gorfcadet Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok, we all deal with lag on modern tvs; some of us keep crts to avoid the problem, but all of us for whatever reason have dealt with lag rearing its ugly head in our games. So what games do lag just ruin for you? Of course for me Mike Tyson's Punch Out!! is at the top of the list, but the original Super Mario Bros is right behind it. Punch Out - NES - Darn near unplayable on Wii U virtual console. Super Mario Bros. - NES - jumps are just off enough to be a problem. Lode Runner - NES - timing is everything here as well Space Harrier - 32X - I average about four worlds worse than on a crt here. AfterBurner II - 32X - Same as Harrier and the canyon runs just tick me off. Kool Aid Man - 2600 - Don't laugh. The lag kills my score on this one. Overall I'd say playing on a modern tv is like playing with a cheap controller; you can do it, but it is really gonna hurt on some games. Which games just make you want to punch your lcd/led/whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbd30 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 "Punch Out" needs to be lag free in order to be playable when you get to Sandman. The reaction times required in response to quick visual cues are ridiculous. "Super Mario Bros" is still quite playable on emulation with LCD monitor. With some practice I recently got to 7-4 without any warps or cheats. But the timing is going to change a little. If you're so adapted to playing with no lag then it might throw you off. "Battletoads" needs such fast reaction times that it probably is almost unplayable in later stages without CRT but I've never gotten that far. I haven't found many classic games where lag can't be compensated for. Original NES "Punch Out" is probably the worst offender. Even SNES "Super Punch Out" is still playable with lag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenegg Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The lag is very much dependent on the display. It comes down to the refresh of the panel and how fast the scaler is. For devices with poor scalers (pretty much any low to mid level display), performance can be drastically improved using a device like the Framemeister XRGB-mini. I get no perceivable lag on my Sony HX750, with consoles connected and scaled through a Denon AVR-1913 or XRGB-mini. I can easily play through games like Punch Out and Battletoads without any issue and I'm intimately familiar with playing these games on CRT displays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wongojack Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Kaboom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomaios Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'm just going to go ahead and say all of them. CRT or BUST! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Yeah, generally all of them. The framemeister and a low latency display has helped me out, but it's still a couple whole frames (at least) off of a crt. I notice it most on Super C. My hands still remember how to play that game through to nearly the end, but when I'm playing on a laggy display or emulation, I die pretty quickly. Often losing a life or two in the first level alone. Old games must seem impossible to today's youth. The videos of them getting frustrated and quitting pretty quickly don't surprise me. Hell, I do the same, and I went in knowing how to play. Something like the wii VC--when one adds the lag of the wireless controller, to the software emulation, to the 480p upscale, it can't really be playable. I actually haven't tried VC (because if that), but it just can't be a good time. Edited July 28, 2015 by Reaperman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorfcadet Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 mbd30, Sandman in Punch Out is typically where it all falls apart for me as well. goldenegg, Sony is rated best for low latency AND you have good upscalers. Sony is out of the tv business now btw. I didn't intend for this to be a discussion on how to defeat lag with good gear. XRGB boxes don't come standard and most of us don't have that kind of coin. It is sad that classics like Punch Out are being ruined for future generations by "improving" technology. Of course most of us suck at Battletoads on a crt anyway. That game is the devil. Retro gaming is becoming like record collecting; anyone can get in, but to properly enjoy it requires obscure expensive equipment. One of my favs that is on almost every console that I can't stand to play on lcd is Robotron 2084. I get a good 30% drop in score on my lcd tv The ps3 and 360 versions hurt more because I have to use analogue sticks which seem to bother my reaction time, though it could be wireless controller delay. My favorite way to play is either ps3 on a crt w/arcade sticks or a 7800 on crt with 2 Genesis pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Every game ever made has 1/5th second lag by human nature. It takes you about 1/5th of a second to process and recognize on-screen activity. Takes you 1/4th second to get that joystick activated; all inclusive from the time you see something to the time you decide what to do to the time it happens. Games with patterns and "in the groove" waves you can play on anticipation autopilot even if the apparent lag gets to 1/2 second. Edited August 1, 2015 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 All Shmups... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheObscureGamer Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I got an LCD TV and I have NO lag. What are you guys talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I got an LCD TV and I have NO lag. What are you guys talking about? Okay, now put the pipe down, wait a few hours and try again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaserCat Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I have a 2004 Sony analog crt for 240p, a 2001 Toshiba hd crt for 480p, and a 2009 Pioneer plasma for 1080p and I have never experienced any input lag on any game ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Okay, now put the pipe down, wait a few hours and try again. Come to think of it, that method certainly would have made me care a lot less about the lag, and also would have saved me a ton of effort and money. Afterall, it's not like Framemeisters grow in poorly-concealed patches in the middle of the woods. I'd better go double check to be sure. Edited August 1, 2015 by Reaperman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassGuitari Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I don't have any lag on my LCD TV with retro systems, either. It looks like blurry ass, but there's no lag.But to answer the original question, I would think *any* game would be ruined to some degree by display lag, some more than others. Unless it doesn't require real-time input, like an RPG or strategy game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenegg Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Okay, now put the pipe down, wait a few hours and try again. As I previously mentioned, it's very possible to have a modern display with no perceivable lag. Many manufacturers try to minimize lag for gamers by offering modes which disable all advanced image processing, which is a major source for lag on modern displays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurritoBeans Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I have a few LCD TVs, and I only notice lag on one. The other - some Toshiba - won't let me use the game mode but if there is any lag, it doesn't feel any different from my CRTs or 1702s. Really any game with pixel-perfect stuff or that needs quick reactions gets ruined when it comes to input delay. I do a lot worse at Punch-Out!, every shoot-em-up is a lot harder because I can't move out of the way in time, FMV stuff like Dragon's Lair is a lot harder, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 My LCDs have a gaming mode which shuts off a lot of the image processing and smoothing, and eliminates most if not all of the lag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerhomer Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Like two years ago I bought Solar Fox for 2600. When playing it I noticed that the controls were crap. I would turn but it wouldn't always register. I was surprised because it had gotten good reviews online on various websites. But then I found out why I was having issues with the game. It was lag with my tv. I plugged it into a CRT and then I was able to enjoy the game. Solar Fox for 2600 sucks due to lag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) For those asking, what we're talking about is the last-second "Why did I die, I hit up?" It causes us to play perhaps more conservatively than we should have to play. Rather than get right up to enemies and dance around them, we may start opting to back it off a bit. Maybe 'play it safe' with less confidence. In my case, I know that the framemeister adds ~20ms, and my projector adds ~24ms at 1080p. Yes I bought it specifically because it was tested for latency, the manufacturer rarely publishes the figure, especially for upscaling. At 16.67ms/frame, that's still 2-3 frames of latency I'm dealing with at every instant of every game. Those aren't ideal numbers, but I've gotten it down to where I actually don't notice it. Maybe side by side I could, but it's not the issue it was with my last projector and no framemeister. Back in the day, we said "why did I die, I hit up?" all the time, but it was probably for other reasons. Back then, it was usually because of joysticks with long throws, or those lousy plastic 'spiders' in them that contacted cruddy switches in a rather indirect way. So did we really 'hit up'? For atari systems, I got rid of most of that by switching to the epyx 500xj (aka 'the crippler'). Sure it turned my wrists into a textbook case of repetitive stress disorder, but it was way worth it. Once I started feeling the microswitch engage, I knew darn well when 'up' was hit in time, and when it wasn't. There were a lot of vague, cruddy controllers back then--heck, they still are now. Edited August 2, 2015 by Reaperman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I used to use the PointMaster Pro (still have it today). Despite the longer throw, it was pretty snappy and responsive. This joystick granted me papal dispensation from the laws of physics. Lag times went negative. I moved it so fast the stick switches used their own momentum to continue traveling to the point of closing the contacts. Meantime I was commanding the next switch to be activated. There were times the whole stick would resonate and throb with a rhythm. I would be gyrating and whipping into positions that would horrify a Yoga therapist. Oftentimes twisting my arms in a 180' knot, hanging off my chair, spinning on my ass, and going upside down and contorting worse than a mental patient. Drooling. Spit flying. If I wasn't upside-down, the stick would be. I'd sling the base and beat the shaft with a fervor unlike anything ever seen before. I had a special helmet from which I hung car speakers for makeshift headphones. And the guys from Fermilab's Tevatron called up to see what the fuck was going on! Edited August 2, 2015 by Keatah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 My brother had a SMS BITD and we'd complain a lot about the response time playing certain games. Great Wrestling comes to mind. Not sure what in the hell is going on there, but figured it was a cross between the god awful square pad and the programming of the game itself. We had such a shitty time trying to play that thing, that I haven't touched it since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dangerous Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 For me its punch out. I used to be able to get to Tyson no problem,no bueno with the Wii mote. I couldn't punch bald bull in the stomach to save my life.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7800fan Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Kid Icarus. When I tried playing it at my brother's place on his shiny new 80-something inch TV, it was shit. My timing were all off from when I used to play on CRTs. I moved the NES to his CRT he kept in the kitchen and it was playing like a well oiled machine. I'm sort of trained to move in certain way on Kid Icarus and if there's lag, I end up off and shitty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 My brother had a SMS BITD and we'd complain a lot about the response time playing certain games. I had a brief stint with the SMS while trying to get back into collecting consoles bitd. The SMS was indeed laggy with many titles. And I wasn't impressed. It was at the beginning of the 16-bit era, and still being an 8-bit system, it was probably underpowered for software of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah98 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Battletoads is probably more impossible with a modern, laggy television! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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