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C64 games without hardware sprites


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#1 José Pereira ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:15 AM

O.K. because Mariuszw asked here is what I found...
I will try to see if there are more and update the list:
 
-> 3D games like the ones using the Freescape 3D engine are in bitmap and can be adapted to A8. The side if exist and other colours can be coloured with PMGs like the panels and the cursor can be a C64 Hardware Sprite -> A8 PMG:
Freescape ones:
http://ready64.it/gi...6/castle-master
http://ready64.it/gi...er-ii-the-crypt
http://ready64.it/gi...id/87/dark-side
http://ready64.it/gi...o/id/65/driller
(Space Star Oblivion: Epyx U.S.A NTSC: http://ready64.it/gi...tation-oblivion)
http://ready64.it/gi...7/total-eclipse
http://ready64.it/gi...the-sphinx-jinx
Others:
http://ready64.it/gi...50/sentinel-the(There is also a same 4colours 2bpp BBC/Electron version)
 
 
-> Static screens 2D:
Saboteur (it can be done and we'll do PMGs underlays for colouring like Tezz did on Manic Miner, I have some ideas to get it as simpliest as possible ;) :) ):
http://ready64.it/gi...d/2542/saboteur
http://ready64.it/gi...-avenging-angel
 
 
It for sure there are more...
:)

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:06 AM.


#2 José Pereira ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:03 AM

There are also 2.5D/isometric that by now it seems that are only two unavailable for A8: Nosferatu The Vampyre and Bobby Bearing but they are in Mariuszw's port listing.

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:04 AM.


#3 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:53 AM

I'll add one that is not using hardware sprites but is really strange - Karnov :)

 

Very strange use of character set (considering it's on c64). Similar to Sentinel - multiple charsets.

Not sure if it would be worth converting to Atari... Lots of color attributes used.



#4 Poison OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:30 PM

Yes, Saboteur, please;-)



#5 thegoldenband OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:03 PM

I'll add one that is not using hardware sprites but is really strange - Karnov :)

 

Very strange use of character set (considering it's on c64). Similar to Sentinel - multiple charsets.

Not sure if it would be worth converting to Atari... Lots of color attributes used.

 

That looks like a straight conversion of the ZX Spectrum game:

 



#6 wanax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:14 PM

I've never seen him before this game for C64... :?



#7 Philsan ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:20 PM

Skool Daze is a famous ZX Spectrum game converted to C64:

https://www.youtube....h?v=wgwi9t-wf1o



#8 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:44 PM

 

That looks like a straight conversion of the ZX Spectrum game:

Yes it is.

Like someone just said - convert it 1:1 and use character mode so you don't have to scroll full bitmap screen like Spectrum does. Slow as hell.

Remember playing it over and over just because I wanted to understand more about this 'insane' graphics method for a c64 game :)

Later played it on Arcade and on Zx Spectrum and found out it's actually a pretty decent game.



#9 thegoldenband OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:51 PM

Yes it is.

Like someone just said - convert it 1:1 and use character mode so you don't have to scroll full bitmap screen like Spectrum does. Slow as hell.

Remember playing it over and over just because I wanted to understand more about this 'insane' graphics method for a c64 game :)

Later played it on Arcade and on Zx Spectrum and found out it's actually a pretty decent game.

 

Ah, I had the sound off so I didn't hear the commentary. :)



#10 Philsan ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:55 PM

Another 3D famous ZX Spectrum game converted to C64 is Head over Heels, but I don't know if it uses hardware sprites:

https://www.youtube....h?v=65PGGzIPM3A



#11 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:15 PM

I wonder about the real sense of this thread, as ALL of those games never will made it to the A8 in a usefull way.

"Ego view" games as created on the C64 were not convertable in that mode. It still makes no sense to use "160x200" pixel with dither pixels to get 16 colour values on the screen, if you can get a real 4x4 mode with 16 colours on the A8.

Some time ago , I made this mockup video, approximating the speed of the A8 using "the same" screen as the C64 version...



It would be still too slow.


Also, those "hires" games take use of hires colours where the Atari has none. Only Saboteur could do an interresting rendition on the A8.


You guys really should take more attention on some Wolf 3D game... thus a game , the A8 could REALLY do.

#12 Wrathchild OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:34 PM

Tir-na-nog looks like another spectrum->C64 port and the colouring quite simple so potential for an A8 port there.

 

Would also love to see "Ant Attack" too. The code is a mix of basic and machine code.



#13 Shawn Jefferson OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:21 PM

Aren't all Plus/4 games not using sprites?  I guess you still have to deal with the issue of 256 versus 128 character sets, and lack of colors on the Atari.

 

Bard's Tale? ;)



#14 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:27 PM

Plus4 has no sprites but can select between 256 or 128 (auto-inverse) character modes.

 

Some Apple 2 conversions to Atari or C64 don't use PMGs or sprites.

 

Possibly Drol - not sure on that one.  Fair chance games like the Ultima series don't use sprites.

Easy way to check would be to use something like the ICU64 addon for Vice or Frodo.



#15 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:43 PM

Possibly Drol - not sure on that one.  Fair chance games like the Ultima series don't use sprites.


DROL uses EOR Softwaresprites.

#16 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:53 PM

Tir-na-nog looks like another spectrum->C64 port and the colouring quite simple so potential for an A8 port there.
 
Would also love to see "Ant Attack" too. The code is a mix of basic and machine code.


Seems the Speccy version is also a better example. I wonder if anyone really played the game on the C64...



#17 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:56 PM

"Ego view" games as created on the C64 were not convertable in that mode. It still makes no sense to use "160x200" pixel with dither pixels to get 16 colour values on the screen, if you can get a real 4x4 mode with 16 colours on the A8.

Some time ago , I made this mockup video, approximating the speed of the A8 using "the same" screen as the C64 version...
It would be still too slow.

Making that 3d part in Gtia mode would make it much faster. Imho it would be more than enough.
 

You guys really should take more attention on some Wolf 3D game... thus a game , the A8 could REALLY do.

We are :) There are at least two-three engines being developed at the moment and who knows how many more that are secret :)

#18 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:21 AM

as we all know it's not that easy to simply convert 3d games in 160x200 to 80x60... you need to adjust the tables, FOV, turning speeds and other formulars/calculations which are somewhere in the code based on the viewport.

 

160x100 can be an option though...



#19 kenjennings OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:57 AM

DROL uses EOR Softwaresprites.

 

... which means it doesn't use hardware sprites.    ("C64 games without hardware sprites")



#20 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:35 AM

as we all know it's not that easy to simply convert 3d games in 160x200 to 80x60... you need to adjust the tables, FOV, turning speeds and other formulars/calculations which are somewhere in the code based on the viewport.

Come on Karolj - it's all some kind of easy math thingy... Bet you can do it in couple days ;)

#21 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:44 AM

Downscale direct like that wouldn't be too hard, plus there's no MSB to worry about for Xpos in either case.  Upscale where it's not a direct ratio would be hard.

 

For Y scaling you can cheat thanks to flexibility of LMS if you choose not to scale by altering the program.



#22 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:53 AM

Come on Karolj - it's all some kind of easy math thingy... Bet you can do it in couple days ;)

 

;) I was refering to the fact by taking e.g. Driller c64 version and try to adapt that for different screen layout... 



#23 José Pereira ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:07 AM

Hi guys, I can't load C64 Char/Sprite Ripper or ICU64 now to see, how is it done on all those Freescape 3D games the shots and pointer, is it by hardware sprites?
By the way all these were converted to C16 Plus4 but some have strange anwfull sides colouring gfxs that I don't understand why but if its in bitmap mode we could do a straight port and still use the PMGs for the sides and the panels colouring :).

#24 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:16 AM

Hi guys, I can't load C64 Char/Sprite Ripper or ICU64 now to see, how is it done on all those Freescape 3D games the shots and pointer, is it by hardware sprites?

I wouldn't worry about that. It's easy compared to rest of the game.

#25 José Pereira ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:02 PM

Hi.
Mariuszw I think that I found another one: How To Be a Complete Bastard.
It is uggly looking on the C64 version because they decided to have it in 2:1 ratio in the playing area part.
It seems that the only hardware sprites are those two sides multicolour gfxs that we can have them as ours two multicolours PMGs.
The sides vertical letter can also be the Missiles 5th colour and this way we can even do it in 32Bytes wide screen mode with some little, little changes.
It, for some strange reason, is missing a 4th colour on the playing area that we can add to have it looking much better (similar to the Amstrad CPC's though it's in 1:1 ratio). And also have a DLI that wall and floor have dintict colours :).
The bottom part hi-res can still be that way with the PMGs overlays like we are doing on the other games and also when the down half of the playing area turns into the hi-res text.
Only problem is that the game is in charmode (was easy to get it because they are mixing 1:1 and 2:1 ratios that isn't possible on their bitmap mode). If you can easy turn it into ours GR.15 bitmap mode would be another port :).
I'll show you soon a screen with my idea...
:thumbsup:

Edited by José Pereira, Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:09 PM.





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