Donkey Kong Junior XL vs. 7800

[Mister-VCS]

Why is the XL/XE computer-version so ugly?

I thought the Atari 7800 wasn't a big step up to the 8bit computer line -

but if you compare this to versions...

 

[Tempest]

I think part of the 'ugliness' is the color pallet that was used. I wonder if that could be fixed somehow?

 

The game itself plays well enough, but it's a bit choppy in the movement IMHO. Part of the reason for this is probably due to the short development cycle. The original programmer tried to do it in FORTH but was fired after performance issues so Jeff Milhorn & Kevin Sacher had to pick the project up and code it from scratch in a short amount of time. I think they did a great job considering what they were up against.

[+save2600]

 

Noticed there's no leaves on the A8 vines either. Would love to see a DK Jr. Arcade for the 2600 someday too.

[+darryl1970]

s_DonkeyKongJunior_2.png

 

Noticed there's no leaves on the A8 vines either. Would love to see a DK Jr. Arcade for the 2600 someday too.

The 2600 is pretty incredible for the 2600. lol. Leaves on the 26 would be a pretty big accomplishment, because the 2600 doesn't have screen RAM and render tiles like other systems.

 

I think part of the 'ugliness' is the color pallet that was used. I wonder if that could be fixed somehow?

 

The game itself plays well enough, but it's a bit choppy in the movement IMHO. Part of the reason for this is probably due to the short development cycle. The original programmer tried to do it in FORTH but was fired after performance issues so Jeff Milhorn & Kevin Sacher had to pick the project up and code it from scratch in a short amount of time. I think they did a great job considering what they were up against.

Wow! I never knew that. It is a pretty complete version considering. It is a shame they couldn't impliment a software sprite, like Donkey Kong. The choppiness comes from using plain redefined character sets for the enemies. They have to move 8-pixels at a time. I think they set Junior to match.

 

Always thought this would be a challenging game to program though!

 

Why is the XL/XE computer-version so ugly?

I thought the Atari 7800 wasn't a big step up to the 8bit computer line -

but if you compare this to versions...

 

251040-donkey-kong-junior-atari-8-bit-screenshot-starting-level-1.png 54931-donkey-kong-junior-atari-7800-screenshot-gameplay-on-the-first.gif

The 7800 isn't a big step up. It's kind of a step down in some ways. The sprite system is great, but games often lack that arcade feel. Almost as if Maria is sucking up most of the processing power. However, it is a step up in the ability to display more colors on screen. It has more available sprites and color palettes for those sprites.

 

I think the focus was place on getting the A8 play ability and less on the graphics. It's not bad, but it does look rushed. Gameplay is still a little more accurate than than the 7800 though, although a little jerky.

[Mister-VCS]

I think part of the 'ugliness' is the color pallet that was used. I wonder if that could be fixed somehow?

 

The game itself plays well enough, but it's a bit choppy in the movement IMHO. Part of the reason for this is probably due to the short development cycle. The original programmer tried to do it in FORTH but was fired after performance issues so Jeff Milhorn & Kevin Sacher had to pick the project up and code it from scratch in a short amount of time. I think they did a great job considering what they were up against.

 

...and this version is too difficult and unfair (screen 2) - played this version today on my PAL 600XL - the playfield is too small and is hard to read your own score (same as Robotron:2084)-

7800 DKJR is much more fun IMO.

[+Defender_2600]

The 7800 isn't a big step up. It's kind of a step down in some ways. The sprite system is great, but games often lack that arcade feel.

 

 

KevinMos3

 

Donkey Kong Junior (Sprite & Color Edit)

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/229065-donkey-kong-junior-sprite-color-edit/?p=3080537

 

[+darryl1970]

 

 

KevinMos3

 

Donkey Kong Junior (Sprite & Color Edit)

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/229065-donkey-kong-junior-sprite-color-edit/?p=3080537

 

This is nice work. The 7800 can definitely polish the graphics up. The game play suffers a lot. I am NOT SAYING the A8 doesn't suffer worse, but it's a different suffer. The A8 actually captured some of the elements more accurately. The clunky control overshadows that.

[+darryl1970]

 

...and this version is too difficult and unfair (screen 2) - played this version today on my PAL 600XL - the playfield is too small and is hard to read your own score (same as Robotron:2084)-

7800 DKJR is much more fun IMO.

I agree that the A8 suffers a LOT in game play, but I think the 7800 suffers just as hard, but differently.

The 7800 can clean up the graphics better, but I think the A8 could come pretty close with some tweaking.

 

However, the 7800 has fewer on screen enemies, and it feels like I am playing in quicksand. Jr. doesn't descend down the vines quickly like he should, the fruits fall choppy, and the sound makes the hair stand up on my neck. When he jumps on the 7800, it feels like slow motion, and it still seems to jerk. It suffers from the common poor 7800 animation. Almost as if Maria is taking up too many cycles to allow smooth gameplay. The A8 feels like it's going TOO fast. There's room to throttle.

 

The A8 is unforgivable in it's control. The screen does feel small, but I think that is due to the the fact that they programmed his walk to not be precise.

They DID get the bananas in the right place -- Jr can hit them from the left, it has the correct US screen order, it's moving the correct amount of enemies around on screen without a sluggish feel to it, but it's a little ugly in areas and the control is unforgiving.

 

It's honestly hard for me to discern which one I dislike more. I see more potential in the A8 as far as game play, if the controls would be tightened up The graphics could be tweaked too. I see the 7800 as CAPABLE of mimicking the graphics better, but I think it will always have that sluggish gameplay feel. Kind of how Donkey Kong XM looks about as perfect as can be, has a lot of the elements, but still has the jerky sprite animation found in games like DK, DKjr, Mario Bros, Galaga, etc.

[Tempest]

My biggest complaint with the 8-bit version is the jumping on the first screen. Jumping from those island platforms is iffy at best and usually you get to close to the edge and fall in the water on that first one. If juniors movement could be refined a bit and the colors tweaked, I think it could be an excellent version.

 

DKjr will always be the one game I wanted as a kid that my parents never got me.

[Jinks]

I really don't get all the 7800 jerkyness some people feel? Maybe the lack of sprite flicker is messing with people's eyes? I have an a8 as well and never noticed once about the silky smooth controls that set it apart. I do see lack of colors on the a8 and more blocky graphics with that pokey sound that blows the graphics out of the water as a mismatch. The 7800 is the opposite graphics without great sound. I love dk pk/xm! I just suck at it. Too old too slow.

[BillyHW]

ColecoVision FTW! **Ducks**

Edited November 11, 2015 by BillyHW

[gozar]

I prefer the A8 version over the 7800 and the Colecovision. For some reason the 7800 version screams low resolution to me, like looking at a Vic 20, but I'm assuming that's because of the score.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[+darryl1970]

I prefer the A8 version over the 7800 and the Colecovision. For some reason the 7800 version screams low resolution to me, like looking at a Vic 20, but I'm assuming that's because of the score.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes. Not sure why they chose a BRICK pattern, but there's a lot of good to work with. Jr.'s movement on the first screen just needs tweaked.

[Mister-VCS]

I like the intermissions in the XL/XE version - but it is very hard to read your own score in this version (like Robotron:2084).

[DracIsBack]

For some reason the 7800 version screams low resolution to me, like looking at a Vic 20, but I'm assuming that's because of the score.

 

Huh?

 

[Jinks]

Actually the vic 20 last dtage DK kill animation is the most realistic instead of everything just dissappearing.. It is funny how every version of every game has something on the next. Can never suck totally.

[+darryl1970]

I prefer the A8 version over the 7800 and the Colecovision. For some reason the 7800 version screams low resolution to me, like looking at a Vic 20, but I'm assuming that's because of the score.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am working on cleaning up the A8 version with Playsoft. I think the A8 has a lot of potential.

Of course, the controls are still touchy and take getting used to, but eh..

[+darryl1970]

I really don't get all the 7800 jerkyness some people feel? Maybe the lack of sprite flicker is messing with people's eyes? I have an a8 as well and never noticed once about the silky smooth controls that set it apart. I do see lack of colors on the a8 and more blocky graphics with that pokey sound that blows the graphics out of the water as a mismatch. The 7800 is the opposite graphics without great sound. I love dk pk/xm! I just suck at it. Too old too slow.

The 7800 has the SAME "blocky" graphics. It just has more colors. That's why I was so disappointed. It has a crippled 320 mode that's never used, just as the A8's also have a 320 mode. Unfortunately, the A8 320 mode is MORE crippled in some ways, due to lack of color.

 

The problem with the 7800 is that the controls are often sluggish, and semi-complex math (for 1980s) create UGLY patterns. Maria takes up so many processing cycles, the aliens in Galaga appear to fly in a staircase pattern. Mario in Donkey Kong can't seem to get a smooth sine wave jump. It often looks as if frames are skipped (higher Galaga levels, Mario Bros jump, etc). Games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong XM really tighten things up, but the controls still see to feel laggy. I often wonder if it's the lack of Pokey to handle the inputs.

 

The A8 and 7800 have the exact same resolution, so that didn't really make sense. It just sounded defensive and angry. I am not trying to trash the 7800; I am just sharing why I am so disappointed. There are some games like Joust, which do not appear to have much lag and do run smoothly. My guess is that more moving objects and game logic comes at a cost. Games like A8 Defender and 5200 Centipede fly along at arcade speeds with many moving objects. They have an arcade feel, there's no flicker, and they are actually pushing software sprites. The software sprites do have visual issues when overlapping (Donkey Kong Barrels), but they work. The interrupts allow plenty of processing power to handle this. One would think that would slow the game down, but it doesn't.

 

I like the concept of Maria, but I think it was poorly delivered, and I think including 2600 backwards compatibility crippled what could have been a step up from the NES, instead of a step below. Still, the A8 is in the same boat, so I see the 7800 and A8 more as apple oranges than one being better. I think they both have strengths and weaknesses, and I like them both. Unfortunately, the 7800 had some poor developers working on it.

 

I think the 7800 can outshine the A8's in certain situations (Frogger 320 mode) when using its strengths. I just think the A8 can outshine 7800 in other cases (a lot of fast-moving "smart" enemies and geometrical patterns).

 

But when done right (see below), they are very close. It's pointless to completely bash one over the other.

 

7800 A8 revised.

 

[Jinks]

Sorry I should not be allowed to use the internet most days. I have a 600xl with sio to bt and all the fixings and I do enjoy playing a8 now and then.

[+Defender_2600]

The 7800 has the SAME "blocky" graphics. It just has more colors. That's why I was so disappointed. ...

 

The A8 and 7800 have the exact same resolution, so that didn't really make sense. ...

 

Therefore... the EGA standard (1984) just has more colors than the CGA standard (1981) ...

 

The 7800 160 mode (1.7 NTSC pixel aspect ratio ) can display a large number of color and an enormous number of sprites on the screen, each sprite/ tile can use from 3 to _12_ colors plus transparency _without limits of size (great flexibility)_ and flickering absent. And without tricks.

 

 

For instance, 7800 Ninja Golf (Dragon Boss) :

 

[+darryl1970]

 

Therefore... the EGA standard (1984) just has more colors than the CGA standard (1981) ...

 

The 7800 160 mode (1.7 NTSC pixel aspect ratio ) can display a large number of color and an enormous number of sprites on the screen, each sprite/ tile can use from 3 to _12_ colors plus transparency _without limits of size (great flexibility)_ and flickering absent. And without tricks.

 

 

For instance, 7800 Ninja Golf (Dragon Boss) :

 

Yes. This is an impressive game for the 7800. The additional colors make a huge difference.\

 

I think another reason why the 160mode on the A8's are perceived as blocky, is because the "players" are limited to 8-bits wide. With the already limited number, it's costly to use two players side-by-side (like DK Jr. in A8 DK Jr., which actually uses all four players). More often, programmers use double-wide, which limits detail (like Popeye A8 punch frame).

 

The colors make up for not being 320 resolution (or NES 256 horizontal res). I wish they would have tweaked the 320 mode to be as colorful as 160. I would have been happy with a 256 res compromise. That was my expectation, because I always thought the 160 was just outside of making a true arcade look. The 256 on NES (and ColecoVision) were much more arcade accurate in sprites, but the lack of color made it sometimes look washed out (or just ugly on CV sometimes).

 

Well, I guess the limitations and strengths of the system are good, because they give us something to work around. This game is a good example. I could-have/would-have all day, but history has been written.

[+Stephen]

 

Therefore... the EGA standard (1984) just has more colors than the CGA standard (1981) ...

 

The 7800 160 mode (1.7 NTSC pixel aspect ratio ) can display a large number of color and an enormous number of sprites on the screen, each sprite/ tile can use from 3 to _12_ colors plus transparency _without limits of size (great flexibility)_ and flickering absent. And without tricks.

 

 

For instance, 7800 Ninja Golf (Dragon Boss) :

 

Odd game. I see the 7800 is capable of doing Saturn style shadows

[bfollett]

One reason some games on the A8 look blocky is there are only 4 or 5 sprites and to get multi-color you have to overlap them. In DK jr. all 4 sprites are used just to produce Donkey Kong Jr. The rest of the screen is all character graphic with software sprites and it shows. With the software sprite moving a character at a time instead of a pixel at a time and masking against the background, there are definite limitations.

 

Bob

[+darryl1970]

Odd game. I see the 7800 is capable of doing Saturn style shadows

LOL.

[+Defender_2600]

Odd game. I see the 7800 is capable of doing Saturn style shadows

 

I would like to see greater use of the 7800 160B mode ...