest check thread for Desert Bus, before becoming another joke.

[Intymike]

I wish we had these kind of problems for the Aquarius

 

I'm glad to own all homebrew games for the Aquarius.

[+intvsteve]

As @intvnut noted, the Old School case is an interesting one to consider. Could it serve as a model going forward?

 

Here we had a game that was published cart-only for various reasons. Eventually someone (cmart?) agreed to place a minimum order which also made possible the upgrade process of cart only to CiB. I presume the minimum order was essentially the break-even point to pay for a print run of materials.

 

This seemed to work out pretty well. The game ended up being more successful than initially expected, those who wanted to stay on a tighter budget w/ cart only could do so, those who incrementally upgraded could, and the full CiB folks got theirs, too.

 

Can this model be applied more generally, and how would the community embrace it? Memory's hazy, my search is lazy, but it seems that for Old School this has been seen as a good success. First couple times are usually the bumpiest. Are there certain numeric thresholds that can be consistently set?

 

Trouble with signing up for preorder lists is that people forget they signed up, or circumstances change and are later unable to follow through on a purchase. So such a process can't rely entirely on early vibes to automatically trigger "materials upgrades". It would have to be based on actual sales. Would we as a community be patient enough to embrace such a model? When does the window close? I.e. we can't expect that an automatic trigger of CiB kits hits after X cart only sales if X is hit a year after initial publication.

 

But the approach seems to have merit, as illustrated by the single data point we have. Some people will not much care for the delayed availability of a ROM, though perhaps that release format could also be handled on a case-by-case basis. I.e. when rights are negotiated for a licensed title (e.g. Boulder Dash) there are additional terms and parties involved.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

I could see this possibly being an issue with other future releases, but Hover Bovver is sort of a special case. Many collectors already bought the box and overlays set, so most collectors only need the cart and manual.

 

That being said, I'd prefer to see future releases in the following order:

 

CIB

Cart only

ROM

 

This gives dedicated cash in hand collectors the first grab at quality releases. Then reward the patient folks with budget options. I do, however, see the issues with this approach from the seller's perspective. CIB = more investment and potentially less profit margin than say ROM only.

 

The Hover Bovver box/overlays set were sold as 'souvenirs'....there were only 100 sets made available. Approximately 80 sold. They are no longer available, nor will they ever be again. The new box for Hover Bovver will have different screen shots, copy and a programmer name.....maybe even a sponsor logo (To be Determined). The new box will match the game.

 

The 'cart only' sale will be exactly that....a cart only. It is for the people who don't care about packaging but want to play on real hardware. If you expect to just make a 'faux' CIB, there is nothing stopping you but you'll have to make your own manual.

 

I've got an 'Executive Producer' who has ensured that there WILL be a boxed release and I'm giving you this information up front. There will be no 'upgrade kits'. If you want CIB, wait for it....or buy the cart and sell it later if you want to play it for 2 months. And, if people feel compelled to buy 'both' versions, don't get mad at me. Please seek help.

 

In the future, we will be up front with information if a CIB is definitely coming or not.

 

The Old School method worked well. I didn't have the confidence that I could break even on it. I sold it for a limited time cart only. There was no guarantee that there would be a boxed version. Tim Naber stepped up and purchased 50 at full retail (not Cmart) and ensured that there would be a CIB release. If he got stuck with them, he got stuck with them. This is a good model for 'iffy' games. It shares the financial risks.

 

Defender of the Crown WILL have a CIB release. No doubt about it.

[+intvsteve]

Ah, apologies for misidentifying the CIB executive producer. My lack of skill at forum searching on glorious display. I found a thread and there was speculation that cmart was involved.

 

So, THANK YOU AGAIN, Soulbuster! You've come through and helped Elektronite distribute games.

Edited April 17, 2015 by intvsteve

[+JasonlikesINTV]

A few quick notes...

 

The Old School model worked, but buying in parts made for a very expensive game. 2X shipping and not cheap components meant me paying way more than a standard homebrew. I much prefer the model of timing releases together and working with other developers to buy in bulk. I do understand that this takes some planning. Princess Quest seems like a great success story.

 

I also appreciate knowing in advance that a game will have a CIB release. I (and I suspect some other collectors) will fall into the category of passing on the loose cart to wait for the CIB, so I hope that loose cart sales aren't being used to determine if a game will get the CIB treatment. I suspect loose carts will somewhat cannibalize CIB sales, which are almost always 100+. I'd hate to see CIB sales dip below 100 due to loose cart sales. Again, I totally understand the risk...I'm just being a picky, selfish collector

[Intymike]

There is a article about homebrew on Wikipedia.

 

But the Intellivision is not even mentioned (but some other systems also).

So, it can't be too many homebrews.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrew_(video_games)

Edited April 17, 2015 by Intymike

[Special Teams]

And according to Wiki's Intellivision list of games, we haven't had a new homebrew since 2007...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intellivision_games

[+save2600]

Too many homebrews? Never!

So long as quality continues to be valued over quantity.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

A few quick notes...

 

The Old School model worked, but buying in parts made for a very expensive game. 2X shipping and not cheap components meant me paying way more than a standard homebrew. I much prefer the model of timing releases together and working with other developers to buy in bulk. I do understand that this takes some planning. Princess Quest seems like a great success story.

 

I also appreciate knowing in advance that a game will have a CIB release. I (and I suspect some other collectors) will fall into the category of passing on the loose cart to wait for the CIB, so I hope that loose cart sales aren't being used to determine if a game will get the CIB treatment. I suspect loose carts will somewhat cannibalize CIB sales, which are almost always 100+. I'd hate to see CIB sales dip below 100 due to loose cart sales. Again, I totally understand the risk...I'm just being a picky, selfish collector

 

 

You hope that loose cart sales aren't being used to determine if a game will get the CIB treatment?

 

Well, that's EXACTLY what it does determine.

 

I'm telling you right now that Hover Bovver and Defender of the Crown will have CIB releases. You can base your decision on which version to buy based on that knowledge. We are trying to catch the people who can't afford the CIB version or people who aren't interested in the packaging. We have enough confidence in those titles and 'Executive Producer' support to ensure that the game will be successful CIB. We want to cover all the bases selling loose carts. However, 'cart only' will ONLY be available for a short period.

 

On games such as 'Old School' there was never any guarantee that the game was ever going to come out in CIB format. We said so. I didn't have the confidence that the game could break even let alone make money. We also said that it was available for a limited time.

 

However, Old School sold fairly well, and the fact that Tim guaranteed 50 CIB sales is what clinched a CIB release. If the game had only sold say 50 loose copies, I know that I personally wouldn't have invested in a box....nor would an Executive producer likely buy 50 up front.

 

So, play that game if you like. But don't assume that when we say one of our titles is initially 'cart only' that you'll be fine 'waiting for the CIB version'. If sales are poor, it probably will never come... and you will miss out.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Further, I think that you are mistaken about '2x shipping'....the cart shipped for $40 and was included in the price. The 'upgrade kits' for Old School were light and shipped from the USA. The shipping was less than if you had bought a CIB copy from Canada.

 

However, I seem to remember adding a couple of bucks PayPal fees....nevertheless, I am almost certain that the shipping of both was less than the 12 dollars I charged from Canada

Edited April 18, 2015 by Games For Your Intellivision

[+JasonlikesINTV]

Further, I think that you are mistaken about '2x shipping'....the cart shipped for $40 and was included in the price. The 'upgrade kits' for Old School were light and shipped from the USA. The shipping was less than if you had bought a CIB copy from Canada.

 

 

Sorry, I should have clarified better. I didn't mean to imply two times normal shipping, rather I meant that I paid shipping twice. Either way, assembling in parts still made it the most expensive homebrew I've purchased, if I remember correctly (I'll have to double check my payments).

 

Again, I appreciate knowing if a game is expected to have a CIB release (as announced with DOTC and Hover Bovver). It helps me plan my purchases BTW, I'm glad both of these games are finally coming to fruition! Very excited. Keep them coming, you'll always have my business

[freewheel]

I think it's hard for people to grasp just how much money goes into making a boxed release. All of the pieces beyond bare cart add up, but the box is especially expensive. It's not just "the nominal cost of a box is $3-5, so add that to the final price and voila!". Minimum orders, setup costs, die discussions, etc all make boxes very, very expensive propositions, especially when you have zero guarantee of more than 50-60 sales for a given game (and even those numbers are likely to trend downwards as more homebrew comes out). I'm surprised CIB releases don't average $70 or so, to be perfectly honest. How Boulder Dash came in at such low price is a mystery to me, when you add licensing fees on top.

 

I love - LOVE - the thought of doing a CIB release. Hell, doing several. Having that nice "hey I made this" sitting on the shelf for the rest of time. But unfortunately I'm not independently wealthy and we're talking a several thousand dollar outlay just to get things ramped up for a release or two. Add in all the various CIB components and you're rapidly approaching 5 figures. It doesn't help that I'm in Canada and you can tack another $5-10 shipping onto the cost of every single cart I sell (as I imagine 90% would go to the US).

 

Then again, people pay good money for CIB releases of publicly available ROMs, so what do I know.

[Ignorama]

@ freeweed

 

Easy solution: Paid pre orders. I am sure if a trusted seller like Elektronite would make it this way no one would be afraid to pay in advance and so there is no risk about just selling 60 copies and losing money. At least I would not have a problem if future releases work this way, I definitely prefer this way if the other is to buy a cart release and if it sells good have to consider to buy a CiB one too. That the paid pre orders went pretty wrong in one case it doesnt proof this method to be bad.

[intvnut]

@ freeweed

 

Easy solution: Paid pre orders. I am sure if a trusted seller like Elektronite would make it this way no one would be afraid to pay in advance and so there is no risk about just selling 60 copies and losing money. At least I would not have a problem if future releases work this way, I definitely prefer this way if the other is to buy a cart release and if it sells good have to consider to buy a CiB one too. That the paid pre orders went pretty wrong in one case it doesnt proof this method to be bad.

 

There is too much uncertainty in ship dates with new games, in my opinion. At least, there is for the level of quality and the thoroughness of testing Elektronite's games go through.

 

If you have a fully debugged game ready to go, and you're just waiting on boxes, overlays, manuals, etc. (or need prepaid preorders to be able to afford to make those things), that's one thing. But, my experience has been the opposite with the last few games I've helped with. Boxes, manuals, overlays and hardware are ready and available before the game itself is, because play-testing and bug fixing are the long pole in the schedule by far.

 

You're already under a lot of pressure when you've already got a stack of physical goods, and you're trying to get the software nailed to go with it. Putting capital into all those pieces is a pretty big commitment to the title, but crucially, it's a commitment to yourself* as a game publisher. Adding a pile of prepaid preorders to that would just make me feel even more stressed, as now I'm not only committing to myself that I'm making this game, but also personally to each individual who made a prepaid preorder.

 

At least, that's how it is for me, which is why I won't take prepaid preorders ever again now that I'm in a financial situation that allows me to buy all the hardware and take on that risk myself.

 

__________________________

* By "yourself" here, I mean all the people personally involved in making the game.

Edited April 18, 2015 by intvnut

[Ignorama]

Okay I get your point and it really doenst make sense if it stresses the developer.

[Rev]

The PCB is more expensive than the box typically.

[wolfy62]

Elektronite/Games for your Intellivision has had a 100% great track record with me so whatever they do and how they release something, I will support it.

[freewheel]

The PCB is more expensive than the box typically.

 

Individually, of course, but find me someone who can deliver me a new order of 50 boxes for the same price as 50 PCBs. It's the same as cart shells - the shells themselves cost pennies to produce, really, yet here we are cannibalizing old games because someone's mold costs $10,000.

 

What it comes down to is that a PCB and shell are mandatory for any physical release. A box/overlays/manual are solely for the collectors among us.

[freewheel]

Okay I get your point and it really doenst make sense if it stresses the developer.

 

Adding to intvnut's comments, and yours - the people complaining about "too many homebrews" should take solace in the fact that so much of this flies under the radar.

 

With Elektronite, they have things like licensing agreements which are time-limited and whatnot, and MUST be shipped by a certain time. And there's already money invested in that, plus paid towards developers (commonly). So there's already a very large up-front investment sitting there that has to be re-couped. So you end up ordering a lot of physical material long before the game is ready to ship. It's a huge logistical nightmare. You only really hear much in advance about the obvious, "big" upcoming releases. Or from those who like to offer a bit of a tease - think Copter Command.

 

If things like pre-orders became common... oh boy. If you think there are too many homebrews on the horizon now, you might have a heart attack to know that there are probably 20-30 seriously solid homebrews being worked on, at this very moment. ALL of which could be released in the next 12-18 months - but many of which may take years, or never even see the light of day. None of which you've heard about yet. Imagine the pressure to the developers if we suddenly started advertising all of this, taking pre-orders, etc. Imagine the pressure on the collector to have to be shelling out for 10 games a quarter, games that may take a year or more to deliver. Or may end up never happening.

 

I think people need to step back from this "I need to have EVERYTHING" mentality because it'll only end in heartache. And it encourages, quite frankly, pretty shitty releases. Right now it's mostly the cream that rises to the top, in large part because it's such a challenge just to put together a full release in the first place. I'm actually a little surprised, given how long IntyBASIC has been out, that we've really not yet seen many "get rich quick" type releases. Blix notwithstanding. But don't kid yourself - the floodgates could open at any time.

 

Would you pay $50 for a CIB Hotel Bunny, simply because you insist on owning every homebrew? Not shitting on the game at all, but I don't think it's quite what people expect for that kind of money. And if you WOULD pay for it - I'd be happy to sell you a dozen like it every year.

[intvnut]

The PCB is more expensive than the box typically.

 

True in the long run. The dynamics are different, however. Back in 2007, we were still shipping EPROM-based carts which needed the EPROMs programmed before the boards were made. The game had to be perfect before you made PCBs, and if you made 100 copies, you had exactly 100 PCBs with the game.

 

But now, all three designs currently in the market are flash based and can be programmed / reprogrammed after manufacture. That means if you build 100 boards, you have 100 boards that can be used for any game that fits.

 

Cardboard, OTOH is still like the old EPROM boards. If you commit to a print run, you're paying for the entire print run regardless of how many you sell. Let's say, for the sake of round numbers, it costs $500 to print 100 boxes. (That's NOT the real cost. This is an example.) If you sell all 100 units, the boxes are effectively $5 per unit sold. If you only sell 25 units and sit on 75 unsold copies, the boxes are effectively $20 per unit sold. But in that second scenario, the PCBs can be rolled on to some other title. PCBs cost $X / unit sold, and that $X isn't nearly so sensitive to the number of units sold if you have other titles you can roll the boards onto.

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