FPGA Based Videogame System

[Newsdee]

Having 32X support built-in would make it a clone of the unreleased Sega Neptune. That would be awesome, although figuring out the 32X chips may be as much work as supporting a new console. So I'm not holding my breath.

[LewisD]

I wonder how long it will take for someone to start selling new 3D printed bottom trays designed for Mega Sg + Sega Cd Model 2?

[Kaide]

 

Odd that you bring that up. I had exactly the same thing on my old model 2. I kept buying copies of Chaotix thinking it was the game, and I've probably got 4 of them around here now. I even bought a second 32x to swap, but it wasn't until I switched the genesis underneath out that they started working for me. I've never had any validation that others have experienced that issue before, despite having brought it up a few times here--is it now a 'known thing' that happens? The best part, is that after at least a decade of on-and-off fighting with it, I finally played the game and...well, it turns out it wasn't worth the effort.

 

I'm pretty sure that most sega genesis variants don't run the whole library in some way--sega always struck me as not caring about consistency between models.

 

I may have even run across your post when I was troubleshooting the problem on mine. It was likely what prompted me to try my Model 1, and realize that worked.

 

Having 32X support built-in would make it a clone of the unreleased Sega Neptune. That would be awesome, although figuring out the 32X chips may be as much work as supporting a new console. So I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

Yeah, even if it was feasible in the sense of being able to do the work to replicate the behaviors, there's no telling if the space on the FPGA is even available to fit two SH-2 cores on top of everything else.

 

The more I think about it though, the more I realize that 32X support is caught between a rock and a hard place:

• To use the existing 32X peripherals, you must support RGB analog output that is within the Genesis spec (240p) enough that the 32X can consume it and composite on top of it correctly. So I think using the DAC module may be out of the picture unless plugging it in bypasses the HDMI output in some way, or otherwise enables 240p RGB output.
• To bake it into the FPGA, you are talking about considerable space. Two ASICs, two SH-2s, plus DRAM/etc. With a big enough FPGA, you could probably do it. But without knowing details, I think it's very difficult to say if the Cyclone V used in the Mega SG can do it, or even if any FPGA in the price range they need for this price point would do it. I wouldn't be surprised if the 32X doubles the amount of space needed in an FPGA, if not more.

In other words, it's possible, but there's very little wiggle room in the engineering sense.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kaide

[F34R]

Ugh, sounds like we won't see the DAC until Spring of next year. Disappointed.

[Andromeda Stardust]

---------------------------

in other news, today I was waiting for the old everdrive md to flash a game when it dawned on me that the mega SG would also be *MUCH* faster at that--so there's even more benefit to me buying it. I also broke down and preordered the 8bitdo--so I'm giving them one more chance. I've been pretty much relentlessly bagging on their controllers since the last one that they sold me, but everybody else seems to love them, and I really want a wireless genesis pad. At worst, it'll still be good for slow, turn-based games for the life of its battery.

My 8bitdo SN30 Pro is amazing and it even makes an awesome Switch Pro controller. Pretty much the only way to play Donkey Kong Arcade since the official Switch Pro Dpad sux...

 

And yeah, I preordered the Genesis wireless pad. Black to match my JPN styled Mega SG...

 

Ugh, sounds like we won't see the DAC until Spring of next year. Disappointed.

Kind of moot since the stock SNES and Genesis both support rgb out? I can't even use rgb, but it be nice to hook the SNT or MSG up to the tube over composite and play light gun games.

 

All my displays are hdmi, composite, or bust. Yeah, and rf...

 

Mega SG is abbreviated MSG. Don't put it in your food. LOL!

[SegaSnatcher]

A plastic enclosure, a single 72-pin cart slot (for NES carts only, Famicom carts would be supported via a cartridge adaptor sold separately), two controller ports instead of four (four is overkill in my humble opinion, who uses all four?) and you'd probably have an attractive product much cheaper than the NT Mini. And the name "NT Micro" would fit quite well indeed.

 

After the Mega SG has been released, let's hope they'll revisit the NT Mini before moving on to another FPGA console... although I wouldn't mind a "consolized" GB/GBC/GBA, if it's doable at all. Or perhaps just offer a GB cartridge adaptor with the NT Micro.

You really think they would drop 2 controller ports and Famicom slot when the AVS has both, no don't think so. We gotta use some common sense here people.

[SegaSnatcher]

The way I see it, a further revised and cost-reduced Nt would have a speedy development cycle. If they do that instead for the next product cycle it would probably give Kevin more time to work on the firmware side of things for the existing products.

 

Not sure it would be well-received from the fans who already have an Nt Mini though. From that perspective, there would not be anything to get excited about. All signs point to a slightly revised Nt Mini instead (or first?), so I don’t think it would happen that way.

Don't worry your precious Neo-Geo is likely next now that Kevtris has completed a 68K core.

[phoenixdownita]

Don't worry your precious Neo-Geo is likely next now that Kevtris has completed a 68K core.

I want it so bad ... but I am not sure it is really in line to be next.

If Analogue were to make an FPGA version of AES they should also make the MVS version of it for all those people that wants it in their cabinet and wants to use MVS carts.

Alternatively they can build it with dual slot support (MVS and AES) but that's 4 giant connectors LOL .... maybe there's more market for the TG16/PCE who knows.

 

For sure there's plenty of opportunities to release an Atari version (2600/7800/5200 combo) and/or an all 8bit 9-pins combo (CV/Intv2/CreatiV... and maybe also 2600/7800) ... other than that I really don't know.

 

 

Or maybe now it's time for the all-in-one that covers the NtMini+SuperNt+MegaSg (Zimba3K finally).

[Pixelboy]

I want it so bad ... but I am not sure it is really in line to be next.

If Analogue were to make an FPGA version of AES they should also make the MVS version of it for all those people that wants it in their cabinet and wants to use MVS carts.

Alternatively they can build it with dual slot support (MVS and AES) but that's 4 giant connectors LOL .... maybe there's more market for the TG16/PCE who knows.

Are there actually a lot of people in North-America with collections of TG16/PCE games just waiting for an FPGA solution? The PC Engine was definitely popular in Japan, that's a fact, but the TG16 was never as popular in North-America as the Nintendo and Sega consoles from that same era. I suppose an FPGA TG16 is worth doing if it's not too much of a technical hassle for Kevtris (so the price of the unit would remain low) and if Analogue really wants to see it happen.

 

 

For sure there's plenty of opportunities to release an Atari version (2600/7800/5200 combo) and/or an all 8bit 9-pins combo (CV/Intv2/CreatiV... and maybe also 2600/7800) ... other than that I really don't know.

Since the Mega SG has DB9 connectors for the controllers, couldn't this already be done through cartridge adaptors? It all comes down to whether or not old controllers (like a ColecoVision controller for example) work on the Mega SG.

 

 

Or maybe now it's time for the all-in-one that covers the NtMini+SuperNt+MegaSg (Zimba3K finally).

Does Kev still want to do that after all the work he's put into the NT Mini, Super NT and Mega SG? I have to wonder... I wouldn't be surprised if he said "Okay, I've done what I set out to do, even if it's not as a single machine."

[killersquirel]

Don't worry your precious Neo-Geo is likely next now that Kevtris has completed a 68K core.

 

I hope you're right. I preordered the Mega SG and will totally enjoy it, but I'm really looking forward to an FPGA Neo Geo.

[LewisD]

If Analogue were to make an FPGA version of AES they should also make the MVS version of it for all those people that wants it in their cabinet and wants to use MVS carts. Alternatively they can build it with dual slot support (MVS and AES) but that's 4 giant connectors.

Another option: release one single AES console with an included MVS cartridge adapter. For arcade folks, make an optional JAMMA harness connector add-on.

Edited October 19, 2018 by LewisD

[dj_convoy]

I mean, you might be interested in that, and hell, I might be too, but that would be a super niche thing that wouldn't service all that many people. Yes, I realize they started out by putting out their consolized MVS thing (for an even smaller amount of people, surely), but I'd imagine they want to make stuff from here on in that will sell to more and more people, not less.

[RetrogamerX]

There are many ways to play Neo Geo. MVS mobo's are everywhere. imho I think PC Engine needs to be next, but if Neo Geo is next I'm ready. I have a NeoSD flash cart with the whole library waiting for it

[Toth]

Does Kev still want to do that after all the work he's put into the NT Mini, Super NT and Mega SG? I have to wonder... I wouldn't be surprised if he said "Okay, I've done what I set out to do, even if it's not as a single machine."

I get the idea he likes to be employed so it wouldn't surprise me if he continued with whatever Analogue does. I doubt he will release things on his own anymore other than updates to the current or future systems.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Toth

[seastalker]

Wow- I haven't checked in a few days. What fantastic news! I saw the Polygon links too and am surprised how often Chris Taber swore in a professional interview. My favorite comment:

 

"abstrarieAgain

I use fuck as a comma and I both noticed and was off-put by the way he was talking in this interview."

 

Anyway, if that's the price to pay for the option to get Kevtris's work, I'm in. Sega Game Gear is exciting as they are really wearing down and need super expensive McWill mods to make them enjoyable again. Hardware perfect Game Gear on modern screens is a wonderful preservation tribute to this system. Same is true for the Atari Lynx which I hope one day will have its day from a Kevtris core. TG16/PC-Engine would be great. Despite its initial popularity in some regions, it is in the retro community an ever growing interest. More people are realizing the quality of titles. Some retro players may buy something just because it has a large built in library that an everdrive can support. I'd be in for a SuperGrafx clone. I don't know what's different tech wise between Sega and NEC on their CD units, but the Turbo/PC Engine already has a FPGA adapter from Spain that supports CD: The Super SD System 3.

 

Kevtris, I thank you for the kind exchanges via email, for your work on this project, and you are such a superhero you might even be Segata Sanshiro's downfall. SEGATA! SEGATA! - At this point it wouldn't surprise me if Kevtris and Hackerman don't go back in time and nab the original Sonic The Hedgehog PROTOTYPE rom to use as the Mega Sg pack-in title. Hats off to you friend.

[CZroe]

 

 

Polygon has a more complete quote:

 

 

We'll see how quickly they do pull the trigger on the DAC. But I don't think this is gonna be the panacea for 32X like you may be hoping for. It may wind up working with the right adapters to feed the output into the 32X, but I personally would be expecting some compositing bugs (hopefully just minor ones) since the DAC is feeding off the HDMI signal and not the raw RGB, AFAIK.

I recall that Kevtris explained that the output from the HDMI port will be in a proprietary mode such that it will be indistinguishable from native RGB when coming out of the adapter. This was back when he first theorized about making this.

 

The more I think about it though, the more I realize that 32X support is caught between a rock and a hard place:

• To use the existing 32X peripherals, you must support RGB analog output that is within the Genesis spec (240p) enough that the 32X can consume it and composite on top of it correctly. So I think using the DAC module may be out of the picture unless plugging it in bypasses the HDMI output in some way, or otherwise enables 240p RGB output.

Pretty sure it does exactly this. It’s half the reason to make an analog adapter: People can use original speed/timings without worrying about frame dropping, screen tearing, or other visual artifacts since they are on an analog CRT that tolerates it the same as a real Genesis.

[CZroe]

My 8bitdo SN30 Pro is amazing and it even makes an awesome Switch Pro controller. Pretty much the only way to play Donkey Kong Arcade since the official Switch Pro Dpad sux...

 

And yeah, I preordered the Genesis wireless pad. Black to match my JPN styled Mega SG...

 

Kind of moot since the stock SNES and Genesis both support rgb out? I can't even use rgb, but it be nice to hook the SNT or MSG up to the tube over composite and play light gun games.

 

All my displays are hdmi, composite, or bust. Yeah, and rf...

 

Mega SG is abbreviated MSG. Don't put it in your food. LOL!

...but the stock consoles have other issues. Genesis in particular, with all the jailbars and audio revisions and incompatible combinations of software and hardware.

 

SNES has issues such as glitches on 1chip and poor-quality filtered RGB on the 2 and 3 chip models, sync jitter, region coding, etc.

 

I think there is enough incentive to make an analog adapter for these even just for the “quality of life” improvements Kevtris has added...

 

 

 

...and, well, you know: the jailbreak.

[Pixelboy]

Same is true for the Atari Lynx which I hope one day will have its day from a Kevtris core.

Yeah, that'd be nice. I didn't get the chance to play a lot with the Lynx as a kid, but I enjoyed the games I was able to try, even if the screen got a little blurry when things got hectic. Playing the games on TV via HDMI would fix that little problem.

 

The Lynx's hardware is a little funky though, with its dual processors. I have to wonder if current affordable FPGAs like the Cyclone V could handle it. Same goes for the Game Boy Advance, by the way. Wouldn't it be grand to have a console dedicated to putting handhelds on TV? Game Boy, Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance, Atari Lynx, Sega Game Gear, Bitcorp Gamate, Watara Supervision, Game.com, Neo Geo Pocket Color, Wonderswan... Cartridge adaptors galore!!!

 

It's nice to dream...

[CZroe]

Don't worry your precious Neo-Geo is likely next now that Kevtris has completed a 68K core.

???

 

I have said that I would prefer a Genesis if they only made one. My speculation had nothing to do with a preference.

 

That said, I do think that development of the Mega Sg would speed the development of an Analogue Ng, though there is still a lot of complexity if it’s jailbreakable in the traditional way. Just look at something like a NeoSD Pro.

[CZroe]

I want it so bad ... but I am not sure it is really in line to be next.

If Analogue were to make an FPGA version of AES they should also make the MVS version of it for all those people that wants it in their cabinet and wants to use MVS carts.

Alternatively they can build it with dual slot support (MVS and AES) but that's 4 giant connectors LOL .... maybe there's more market for the TG16/PCE who knows.

 

For sure there's plenty of opportunities to release an Atari version (2600/7800/5200 combo) and/or an all 8bit 9-pins combo (CV/Intv2/CreatiV... and maybe also 2600/7800) ... other than that I really don't know.

 

 

Or maybe now it's time for the all-in-one that covers the NtMini+SuperNt+MegaSg (Zimba3K finally).

They can easily make the slot modular where you pick your configuration when you order and the other one is available separately.

 

That said, I wouldn’t assume it’s next in the list either. By the sound of things, maintaining this pace would likely push Kev too far. The man can’t work himself to death.

 

It may be time to make some smaller stuff. No, I’m not talking about an FPGA 32X adapter or something like that, since it would easily be as difficult or more difficult than an Analogue Ng. The DAC is one good example but they may have more up their sleeve to surprise us.

[zetastrike]

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

 

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[CZroe]

I don't know what's different tech wise between Sega and NEC on their CD units, but the Turbo/PC Engine already has a FPGA adapter from Spain that supports CD: The Super SD System 3.

 

It already had another one even before that which is even closer to what Kevtris would be able to make: the FPGA-based UpperGrafx / UperGrafx UGX-02 adapter from Japan, which does all that and has DVI/HDMI output without analog conversion. Note: Don’t confuse the UGX-01 GameTechUS featured a couple years ago for the UGX-02. Though these features were originally intended for it, it ended up being for digital video only (like a Plug’n’Play Hi-Def NES).

 

I know I’ve mentioned it many times but, well, when I see SSDSys3 get mentioned where UGX-02 is even more appropriate I have to assume you didn’t know.

[Atariboy]

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

 

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If it were jailbroken and could serve as its own multicart, it would be tempting.

 

But I'm basically in agreement.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Atariboy

[CZroe]

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

 

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Analogue has never shied away from “niche”

 

...or niche + Neo Geo. Ever looked into their past products before the Analogue Nt? ...or the Analogue Nt itself? [emoji6]

 

Anyway, the cost of flash carts and hardware and games could actually be a reason to buy one (*psst* jailbreak). Like PCE/TG16, there is a clear disparity between the system’s past sales and the number of people interested. Actually, even moreso, which is why we get things like Neo Geo X Gold and Neo Geo Mini at GameStop. The fact that it was always so expensive works in favor of this eventually existing.

 

Also, there are piles of MVS carts if you actually look around. The arcade platform had an extremely long life, and they aren’t exactly loading up arcade machines these days.

 

Almost everything else you mention would be irrelevant if they partnered with SNK and bundled built-in games (like when SNK partnered with Tommo) and let’s not forget about the possibility of a JB. It would be MUCH more marketable than their premium wooden consolized MVS machines either way.

 

An SNK partnership would definitely solve the thorny BIOS issue. Universe BIOS wouldn’t help because Razoola only has the copyright to his own work. Raz’s UniBIOS is still based on SNK’s copyrighted BIOS.

 

There is an OpenNeo project mentioned on NeoDev. Furrtek, the main contributor IIRC, has been slowly replicating the various chips in FPGA.

 

Perhaps it could be made even cheaper by being made not to support carts at all. Neo-Geo CD, anyone? ...with instant loading cached to a 700MB disc image in memory that double be very useful if the system were ever, say, jail broken to run cartridge dumps? [emoji6]

 

Furrtek also has an FPGA Neo Geo CD ODE that he’s been working on. He’s demonstrated that it does work, and he did recently ship his Virtual Boy VGA mod/adapter kit.

Edited October 19, 2018 by CZroe

[zetastrike]

Analogue has never shied away from “niche”

 

...or niche + Neo Geo. Ever looked into their past products before the Analogue Nt?

 

Anyway, the cost of flash carts and hardware and games could actually be a reason to buy one (*psst* jailbreak). Like PCE/TG16, there is a clear disparity between the system’s past sales and the number of people interested. Actually, even moreso, which is why we get things like Neo Geo X Gold and Neo Geo Mini at GameStop. The fact that it was always so expensive works in favor of this eventually existing.

 

Also, there are piles of MVS carts if you actually look around. The arcade platform had an extremely long life, and they aren’t exactly loading up arcade machines these days.

 

Almost everything else you mention would be irrelevant if they partnered with SNK and bundled built-in games (like when SNK partnered with Tommo) and let’s not forget about the possibility of a JB. It would be MUCH more marketable than their premium wooden consolized MVS machines either way.

 

An SNK partnership would definitely solve the thorny BIOS issue. Universe BIOS wouldn’t help because Razoola only has the copyright to his own work. Raz’s UniBIOS is still based on SNK’s copyrighted BIOS.

 

There is an OpenNeo project mentioned on NeoDev. Furrtek, the main contributor IIRC, has been slowly replicating the various chips in FPGA.

 

Perhaps it could be made even cheaper by being made not to support carts at all. Neo-Geo CD, anyone? ...with instant loading cached to a 700MB disc image in memory that double be very useful if the system were ever, say, jail broken to run cartridge dumps?

 

Furrtek also has an FPGA Neo Geo CD ODE that he’s been working on. He’s demonstrated that it does work, and he did recently ship his Virtual Boy VGA mod/adapter kit.

The Neo Geo is just not popular enough for a stand alone system, not with SO many easier, cheaper ways to play the handful of games that have any name recognition. The PC Engine console is a non-starter for the same reason. The cost of R&D and manufacturing vs the number of people who would actually want it would never be worth it. It's easy for people like us to forget how much the audience for old consoles falls off a cliff if it's not Nintendo, Sony, or the Genesis. Analogue is a small outfit that can't afford a flop. A Neo Geo console would only sell to hardcore nerds. A Genesis, SNES, or NES console would attract normies and people with a casual interest.

 

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