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TransKey-II in development

TransKey TransKey-II

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#51 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 4:52 PM

Here's a link to the most recently updated schematics in a single file (2 pages). The original individual schematic files I posted earlier are also good, since they are like a living document residing in my Public DropBox folder, and have been automatically updated.

 

So this reflects the current state of the PCBs being made.

 

-Michael



#52 bob1200xl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 5:35 PM

It looks like many of my Microsoft USB mice come with an adaptor to plug into a PS/2 mouse port. Doesn't that indicate that these 'USB' mice will run with PS/2 code?

 

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#53 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 5:58 PM

It looks like many of my Microsoft USB mice come with an adaptor to plug into a PS/2 mouse port. Doesn't that indicate that these 'USB' mice will run with PS/2 code?

 

Bob

 

Yes it does. I tried an older Logitech USB mouse with the green adapter plug (which is actually wired the same as the purple colored one) and it worked just fine. However when I tried the same thing with a wireless USB mouse it was a no-go. So apparently some will work this way and some wont.

 

-Michael



#54 bob1200xl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 6:40 PM

Did the wireless USB mouse come with an adaptor to PS/2? No adaptor included probably means no PS/2, right?

 

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#55 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 7:47 PM

Did the wireless USB mouse come with an adaptor to PS/2? No adaptor included probably means no PS/2, right?

 

Bob

 

Sorta no to the first question, because I picked up the mouse at a thrift store, so I didn't get an adapter with it, but it certainly could have come with one when new. And to the 2nd question that is an affirmative  :grin:

 

-Michael



#56 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 1, 2015 7:59 PM

I've had several people mention their concern for compatibility of TransKey-II with Lotharek's Stereo Board, and from what I can see in this simulation, it looks pretty promising.

 

TK-II%20%26%20Stereo%20Board.png

 

Stacking height will be the only concern. Although because of a different arrangement in how the POKEY piggy-back works on the TransKey-II, it'll tend to maintain a fairly low profile. But of course the situation will need to be looked at with real hardware.

 

-Michael


Edited by mytekcontrols, Sat Aug 1, 2015 8:04 PM.


#57 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 2, 2015 7:46 PM

Of course there are two POKEY Stereo Boards available at this time, the 2nd being an offering from Candle'O'Sin called the Simple Stereo Board. Below can be seen a simulation of the new TransKey-II piggy-backed on top of this board.

 

TK-II%20%26%20Simple%20Stereo%20Board.pn

Unfortunately the piggy-back version of TransKey-II will run into clearance problems with the headers on the left side of the Simple Stereo Board. But fortunately if all you are after is the ability to add a PS/2 keyboard along with stereo sound, then you are in luck since it already comes with an AKI interface built-in. However if you want the added features of the TransKey-II, including the ability to add a mouse, then using the solder-in version TransKey-II-XEGS may be the way to go.

 

As you can probably tell by now, when optimizing the TransKey-II layout, I concentrated on being more compatible with Lotharek's board mainly due to the lack of any kind of alternative keyboard support.

 

-Michael

 

 

Edit: I doubt very much that the piggy-back order could be changed, with the TransKey-II below the Simple Stereo Board. At least not without adding some additional height by the use of 1 or 2 machine pin sockets in between.


Edited by mytekcontrols, Sun Aug 2, 2015 7:56 PM.


#58 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 2, 2015 9:34 PM

I just had a thought about the Simple Stereo + TransKey-II situation. Obviously if someone wishes to use a TransKey-II instead of the Simple Stereo's built-in AKI circuit, J1 and J2 which are on the left side of the Simple Stereo Board, could be removed (de-soldered or cut shorter). Although I can't see why someone would want both PS/2 keyboard interfaces connected at the same time, but if they did, perhaps replacing the straight headers with right angle ones would be enough to allow stacking. Since the AKI circuit uses diodes for isolation, and the TransKey-II floats the connections to POKEY, neither one will interfere with the other (Simple Stereo Schematic).

 

-Michael

 

 

Edit: Actually J2 if present can be eliminated entirely, since it appears to only be used for programming the AKI chip. Also by filing down or cutting off the upper left corner of the TransKey-II board, the J1 connector will clear, thereby not necessitating it's removal.


Edited by mytekcontrols, Sun Aug 2, 2015 9:42 PM.


#59 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 3, 2015 12:51 PM

PS/2 Optical Mouse Availability

 

Curiosity made me do a search for PS/2 Optical Mice through Amazon using the search term: ps2 optical mouse

 

And let me tell you there was quite a list to choose from, and some for very few $$$. So although using an adapter on a compatible USB mouse is an option, I would recommend going with one of the native PS/2 variants instead. Also I kinda doubt that the adapter would fit next to the keyboard plug on the TransKey-II-XEGS version anyways.

 

And for those wanting a wireless mouse, this older technology (non-Bluetooth) might work. It says it has a 'corded' PS/2-USB receiver.

 

Microsoft K80-00070 Wireless Optical Mouse (RF USB-PS/2)

413YTQVKFNL._SX425_.jpg

 

As for modern Bluetooth wireless mice, they only come in one flavor, that being USB. And from what I've seen they don't have legacy support for PS/2 built-in.

 

-Michael

 

Edit: a few posts back Bob and I were talking about USB to PS/2 adapters, and I think we got our wires crossed making it seem like the USB optical mouse I had tested to work with an adapter, was wireless. It was not. However I did test several Bluetooth wireless mice, and they all failed to adapt to PS/2 protocol.


Edited by mytekcontrols, Mon Aug 3, 2015 12:58 PM.


#60 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 5, 2015 6:12 PM

I just got an email today saying that the PCB's have shipped  :rolling:

 

Should see them in about 2 days, but assembly will have to wait until I get back from a short vacation with my better half.

 

In the mean time I've been tweaking a lot with the mouse code, and have smoothed out its on screen cursor movement a bit more, as well as added the ability for the user to adjust the mouse's resolution. Essentially it has 5 different settings, changeable by holding down both the left and right mouse buttons, and then incremented each time when the middle mouse button is pressed ( A number from 1-5 will appear on screen). A setting of "1" = the slowest cursor movement vs how far the mouse needs to travel, and of course "5" is the fastest , or in other words, requires very little movement of the mouse in order to get the cursor traveling. This resolution parameter will be stored in the PIC's EEPROM, so it will always default to what you last set it to. 

 

-Michael


Edited by mytekcontrols, Wed Aug 5, 2015 6:15 PM.


#61 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 7, 2015 3:28 PM

We got boards  :lust:  :grin:  :rolling:  :waving:

 

TransKey-II_PCB_Top.JPG

 

TransKey-II_PCB_Btm.JPG

 

 

-Michael



#62 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 8, 2015 5:55 AM

Maybe we need something like this (but with USB mouse output) :?

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • NumArrow.jpg


#63 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 8, 2015 9:31 AM

Maybe we need something like this (but with USB mouse output) :?

 

 

So this would be to supplement your existing keyboard? Yes I can see that for someone that really likes their original keyboard, but just wants to add enhanced navigation and a keypad (and possibly a mouse).

 

To insure compatibility it would be best if it used a PS/2 connection. And it could also work if the USB retained the PS/2 legacy support via an adapter.

 

-Michael


Edited by mytekcontrols, Sat Aug 8, 2015 9:31 AM.


#64 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 8, 2015 10:24 AM

All of us never liked our keyboards.

 

May be except some lucky men who owned Topre-style keyboards ...

 

But I say that my 30 years 130XE keyboard is still alive!

 

I only want to say that arrows is more gaming feature then navigation one.

All of us remember ROBBO->Doom->Duke Nukem>Heretic-> ...

 

Anyway I think that playing Robbo with arrows is much more preferable then with Atari style kbd.

 

I killed 3 or more sticks for the fame of Robbo.

I killed 3 or more kbds for the fame of Nukem (It was good old strong IBM keyboards!)

 

We need arrows and numpad as an option.

Good luck!



#65 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 8, 2015 1:08 PM

 

We need arrows and numpad as an option.

Good luck!

 

Perhaps something like this (Ebay link)...

 

$T2eC16h,!zQE9s3suFzJBSE24rgoKg~~60_57.J

 

If toggled to a non-NumLock state, then the arrow keys (and home, end, ect.) will all work for navigation.

 

-Michael



#66 Bumzyman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 8, 2015 3:01 PM

Houston we have Mouse lift off!

 

 

I got this mouse thing working pretty good. Ended up doing mouse acceleration utilizing a combination of the stock Control-Arrow keys (normal speed) and the XL/XE F1-F4 cursor movement keys for fast mode. Using a two key send with entirely different key codes really makes the cursor zip around the screen when you move the mouse faster. Of course this means that a non-XL/XE computer will not have this variable acceleration feature, unless it is running a modified OS. But at least the mouse will still work.

 

When you watch the video you'll see that I drop a couple of characters onscreen utilizing the mouse buttons (got all 3 buttons working), and I also implemented the scroll wheel to do single Up-Arrow and Down-Arrow key sends to POKEY when the scroll wheel is moved up or down.

 

BTW; I had to turn off the normal key click sound, it was driving me crazy  :mad:

 

-Michael

Very Cool !!



#67 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 9, 2015 9:09 AM

This is my long term DREAM!

 

And It's The ATARI style in it's own!

... NEXT suggestion ->

 

I love CMI-08 interface.

 

It make all things without using mouse code deciphering in ATARI.

 

In the case of using it as "Atari touch pad" emulator it almost not uses processor's cycles.

...

 

AND really we need Directions Pad as external device, because I never seen perfect Joystick !!!

...

 

Sencitive enough.

Hard enough, of course!

Soft of course like oldies!

And NO errorprone!

 

I thought about it for a long time.

I could found particular desigions but I never seen common !

 

And as some kind of particular (philosophically it's another device) type of joystick we need arrow_pad.

 

For using with modern devices as it's controls

For using with new investigations like DirectionPad driven DOS'es.

 

We ALL know that tiny ATARI CAN LAUNCH some man to the MOON!

 

And demos shows us that THERE ARE GU\RUS that can charge ATARI "meat" upmost the Moon!

 

Let's GO!

 

(Don't kill pianoist !!!

Don kill THE DREAM! )

 

EZ

;-)



#68 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 9, 2015 11:48 PM

576XE I'm not sure I really understand what you are trying to say on that last post, but perhaps a simple diagram will help clarify some stuff.

 

TransKey-II%20Diagram.png

 

This is pretty much what TransKey-II is designed to do. It has two PS/2 inputs, one dedicated to the keyboard (or Numpad), and the other for a mouse. It'll translate this into what the POKEY chip needs to see in order to print characters on the screen, and in the case of the mouse, send out Control-Arrow keys to move the cursor around screen in some proportion to the movement of the mouse. It does not disable the stock Atari keyboard, so either method of input is always available.

 

All inputs to TransKey-II need to be communicating with a PS/2 protocol. Some USB devices have legacy support built-in for this protocol, only needing a passive USB-to-PS/2 adapter. Most all wireless keyboards and/or mice are not compatible, unless they specifically say that they support PS/2.

 

TransKey-II comes in two different configurations. One that piggy-backs the POKEY chip, and the other that interfaces via a D-SUB 15 connector to the XEGS (or can be used as a solder-in version for the 400,800,XL, and XE computers).

 

Hopefully this answers some of your questions.

 

-Michael



#69 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:32 AM

Hi, mytekcontrols!

 

This picture and Transkey II are both very impressive!

Thank you!

 

As I remember USB is direct successor of SIO. So, why PS/2?

Being unfortunate user of 130XE I'm afraid solder desolder anything.  :-o

 

Is it possible to make such kind of devices to be connected externally through Joystick ports?



#70 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:23 PM

Hello 576XE 

 

Maybe we need something like this (but with USB mouse output) :?

post-20208-0-42298700-1439034888.jpg

 

We've had something like that:

 

DSC07186.jpg

 

They probably didn't sell enough to redesign them for the XL and XE series.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

PS it's the CX85


Edited by Mathy, Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:23 PM.


#71 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:29 PM

Thank you Mathy.

 

Really I'm dreaming of arrowspad at first (for comfort gaming) and numpad at second (why not)

 

I think we need modern CX85 replacement.



#72 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:15 PM

How did the CX85 work? If I recall, you had to have software that recognized it (CX85 driver). This means that for the majority of software out there, it would not do anything except take up table space (making for a nice paper weight). Kinda reminds me of how the XEP80 worked as well.

 

So if I had my choice between a joystick or an SIO peripheral like this one, I would think SIO would have been a better move since it could of at least pre-loaded its own handler, something that a joystick device can not do. However even better still, is a device that can utilize what has already been built-in to the system OS, that being the keyboard interface via POKEY. So that is what the original TransKey (1990), the AKI (aka: KRH), and the new 2015 TransKey-II all have taken adavantage of in their designs. As such they require no drivers, and are completely transparent to any program or game ever written for the Atari 8.

 

And getting a mouse to work through this interface, once again means absolutely no driver required, as would be the case for using an ST mouse. So basically this stuff just works right out of the box.

 

"As I remember USB is direct successor of SIO. So, why PS/2?"

 

USB may indeed be a descendant of SIO, but that doesn't mean that they are compatible. Which in fact they are not, neither from a hardware or a software aspect. Implementing a USB 'HOST' is no trivial matter, and not something I presently feel capable of doing. So that is why I took the much easier to implement PS/2 approach on this go around. Ironically it is much, much easier to implement a USB client, and there are quite a few embedded processors that have this technology built-in. As a client, you are the mouse or the keyboard. But unfortunately for what we are doing, we need to read the mouse or the keyboard, so that requires Hosting.

 

-Michael



#73 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:01 PM

Hello guys

 

The CX85 was plugged into a joystick port.  It was released in the 400/800 era, so they might have used one of the extra joystick ports.  Even if they didn't, you probably wouldn't use the CX85 and a joystick at the same time.

 

Innovative Concepts had the ICX-85 kit, the ICX-85 keypad and the Deluxe ICX-85.  You had to install an extra connector and a custom circuit board on your Atari 8 bit computer.  Since this connector had 12 keys (13 on the Deluxe version), the connector on the CX-85 probably had to be changed too.  The kit was for people that already had a CX-85.  The ICX-85 Deluxe also had the function keys (F1 - F4) just like the 1200XL had.  (I'm just trying to summarize what's in the I.C. catalog)

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy



#74 Irgendwer OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:49 PM

PS/2 Optical Mouse Availability

 

If you like a wireless optical PS/2 mouse, then these spare offers in Germany may be interesting (only 3 - 4 €):

 

http://www.pollin.de...defunktion.html

http://www.pollin.de...defunktion.html

http://www.pollin.de...RA_optisch.html

 

Regarding the CMI08: I'm working on a USB version - but please be patient.



#75 mytekcontrols ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:38 PM

Hello guys

 

The CX85 was plugged into a joystick port.  It was released in the 400/800 era, so they might have used one of the extra joystick ports.  Even if they didn't, you probably wouldn't use the CX85 and a joystick at the same time.

 

Innovative Concepts had the ICX-85 kit, the ICX-85 keypad and the Deluxe ICX-85.  You had to install an extra connector and a custom circuit board on your Atari 8 bit computer.  Since this connector had 12 keys (13 on the Deluxe version), the connector on the CX-85 probably had to be changed too.  The kit was for people that already had a CX-85.  The ICX-85 Deluxe also had the function keys (F1 - F4) just like the 1200XL had.  (I'm just trying to summarize what's in the I.C. catalog)

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

Thanks for the additional info Mathy.

 

 

If you like a wireless optical PS/2 mouse, then these spare offers in Germany may be interesting (only 3 - 4 €):

 

http://www.pollin.de...defunktion.html

http://www.pollin.de...defunktion.html

http://www.pollin.de...RA_optisch.html

 

Regarding the CMI08: I'm working on a USB version - but please be patient.

 

Thanks for the PS/2 wireless mouse links Irgendwer.

 

-Michael






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