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FPGA Based Videogame System


kevtris

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

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  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...


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In that case, I do suggest having a look at these two:

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

http://zxuno.speccy.org/index_e.shtml

 

Computers are quite well supported there.

Consoles are hit and miss though, so the NT is a safer choice for the short term.

Neither of those have HDMI and also fall pretty short of being able to emulate half the 16-bit systems unfortunately. MiST (Cyclone III, 25K LE) was designed for emulating an Atari ST, while ZXuno was meant for emulating the ZX Spectrum. IMO a lot of these single-target solutions are barking up the wrong tree when they don't include HDMI on the board, nor do they provide any meaningful way of connecting generic USB controllers/keyboards/mice to devices that are primarily computers and just work. With consoles, at least you can get away with "any 2 button controller" for pretty much all the 8-bit systems.

 

This is why I think the Z3K is actually what people want, and if everyone working on FPGA-based computer/consoles could focus on one standard FPGA PCB, we could bring down the costs of the FPGA's in quantities.

Edited by Kismet
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Hello kevtris I just received my NT Mini and I have to say its an excellent piece of hardware. Every game I have tried has worked flawlessly. I do have a couple of dumb questions however. When its off is the light on the retro receiver supposed to stay on? Also I cant get the select and a combo to power on the console. I am using the Jailbreak firmware. Any idea what i am doing wrong?

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IMO a lot of these single-target solutions are barking up the wrong tree when they don't include HDMI on the board,

nor do they provide any meaningful way of connecting generic USB controllers/keyboards/mice to devices that are primarily computers and just work. With consoles, at least you can get away with "any 2 button controller" for pretty much all the 8-bit systems.

 

The MiST has four USB ports to support generic controllers/keyboards/mice.

 

And with more than 40 cores out there it's hardly a single target solution.

 

The ZxUno is newer and has less core offerings (and no USB) but I bring it up because it is cheaper.

 

I'll grant you the HDMI except it's nothing an external upscaler can't solve (and at the current price of the NT mini that setup is still cheaper).

 

There is also the FPGA Arcade Replay which has HDMI but is hard to get. It deserves a mention though because its creator has open sourced several cores ported to the other two.

 

This is why I think the Z3K is actually what people want, and if everyone working on FPGA-based computer/consoles could focus on one standard FPGA PCB, we could bring down the costs of the FPGA's in quantities.

The MiST is right now the most widely supported PCB out there with many developers contributing to it. By that logic people should focus on it and squeeze out as much as possible from it. It won't do everything, no, but it does a lot.

 

As for cost, I doubt one can beat the cost of a training board such as the DE1 SoC at $250 for 85K LE and most of what one would need: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&No=836

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Kevtris' work and I'm excited about the Z3K, but seeing some comments here I feel it's good to give a bit more awareness of what already exists and showcase the fantastic work being done by a lot of open-source HDL developers.

 

Here's a list of what already runs in the MiST (the 40+ cores), although the list is already obsolete as a couple of guys are adding arcade cores right now:

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/CoreStatus

Edited by Newsdee
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This is why I think the Z3K is actually what people want, and if everyone working on FPGA-based computer/consoles could focus on one standard FPGA PCB, we could bring down the costs of the FPGA's in quantities.

 

I think that the hardware out there now is insufficient. Woefully insufficient. I also think that current in-development projects are lacking. The spec needs to be much more than what's being currently bandied about. If we can get a capable system I think it'll become the defacto standard we all want. All by itself. Just like magic. Just like x86 and early PCs. Obviously not as pervasive and ready to take over the world as the PC; but instead as a standard for within classic computing and retrogaming circles.

 

Some points of note:

 

FPGA is rather new in the collective consciousness of classic & retro gamers. They might have been around for 10+ years with single arcade game implementations, but those were demos and proof-of-concept projects. First now these rigs are they becoming practical gaming devices.

 

I strongly believe, and I can't emphasize this enough, that any new hardware coming out should be over provisioned in terms of LE. 50k LE is rather small imho. 100k would be nice. If it doubles the cost of the chip, so frakking what?? Eventually there will be teams working on cores and suddenly even 100k will seem "just enough". This will help establish a board as a standard. And standards are everything. It's the only sure-fire way to attract other developers.

 

Furthermore any new project should support tight integration and 2-way communication with whatever PC platform is in vogue at the time. There are a lot of supporting accessories, amenities, and auxiliary functions that are already available on the PC in many forms. Things like file management, core management, debugging, and more. I would have liked to say build it on a PC plug-in card, but that won't work. People want stand-alone capability and not everyone has a PCIe slot in the house. So hi-speed USB will have to suffice.

 

Which more or less leads to this point. Intel and others now mix FPGA with their mainstream cores. FPGA is becoming popular in datacenters for power reduction because a job-specific algorithm can devised and run at lower power than on general purpose CPU. That aside, the point is that this mix of FPGA + CPU is becoming more mainstream. Not everything need be done on the array, but balanced between it and traditional CPU.

 

Once you start looking beyond PSX2 class hardware it's definitely time to include dedicated chips on the board, like memory and GPU. PSX2 isn't going to fit on today's arrays, not ones that can be afforded by the gamer hobbyist.

 

Speaking of GPU's, most are now highly programmable and can output all sorts of styles and flavors of graphics with all the nuances to draw classic systems' output displays. A separate GPU for this could be a good idea as it frees up the array. And remember, we don't need anything more than composite and hdmi.

 

And what about a buffered output bus to cater to the hardware enthusiasts (of the classic machines). A means of having real serial & parallel ports replicated. Make it a hundred pins - this will cover the internal and external expansion busses of all the classics and then some. Now we can connect legacy peripherals to the system. Things that would plug into internal expansion slots. Interface cards and the like.. "Adapters" and "modules" would NOT be provided. But pinouts and specs would be published. This would allow anyone to make pass-throughs and connectors.

 

Finally I believe that any new rig coming out should be spec'd to have the power and capability to handle a PSX2, barely. That's the inflection point. Anything below is covered with ease. Anything above is not needed, yet.

 

---

 

You know you want something of that scope and capability. And it would certainly require a small 3 or 4 man team to get it all done in a reasonable amount of time. Excluding core development - that can take years to get each one perfect. In fact it is most important to get the hardware out in the field and keep it open. In time things will get developed for it, not unlike the early days of the PC.

 

In the end it would be similar to a MiST on steroids. A lot more of everything.

 

This is an extravagent solution, highly desirable, in-depth.. Not so much the hardware, but the software and tying it all together. And thus it would come with a grand price, too.

Edited by Keatah
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Some games require the Japanese BIOS like Phantasy Star, others don't. Wonder Boy III is just a special case that doesn't work.

Do you have the ROM for the Japanese version of Phantasy Star? Because I have the US one and it only works if I select the "No BIOS" option.

 

Speaking of Phantasy Star, how exactly does dumping the RAM work? I'll save the game, then same the RAM, but when I select "continue" the next time I load up the ROM, it just starts from the game's beginning.

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First off THANK YOU SO MUCH Kevtris!

Amazing work!

 

Been away from these forums so long the system didn't have my account info anymore!

 

And now noob questions!

 

I can't get my NT Mini to see Famicom Disk System games. They're set up as .FDS files and work fine if I play them from my Everdrive but when I put them on the SD card it acts as though the folders are empty.

Do I need to rename them or something simple like that?

 

I've also noticed a few people have speculated about it running TG16 games.

I've also noticed Kevtris hasn't really talked about it.

Is it really a possibility?

 

 

Any way around it I loved my NT Mini when it arrived and then Kevtris popped up and gave us even more!

My head nearly asplode!

 

So thanks again Kevtris!

May your Yellow Box of Glory never fade!

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Loving my NT Mini quite a bit! Found some issues, all minor stuff.

 

There's a chinese pirate of Pokemon Yellow for Famicom which actually loads in the NES core, and the intro of the game plays out, but the moment you step outside your house, the game immediately jumps back to the title screen as if it reset. I saw earlier in the thread that someone reported a Final Fantasy 7 rom doing the same thing when entering the game, and from what I can tell, both use the exact same board! Certainly not a big deal but it'd be cool to play.

 

Next is (maybe?) a minor visual bug with Battletoads. This was loaded with a checksum verified No-intro ROM in the NES core. I noticed during the ending sequence the ship glitches out for a few frames, you can see the effect on my stream here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/122438610?t=01h05m11s. I skipped to the relevant time, just wait a few seconds into the clip :) I've played through the game very many times on a Hi-Def modded AV Famicom and on an NES + CRT TV and haven't seen it do that before. Maybe it can happen on an NES though? I'll play through it again on the NT Mini tomorrow and see if it happens again.

 

Lastly, Huge Insect has graphical garbage while the bugs are flying around in game. I know that this is due to the game depending on rev G specific behavior that corrupts the OAMADDR register on writes, and it's definitely not behavior we 'want' 99.9999% of the time. Maybe a switch could be added for it? I'm probably not going to play Huge Insect much so I don't care much, but I figured it deserves to be documented :)

 

Thanks for everything kevtris! This is my favorite console by far now, been playing it hours every day.

Yeah I know about the pokemon issue. As for huge insect, I actually support the sprite doodad- the game won't start at all unless you do (the game starts, but enemies never appear). I think the garbage is uninitialized nametable data. The game you play before playing huge insect changes the garbage that appears. Some times I played it there wasn't any. It could be a mirroring issue- I haven't checked it out yet.

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First off THANK YOU SO MUCH Kevtris!

Amazing work!

 

Been away from these forums so long the system didn't have my account info anymore!

 

And now noob questions!

 

I can't get my NT Mini to see Famicom Disk System games. They're set up as .FDS files and work fine if I play them from my Everdrive but when I put them on the SD card it acts as though the folders are empty.

Do I need to rename them or something simple like that?

 

I've also noticed a few people have speculated about it running TG16 games.

I've also noticed Kevtris hasn't really talked about it.

Is it really a possibility?

 

 

Any way around it I loved my NT Mini when it arrived and then Kevtris popped up and gave us even more!

My head nearly asplode!

 

So thanks again Kevtris!

May your Yellow Box of Glory never fade!

Yeah FDS isn't supported. As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

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Yeah FDS isn't supported. As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

I'm not sure what you are referring to but I'm sorry you were treated poorly. If it is a possible core to add I'll be happy whenever that day arrives because I'm sure my tg-16 will stop working someday and the video output on it is terrible stock.

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Yeah FDS isn't supported. As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

Do your thing and do whatever feels right to you!

 

I already got way more than I bargained for when I ordered mine and I'm thankful for ANYTHING extra we're getting!

 

Just want you to know all the work you've already done is REALLY appreciated!

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Yeah FDS isn't supported. As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

Aw man, TG-16 is the dream for this console. WHO DO WE HAVE TO BLAME FOR THIS?

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Would it be possible to run MiST cores on the Nt Mini? The Nt mini looks more capable but MiST has more cores. NEC PC Engine, Sega Genesis, Amiga, Commodore 64, Apple II and many others.

If the makers of the NT mini allow third party development by publishing the API or somebody hacks it to allow anybody to upload their core, it's possible to port them yes. It doesn't seem more capable but if it has 25K LE it's comparable (e.g. it might not be able to run the Amiga AGA core and I'm not sure how you would put a keyboard, but for most cores there's plenty of room). It also helps that both use Altera Cyclone chips as the development toolchain is the same.

 

But in these things, possible is not the same as happening. Somebody in Japan has developed a SNES core but he's not sharing it (neither source or making a PCB to run it) so for users like you and me it's just a YouTube video.

 

If I were to make an analogy, the NT mini and Z3K are commercial offerings like Magic Engine, Bleem! or the NES Classic were commercial emulators. Some people might end up hacking them and doing more. The MiST and co. are more like MAME where everybody can go and make changes or port to their hardware. A difference with MAME though is that making a new core to the MiST doesn't require you to open source the code as long as the code is originally your own.

Edited by Newsdee
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As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

I have no idea what happened but I wonder if it's the same reason why some others have stopped work on the open-source PCE core. Like the NeoGeo it's become a bit of an elite console so I can see some kinds of people getting very annoyed at clones or mainstream emulators. But honestly the cat is already out of the bag, people need to enjoy their hardware, not see it as investments.

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So is there a tip-jar or something for Kevtris? I don't know if he has a Patreon, but I'd be happy to show my appreciation and maybe buy the guy some beers or something for his obvious hard work..

 

We need a 'throw money in large chunks at Kevtris' fund for developing the Zimba 3000. I think if half of what he has claimed is true, and it's been a while, and it's going to be a while, what can we do to speed up development? Throw money at him I say!

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We need a 'throw money in large chunks at Kevtris' fund for developing the Zimba 3000. I think if half of what he has claimed is true, and it's been a while, and it's going to be a while, what can we do to speed up development? Throw money at him I say!

 

Well I'd buy that thing anyways (it sounded awesome back when he talked about it a long time ago on Jason's YT channel).. I just meant as a thank-you..

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Can someone recommend what I would be good to use so I can play some games on my Sony CRT? It has Composite/Component and RF. I'd rather not use RF, but if that's the only option... also, what would I change as far as the video options to make sure the picture is fitting the screen properly?

 

Love my NT Mini, and I am very appreciative of the work Kevtris is putting out for it.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

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I have no idea what happened but I wonder if it's the same reason why some others have stopped work on the open-source PCE core. Like the NeoGeo it's become a bit of an elite console so I can see some kinds of people getting very annoyed at clones or mainstream emulators. But honestly the cat is already out of the bag, people need to enjoy their hardware, not see it as investments.

Interesting point. I think they're totally separate markets. There are people who want fidelity over all. And there are people who want nostalgia. Some people (myself included) want both but understand that they cannot exist in the same machine. Even if you mod original hardware, it's not the same experience you had as a kid playing over RF or composite. Nobody back then talked about scan lines or number of sprites. I think collectors who get mad at the fact that emulators or "clone consoles" (I hate that term) exist are missing the point. But that's just me.

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Yeah FDS isn't supported. As for TG-16, let's just say that some people in the "community" have sapped any desire for implementing the TG-16 any time soon. After the way I got treated there, I am not going to bother implementing it at least for awhile. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Darn thats really too bad. TG-16/PCE is my all time favorite. Totally respect your decision though, and the NT Mini is already an amazing gift. As others have mentioned if there is any way we can "tip" for the ongoing work I would be totally in for contributing.

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Would it be possible to run MiST cores on the Nt Mini? The Nt mini looks more capable but MiST has more cores. NEC PC Engine, Sega Genesis, Amiga, Commodore 64, Apple II and many others.

 

There's two issues for doing that:

a) How many LE/blockmemory is available

b) Recompiling Cyclone III FPGA to Cyclone V

 

I believe the latter is easy to do, but you'd still need to know what to connect the pins from the emulated cpu to. Like you can't just download the MiST core and run it in the NT Mini's core list, because there are differences beyond just the FPGA itself (see https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/Pinsfor the pins on the MiST.) The HDMI is implemented on the FPGA in the NT Mini, while the MiST uses an ARM cpu for SD card and i/o (joysticks, midi, etc)

 

This is what I meant in an earlier post about standardizing on a PCB. MiST doesn't have HDMI, ZXUno doesn't have HDMI or USB, FPGA Replay doesn't have HDMI (has DVI though) but it seems abandoned.

 

There's also Mega65 (A C64 FPGA)

 

 

The Terrasic development boards also tend to have worse issues with the onboard i/o (take note that every student project that has tried to emulate a console has to make a compromise to work with either the onboard VGA/HDMI or AC'97 codec)

DE0 - Cyclone III 15,408 LE, VGA(4-bit), no USB, no HDMI, $120

DE0-CV - Cyclone V, 49000 LE, VGA (4-bit), no USB, no HDMI, $150

DE1 - Cyclone II, 20,000 LE, VGA(4-bit), no USB, no HDMI, $150

DE2-115 - Cyclone IV, 114480 LE, VGA, USB, GigE, DVI available on separate HSMC card (This Development board is designed for prototyping smartphones apparently) $495

Cyclone V GX starter- 77000 LE, HDMI, USB $180

 

The Arria and Stratix III/IV/V FPGA's are out of the price range for pretty much everyone.

 

On Xilinx side

Artix-7 35T Arty - $99, 33208 LE, 10/100 Ethernet, no video output at all (arduino support), USB

Digilent Artix-7 XC7A100T Nexys 4 - 101440LE, VGA, Ethernet, USB, SD-card, $320

Spartan 6 SP601 - 14579 LE, Ethernet, USB, no video output (HSMC cards available,) $395

 

As you can tell, there is no standard set of i/o between anything.

 

Anyway, what kevtris has proposed in the z3k thus far is more flexible as an 8-bit or 16-bit FPGA-based console or computer with lag-free HDMI output, it just depends on the ability to connect original carts/controllers or not. The key feature with two FPGA's is one of those can always run a line-by-line scaler.

 

Most of these Development boards supply basic VGA (even on MiST's board) at most, so you're not going to get a lag-free output since most LCD screens are going to run that through their upscaler/framebuffer. The development boards don't have enough i/o pins to interface with cartridges, especially something like the NeoGeo which has 240. Even right now I'm not sure how kevtris would be able to do it short of some kind of serialized i/o.

 

When people start suggesting 32-bit systems, that starts going outside the scope of what I believe kevtris is trying to do. Sure something like a 68060 or 80386 could be done, but then we end up at cross-purposes like what happens with DOSBOX, where people ask how to get Windows 95 running, when that was always beyond the scope of emulation (DOS software because it emulates a DOS environment) or trying to emulate the control interface for industrial SCADA interfaces from it. Basically, yes, stuff like this could be done, but that really calls for a different project entirely. As someone mentioned about emulating the Amiga, it's entirely possible to get a 68060's performance out of the 68000 core on a FPGA, but then you'd break all the software that expects it to run at the stock clock speed. And for what it's worth, I doubt a 32-bit system could be built cheaply as a single FPGA.

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Yeah I know about the pokemon issue. As for huge insect, I actually support the sprite doodad- the game won't start at all unless you do (the game starts, but enemies never appear). I think the garbage is uninitialized nametable data. The game you play before playing huge insect changes the garbage that appears. Some times I played it there wasn't any. It could be a mirroring issue- I haven't checked it out yet.

Ah just making sure :)

 

Follow up on the battletoads glitch shown, 99% sure now that it's just a game bug that happened to show up right there. I tried for hours to reproduce it today because I had a bunch of free time, and couldn't get it to happen at all! Battletoads is known for being pretty buggy so I think it's safe to say that this isn't an issue with the NT Mini!

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, also, related to Huge Insect. It seems to do a similar thing to the NT Mini on my Hi-Def AV Famicom unless I uncheck a box that says "New PPU Fixes"! Not sure if that's helpful to you. PPU revision is G

Edited by rezb1t
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