FPGA Based Videogame System

[keepdreamin]

Speak for yourself dude. Did Analogue hire you to their marketing department? If not then whatever opinions that you claim as fact has zero bearing on final outcome.

 

If Analog releases a reskinned Super NT with same hardware but genesis cartridge and controller ports, I will buy it. Bonus points if it comes with optional Power Base converter for SMS/GG, or just have the ports built in. At any rate the core will run with a bog standard sms mini adapter, and adding FM synthesis and SG-1000 support would be trivial on FPGA.

 

I would also buy a reskinned Atari unit as well.

 

Tusecsy's self worth is too huge to be contained just to Atari Age. I was on the epforums recently checking on Everdrive pack updates and you'd never guess who was there pissing in Smokemonster's cornflakes regarding his recent "career" change.

[Keatah]

Uhh ooh. what does that mean career change? I suspect.. ??

[Keatah]

If the business model of Analogue is to flog as many as possible, then using the same PCB with different cartridge slots would be the logical thing to do. However this doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a EE level since all you need to do is implement the cartridge slot with the most pins (eg the NES's 72 pin slot) , and build pin converters for everything else. This is why the crummy Retron and clone devices with more than one slot are so terrible, because they basically solder 3 PCB's together (NOAC, SNES, SEGA MD/MS) with little regard for build quality. The build quality of a lot of the NOAC type clones look like something out of a "daddy has a hobby selling counterfeit nintendos in the basement". Sure outside they look a bit polished, but the inside is sloppy at best. How else do you sell 10$ worth of parts as an $80 console?

 

This gives me pause for a just a moment. If the units were built cheap enough, meaning simple in construction, then maybe it would be worth considering. No flogging of customers need take place. 1 slot, 1 fpga, 1 system, and some connectors and miscellaneous supporting parts. I could see high reliability coming from such a state of affairs.

 

Once you get into cartridge adapters things seem to go wonky. Gotta wiggle it this way, or push it that way. That's not for me.

 

[Keatah]

Just noticed the first page he mentioned this Zimba 3000 system that will have most of these retro systems. Making are dream a reality. But still havn't starting making it so it won't be out for awile.

Wonder how much power it would of needed so we can get actual 4k so are tv's don't have to scale it. I know if you have a 4k tv it's best to have it at 720p since it's scales 240p better.

 

I wonder if the dream of having 1 system play ALL videogame cartridges is still alive and well? Or has it quietly morphed into something else?

 

I still want to see effort being put into such a rig. All cartridges, all systems. No interference from marketing "strategists" or artificial stratifications and price points. No month-long boardroom debates about a $699 price tag or a $749 price tag. We know there is engineering involved. We know it will cost x amount of man-hours. But the end result is going to be a simple product that won't be difficult to sell.

 

That's what I'm waiting for.

[Keatah]

IIRC the 32X is basically an underclocked Sega Saturn without most (all?) of the supplemental hardware like the VDPs and way less RAM, so implementing those two 32-bit RISC CPUs on the FPGA might be asking a bit much.

 

Then it's time for a bigger FPGA. If the price increases by $100.. then so be it. Most of us in the videogame hobby are likely to be well off enough to afford such luxuries.

[Keatah]

He doesn't know, he just becomes so confident in his unfounded assumptions that he presents them as irrefutable fact. It's entirely possible (likely even) that some of his assumptions are correct. That doesn't mean that it's OK to present them as certainties using language that implies there has been some sort of official confirmation.

 

He needs to learn how to use language like "I think it's likely that" instead of "It's guaranteed that", or "I think it will" instead of "It will" when he presents his assumptions.

 

As with anything tech, especially in this "internet age". Believe it when you see it. All else is FOD.

[keepdreamin]

Uhh ooh. what does that mean career change? I suspect.. ??

 

Smokemonster simply isn't hosting rom packs anymore, that's all. Moving on to lists, and rom verification utilities. A certain someone decided to just be a little ungrateful regarding this move and left a pretty self centered reply.

[Keatah]

You're speculating. There has been zero information about a jailbreak. There is no guarantee it will happen. You don't have any inside knowledge, and it's entirely possible there will be no jailbreak. Their lawyer could decide to prevent a jailbreak from happening for liability reasons, for all we know. Stop saying it's guaranteed just because you THINK it's very likely to happen. Your prediction could be wrong, and wouldn't you feel terrible if you told somebody it was guaranteed, they bought the console on your word, only for you to be wrong? I'm not saying it won't happen, but stop acting like your unsupported guess is fact.

 

 

In terms of the videos that Analogue showed off today: I hate the glitchy boot animation, it's terrible, but the option video showed that you can turn it off ("title -> menu" and "title -> game" options were shown alongside "direct menu" and "direct game" options).

 

The menu layout looks nice, the features look nice, the font is an unreadable nightmare (all the letters look the same). Luckily there was a font menu option, so it may be possible to change it to one that's easier to read, but they skip over it in the video. Fingers crossed they include a more normal font!

 

God I hate that. In technology, especially technology, it's out when it's out!

 

And that animation, I'm just gagging all over again, like I had the flu a day ago. Edgy, racy, annoying, been there and done that. Convergence failure - must be a new thing.

 

And those fonts, does anyone ever listen to their gut instinct? Because something looks futuristic or jarringly different and departs from the norm doesn't mean it's a good thing. I can't imagine anyone finding it easy to read - which is always a paramount "feature" in user interface design. Readability! So fail on that..

 

[keepdreamin]

 

 

 

Wow, that seems like an amazing set. How's the input lag? Does anything above Line3x work for 240p or do you just stick with Line3x to get an integer scale to 2160p?

 

 

LG if you want the higher end OLED. If you're looking for a cheap gaming sets, TCL.

 

Either way, couple the OSSC with those and you're good to go.

https://www.videogameperfection.com/forums/topic/tv-compatibility/

Edited December 17, 2017 by keepdreamin

[Keatah]

Edit:

It'll be great when FPGAs are powerful and affordable enough to handle line9x (240p->2160p) mode to be able to avoid the TV's scaler entirely and not worry about the fact that 1080p is not an integer multiple of 240p.

 

It'll happen, no doubt about that. I do, however, find FPGA adoption in the consumer space still rather slow. Annoyingly slow.

 

FPGA is hot in data centers, big-data aggregation, communications, internet backbone, automotive telematics, software-defined radios, aircraft instrumentation, electronic test equipment, and remote telemetry.

[Keatah]

Assuming someone is going to do months of fulltime work for free is an interesting way to think.

 

Gee I don't know about that. Look at some popular software emulations. Software emulators, a taboo topic in this thread, I'm sure.. But thousands upon thousands of man-hours have gone into making the better ones. And they're all for free.

[Wolf_]

 

Gee I don't know about that. Look at some popular software emulations. Software emulators, a taboo topic in this thread, I'm sure.. But thousands upon thousands of man-hours have gone into making the better ones. And they're all for free.

Also we don't know how Kevtris is paid. If his payment is based on a percent of the sales it would be very beneficial for him to make the units more appealing with extra cores. Also assuming he or Analogue eventually make a console designed to support multiple systems then having those cores ready would be helpful for everyone involved.

 

Even without that he is a passionate guy that does a lot of stuff he doesn't have to. Not that we have any right to expect that of him but we should appreciate the hell out of him for it.

[keepdreamin]

Also we don't know how Kevtris is paid.

 

 

and we shouldn't. Salary is a very personal thing., to be shared only when volunteered freely. So don't waste time speculating.

[Wolf_]

 

 

and we shouldn't. Salary is a very personal thing., to be shared only when volunteered freely. So don't waste time speculating.

I was simply pointing out that we shouldn't assume everything Kevtris does is "a loss" to him because that may not be the case.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

This gives me pause for a just a moment. If the units were built cheap enough, meaning simple in construction, then maybe it would be worth considering. No flogging of customers need take place. 1 slot, 1 fpga, 1 system, and some connectors and miscellaneous supporting parts. I could see high reliability coming from such a state of affairs.

 

Once you get into cartridge adapters things seem to go wonky. Gotta wiggle it this way, or push it that way. That's not for me.

 

Even a cheap modern connector like PCI-E will get glitchy when it gets dirt in it. So now you gotta isopropyl + cue tip on two card edges, and use isopropyl + credit card + coffee filter for two card slots, and pray that the console doesn't lock up of freeze some time after the game loads. So it is in best interest to keep adapters to a minimum.

 

 

I wonder if the dream of having 1 system play ALL videogame cartridges is still alive and well? Or has it quietly morphed into something else?

 

I still want to see effort being put into such a rig. All cartridges, all systems. No interference from marketing "strategists" or artificial stratifications and price points. No month-long boardroom debates about a $699 price tag or a $749 price tag. We know there is engineering involved. We know it will cost x amount of man-hours. But the end result is going to be a simple product that won't be difficult to sell.

 

That's what I'm waiting for.

 

Sure Analogue could make an FPGA-powered Retron like all-in-one device and sell it for $500, but lay people wouldn't know the difference and likely would buy the craptastic emulator box instead because it's cheaper and supports save states.

 

I could still see doing an SMS and Gensis slot together on the Mega NT though, like how they did with the NES/Famicom.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Also we don't know how Kevtris is paid. If his payment is based on a percent of the sales it would be very beneficial for him to make the units more appealing with extra cores. Also assuming he or Analogue eventually make a console designed to support multiple systems then having those cores ready would be helpful for everyone involved.

 

Even without that he is a passionate guy that does a lot of stuff he doesn't have to. Not that we have any right to expect that of him but we should appreciate the hell out of him for it.

Jailbreak will definitely increase sales after the initial preorder period. Kevtris knows this. Analog knows this. But for liability reasons, Analog cannot release this device and advertise it as a piracy machine. That's why ROM loading / dumping, adding cores and other shit is unofficial, off the table. The fact they honor warranties even if you applied the unofficial jailbreak firmware is proof that they condone it, even if not publicly.

 

As for whether or not a Super NT jailbreak would cut into sales of the Mega NT, that is debatable. They need to maximize sales of the Super NT first before considering the Mega NT. It's also plausible they may make the SNES core exclusive to the Super NT (and visa versa) and still release the Mega NT separate when it's ready, though that may piss off some of the fanbase who only wanted to purchase one unit.

[Schizophretard]

Sure Analogue could make an FPGA-powered Retron like all-in-one device and sell it for $500, but lay people wouldn't know the difference and likely would buy the craptastic emulator box instead because it's cheaper and supports save states.

 

I think when the Z3K is out it shouldn't really be marketed towards lay people. It should be marketed to collectors who already have a bunch of consoles as perfect replacement hardware for most if not all of their consoles. A collector should be able to look at a wall sized entertainment center full of consoles, A/V switch boxes, lots of wiring, etc. and think,"This little box can perfectly replace everything on that wall and if I wanted to I could sell everything on that wall to pay for it." For a device that would make me think that I would consider $500 cheap and think Kevtris was ripping himself off.

[Schizophretard]

Jailbreak will definitely increase sales after the initial preorder period. Kevtris knows this. Analog knows this. But for liability reasons, Analog cannot release this device and advertise it as a piracy machine. That's why ROM loading / dumping, adding cores and other shit is unofficial, off the table. The fact they honor warranties even if you applied the unofficial jailbreak firmware is proof that they condone it, even if not publicly.

 

As for whether or not a Super NT jailbreak would cut into sales of the Mega NT, that is debatable. They need to maximize sales of the Super NT first before considering the Mega NT. It's also plausible they may make the SNES core exclusive to the Super NT (and visa versa) and still release the Mega NT separate when it's ready, though that may piss off some of the fanbase who only wanted to purchase one unit.

 

I think if the jailbreak was released but then there were cores that were exclusive then it would make the unofficial jailbreak look official. If the Super Nt had every core but the Genesis and the Mega Nt had every core but the Super NES then it would look like Analogue is the ones choosing not just which cores don't get released but also which ones do get released. For an example,"So, what you are saying is that not only is it a coincidence that your employee is releasing "unofficial" firmware but it is also a coincidence that he is releasing it in a way that maximizes sales of your consoles?" I think the same reasoning would apply if Analogue themselves started selling cartridge adaptors,"Why are you selling cartridge adaptors for firmware that is "unofficial"?"

[Shin_K]

I hope there will be a way to replace the menu font and the boot screen at least on the jb fw. (I like the approach with the built-in boot screen a lot actually, but I might want a super famicom logo screen or something too )

[F34R]

If there isn't a j/b for the Super, like the Nt Mini uses, then I hope the cart slot is miles better than the cart slot for the NT Mini. My only complaint for my NT Mini is the cart slot is just about useless for me.

[Deltax5]

I hope they fixed that shimmering effect they talked about on mylifeingaming youtube channel.

[Kismet]

 

I think if the jailbreak was released but then there were cores that were exclusive then it would make the unofficial jailbreak look official. If the Super Nt had every core but the Genesis and the Mega Nt had every core but the Super NES then it would look like Analogue is the ones choosing not just which cores don't get released but also which ones do get released. For an example,"So, what you are saying is that not only is it a coincidence that your employee is releasing "unofficial" firmware but it is also a coincidence that he is releasing it in a way that maximizes sales of your consoles?" I think the same reasoning would apply if Analogue themselves started selling cartridge adaptors,"Why are you selling cartridge adaptors for firmware that is "unofficial"?"

 

That's the thing. You can make passive cartridge adapters the way to "unlock" that core in the official firmware. Also if people wanted to make their own pin adapters, it would also unlock it the same way. It's not like you'd need a second firmware blob on the pin adapter, that would just make it a pain to fix bugs. Or people could quite literately make a 'everdrive' without the pin adapter, and just wire to the pins that the pin adapter would use, and n/c the rest. It's not like the pinout for the consoles are a big secret.

 

There's also the problem of the SNES and MD do not have the same number of buttons. the SNES has 8, the MD has 4 on their release controllers (7 on Mark II genesis units, which were not compatible with all 4-button games.) So a SNES game would likely be unusable on a MD unit without a controller with at least 8 buttons. A Super NT using SNES/SFC controllers has enough buttons to play most consoles except those that require the coleco/atari number pad. A Mega NT could actually use 9-pin controllers from the Atari, and it's not an issue, though finding original controllers might be difficult. It might be viable to find after-market controllers, or aftermarket jaguar controllers that could be remapped from 15 pin to 9 pin.

[Keatah]

Even a cheap modern connector like PCI-E will get glitchy when it gets dirt in it. So now you gotta isopropyl + cue tip on two card edges, and use isopropyl + credit card + coffee filter for two card slots, and pray that the console doesn't lock up of freeze some time after the game loads. So it is in best interest to keep adapters to a minimum.

 

 

..there could be fiber-optic connectivity between the console and its adapter. With the only two connectors being VCC and VDD. These can be reliable enough and easily cleanable with your shirt. Of course that'd mean a whole new level of complexity for the actual signal/bus communications.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

That's the thing. You can make passive cartridge adapters the way to "unlock" that core in the official firmware. Also if people wanted to make their own pin adapters, it would also unlock it the same way. It's not like you'd need a second firmware blob on the pin adapter, that would just make it a pain to fix bugs. Or people could quite literately make a 'everdrive' without the pin adapter, and just wire to the pins that the pin adapter would use, and n/c the rest. It's not like the pinout for the consoles are a big secret.

 

There's also the problem of the SNES and MD do not have the same number of buttons. the SNES has 8, the MD has 4 on their release controllers (7 on Mark II genesis units, which were not compatible with all 4-button games.) So a SNES game would likely be unusable on a MD unit without a controller with at least 8 buttons. A Super NT using SNES/SFC controllers has enough buttons to play most consoles except those that require the coleco/atari number pad. A Mega NT could actually use 9-pin controllers from the Atari, and it's not an issue, though finding original controllers might be difficult. It might be viable to find after-market controllers, or aftermarket jaguar controllers that could be remapped from 15 pin to 9 pin.

Megadrive 6-button controllers use 8 buttons plus Dpad. The 8th button is the select button on the upper edge which can substitute for select on the SNES controller.

 

Here's where it gets screwy. Using the six button layout for SNES titles have two popular layouts depending on which style game you are playing:

 

Platformer:

[L][X][R]

[Y][A]

 

Platformer layout is great for Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country, and other platformers which use three main buttons.

 

Fighter:

[X][Y][L]

[A][R]

 

Fighter layout is optimized for fighting games such as SFII which adapt a full six button arcade layout, ie strong-med-weak kick and strong-med-weak punch. If you map SFII SNES to a Genesis pad, this is what you need to match the arcade layout. Most other fighting games use a similar structure.

 

Playing Super Mario World using the fighter layout or SFII using the platformer layout on a six button rectangular action pad or arcade stick feels awkward and non-intuitive. Same is true for the reverse. 3-button genesis games would benefit from being mapped to the platformer layout to use the lower three buttons of the diamond, whereas many 6-button Genesis games would benefit from being mapped using fighter style. It just depends on the individual game mechanics as to optimal button layouts between systems. But all 8 Genesis buttons are present on the SNES controller and visa versa. Also don't forget to hold select down to play Geneis titles which are incompatible with 6-button standard controllers, like Ms Pacman.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I hope they fixed that shimmering effect they talked about on mylifeingaming youtube channel.

This is user error. The "shimering effect" is caused by horizontal scaling not being equal to whole integer multipliers, and can be corrected by selecting integer scaling in the options menu. By keeping horizontal scaling to integer multiples like 3, 4, 5, or 6, you avoid the issue entirely. N.5 pixel increments with alternating widths every pixel aren't too bad, but any other fractional pixels widths using nearest neighbor scaling look can go from looking bad on static screens, to hideous when scrolling. The scalar menus need display options to notify users when the horizontal pixel scaling is even integers or half-integers so there's no guessing or user error. AVS I use 3.5 or 4x horizontal scaling, because 3.75 looks like ass when the game scrolls.