emkay Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) If you want, we could discuss some points here. I really like the Music of the Ocean Loader 2, the remixes, not the SID original. You shouldn't expect a SID sounding tune anyways. POKEY has it's limits, and there are 2 channels (filter) that allow to play similar sounding sounds through the octaves. At least the tunes show how "endless" the variations of sound can be. If Atari had chosen to give the chip a better frequency resolution, it would have beaten soundchips of the early 90s in wave creation... for music... The real flaw is to find sounds that keep their shape at the right frequency. So you have to chose between "better pitch" or "better sounding", if the pitch is too off. And, well, the SID original has it's "pitch flaws" aswell. Possibly caused by any filtering, when the peaks of the modulation change the "picture" of a note. And sometimes you realize it by simple "off" moments. So, my guess is, what helps on the POKEY to enhance the pitch resolution, causes problems with SID. Of course, back in the time every SID tune made people jawdropping by the "sweet sound varations" ... I wonder what people had to say about such tune played by POKEY, back in 1979 The "arpeggio" part in the SID tune has those "bizarre" pitches in it, enabling them to blend between higher and lower pitch. No idea , how to resemble them with the 1.79MHz sounds. And, btw: Check the video from 2:08 to 2:28. The sound pitch is very high for the 15kHz Mode . No sqweek, no pitch jump... just the instrument with the same face from the lowest to the highest note. Edited November 20, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Some retune ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 If you think, a quick edit for this works... you might think wrong... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 And here you can listen to my version of the Ocean Loader 2 tune. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) And here you can listen to my version of the Ocean Loader 2 tune. Arpeggios were clearly better. Could be interesting to mix generators, to reach something like the filter sweep there... Edited November 23, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Another one This time I'm using mixed arpeggios (inspired by Analmux' version). While one generator sounds too stiff and hasn't enough range for lower notes, the other generator has no impression... Played together in some variations, thing get more interesting. There is also this "bizarreness" in the Arpeggios, as with the SID Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I really appreciate you enthusiasm, but do you really not hear that most of your experiments are badly out of tune? The bass line in the last sample isn't tuned to match the lead. If the chip isn't able to produce matching frequencies you should abstain from using those. It's really stressful to the ears and Pokey appears in a bad light - which is (I guess) the opposite of what you intend... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 I really appreciate you enthusiasm, but do you really not hear that most of your experiments are badly out of tune? The bass line in the last sample isn't tuned to match the lead. Is it? Saying "this , or that" is out of tune, is very simple. You could put that term to every Music, you don't like. Particular the last tune play 3 voices that play nicely to the ears, well, and don't break the ears after 3 seconds, just like most new POKEY tunes. If you don't like the "musical" adjustment, well, feel free to do some yourself, but be patient, it might be out of tune... And, it is always interesting to hear what people might think is "in tune". Some example would show, why people don't like the arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Saying "this , or that" is out of tune, is very simple. You could put that term to every Music, you don't like. No you couldn't - not if the music you don't like is demonstrably in tune. If you leave a guitar propped up against the wall for six months and then play it without first tuning the strings: I think that's the aural effect which is being discussed here. I'm a guitar player, btw, so while I'm not able to program chip tunes, I'm able to discuss tuning with a degree of insight. Anyway: as Irgendwer says, these remarks are not meant to discourage, but to help improve. But progress would depend on you being able to perceive and acknowledge the flaws being discussed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Anyway: as Irgendwer says, these remarks are not meant to discourage, but to help improve. But progress would depend on you being able to perceive and acknowledge the flaws being discussed. What to say? I'm using the possiblities of given hard- and software to create most audible sounds. I have written enough about that in the past. And, for sure, I'd given much payment for such tunes in Atari Games and Demos ... instead of ...: http://asma.atari.org/asmadb/search.php?play=1020 .... for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 And that'S "almost" the preset. Does it sound better to you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Would you say this is in tune? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 If you want a "tune" to be completed , you have to adjust the tuning from the start of a tune to the end of a tune similar. If you don't do that, the listener finds a good part at the start of a tune and during the replay, he gets a hit in the neck by a totally wrong song-flow... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Or this one.. Done on the real thing without any emulation issues on a native POKEY Tracker... and uses the "better" 64kHz mode... It sounds nice at the start, then it turns slightly weird and kills everything at 1:42 ... Edited November 26, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Anyway: as Irgendwer says, these remarks are not meant to discourage, but to help improve. But progress would depend on you being able to perceive and acknowledge the flaws being discussed. That's ABSOLUTELY my point. Edited November 26, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 It sounds nice at the start, then it turns slightly weird and kills everything at 1:42 ... What goes wrong at 1:42? Around 1:52 we get the major third of a G chord approached from a semitone higher, which is perfectly reasonable in Bb and adds colour. Nothing "out of tune" about it. There appear to be twelve notes evenly dispersed across an octave, at least. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 What goes wrong at 1:42? Around 1:52 we get the major third of a G chord approached from a semitone higher, which is perfectly reasonable in Bb and adds colour. Nothing "out of tune" about it. There appear to be twelve notes evenly dispersed across an octave, at least.See the point. The whole Song is broken there and you tell me something about G chord from a semitone higher. So, I may ask, why don't you recognize the broken Song ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Sorry - I must return to planet Earth now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Sorry - I must return to planet Earth now. I never left it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Just compare.... also POKEY , just full CPU load.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyrATuXj8XI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Well why don't you explain to us what's broken at 1:42, if it's not the introduction of non-diatonic intervals which troubles (bearing in mind we're supposed to be discussing pitch and tuning issues)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Well why don't you explain to us what's broken at 1:42, if it's not the introduction of non-diatonic intervals which troubles (bearing in mind we're supposed to be discussing pitch and tuning issues)? It's not my stoke now. But "tuning issues" isn't something else than "detuned"... and that's very heavy detuned. Using " 2 Operator sounds would solve that problem. And, that's another point: There is no software available to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Short intermezzo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) I'm quite sure (without wanting to sound rude) you have an other tone perception. I know at least one other person also with 'other ears', allowing him to detect if a song is MP3 compressed or not. The example songs may have the one or other flaw, but even the 'One man and his droid'-song is not out-of-tune and 'smuggles' appropriate bass sounds into the song. The song from your post #87 is heavily detuned, since the tracks seem to use a not common key (Tonart). If you would send me the source I could try to fix that. Edited November 26, 2015 by Irgendwer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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