CPUWIZ Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Pretty disappointing, Andrew. Crap trolling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 Pretty disappointing, Andrew. Crap trolling. Don't know where you're coming from. But let me clarify; I have nothing against people using bB and making and releasing their own games. Good on them. Always admire people who make an effort. What I do think is killing the hobby is the 25 limited edition releases that cost $50 and don't offer any quality. It lowers the bar and discourages the production of quality product. I also see a number of what I'd term vultures who just churn out crap with dubious IP ownership solely with the purpose of making a buck at the expense of people who will buy just about anything because it's "limited edition" and supposedly scarce. The problem is these people who buy the things, and those people who prey on them. The cycle has to be broken, because it's killing the release of real quality games on the platform. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Don't know where you're coming from. But let me clarify; I have nothing against people using bB and making and releasing their own games. Good on them. Always admire people who make an effort. What I do think is killing the hobby is the 25 limited edition releases that cost $50 and don't offer any quality. It lowers the bar and discourages the production of quality product. I also see a number of what I'd term vultures who just churn out crap with dubious IP ownership solely with the purpose of making a buck at the expense of people who will buy just about anything because it's "limited edition" and supposedly scarce. The problem is these people who buy the things, and those people who prey on them. The cycle has to be broken, because it's killing the release of real quality games on the platform. And it isn't people who are capable of making good games but won't because they don't want to compete with lesser games for attention? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KaeruYojimbo Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The cycle has to be broken, because it's killing the release of real quality games on the platform. It only kills the release of quality games if you let it. The people who buy the crappy limited release games because they buy everything will also buy the really good game because they buy everything. People who buy the games they like will buy your game if it's good. If you stop making good games, those people will have nothing to buy and move on to other things. That's what will kill quality homebrews. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think the point is not about money. It is more about frustration and missing feedback when you need it. When you invest heaps of time into your game and it gets about the same positive feedback as a rushed crap game, then the feedback lost its value. In the end you find yourself doing the games only for yourself. But sometimes that's not enough, sometimes your need feedback and encouragement. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think the point is not about money. It is more about frustration and missing feedback when you need it. When you invest heaps of time into your game and it gets about the same positive feedback as a rushed crap game, then the feedback lost its value. In the end you find yourself doing the games only for yourself. But sometimes that's not enough, sometimes your need feedback and encouragement. Come on, Thomas... you KNOW we wrote Boulder Dash for the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 BTW I seem to recall a wonderful tutorial series for Atari 2600 and 6502 assembler written by Andrew. It's worth reading more than once. I put it on my web site in the hopes that it would help me learn: randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories.html#assembly_language Didn't work. My learning disabilities have screwed me up enough that I can barely use BASIC. I did the best I could at the time with Seaweed Assault, but at least it took 5 or 6 months of actual work to finish the game with the help of better programmers and game testers. Even those who hate the game can see that months of work went into it. It can be annoying when a new batari Basic user spends a weekend working on a game and immediately wants it on cart. No polishing or days of testing. They just squat, squeeze and there's your game. They look down at the steaming pile and ask "I can haz money nao?" The good news is that it usually only happens once in a while. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Of the 26 newest games in the AtariAge Store, of which the last new things were added November 2014, only 4 are made with Basic, one being a holiday compilation. My Flappy was offered and accepted by the store. I was perfectly okay if it would have been declined. It was to be a simple 4K early-in-the-year release to make AtariAge some money, but for whatever reason didn't appear until November 2014. I don't buy titles I will never play. Also it doesn't matter what console or tool is used, a good game is a good game, and a crap game is a crap game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I sincerely appreciate every development effort no matter what the level. I think the hobby has room for everyone. I get defensive about BASIC though which has been knocked since the first day it existed but there is no good reason for it. Especially in cases like 7800bas where it allows direct inline assembly and even produces assembly source. BASIC can have all the power of assembly but partly because of the name BASIC attracts a lot of people who wouldn't program otherwise. Don't think that those people aren't just as proud of their achievements. You may not share their excitement for the game they produce but you probably should just put that thought in your hat and keep it to yourself. Edited November 14, 2015 by SIO2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Well, I don't know if I'm a "good homebrew programmer" or not, but personally that's exactly what I did. I stopped programming. I was *greatly* discouraged by seeing people releasing stuff that took them a few weeks or (gasp!) months of effort and selling their copies. Seeing people buy these things climbing over each other to get limited edition copies of 25 or whatever... I simply couldn't see any reason for continuing to program quality assembler games for the platform. Ah! Then your problem is still not with the crap games but with the idiots who create a market for them. It seems to me that you didn't get discourage so much by others making cheesy quick-and-dirty games, but by your purported target market seeing value in things you did not, and therefore diminishing the impact of your product. In other words, you felt it was not worth to create games for people with no taste. That's fair. However, that says nothing about the tools used nor the skills of other programmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain King Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 What I see lacking in the community is good and honest criticism of new games. People either say nothing at all or nothing bad, mostly fearing the developer will "take their ball and go home with it". I fear people are ignoring the Bb development forum because of the quality of games being developed. I would have loved to hear criticism that would have helped me with my game, especially from people who I would consider as experts. I could only hope to write games half as great as Thomas Jentzsch, Darrell Spice, Jr., John W. Champeau, Chris Walton and Andrew Davie, just to name a few. Well, I don't know if I'm a "good homebrew programmer" or not, but personally that's exactly what I did. I stopped programming. I was *greatly* discouraged by seeing people releasing stuff that took them a few weeks or (gasp!) months of effort and selling their copies. Seeing people buy these things climbing over each other to get limited edition copies of 25 or whatever... I simply couldn't see any reason for continuing to program quality assembler games for the platform. This is disheartening, since I always have respected the work you have done. I still have my numbered Qb from Philly Classic as well as the Christmas version. Sadly I missed out on Boulder Dash. It's discouraging to hear you say that, Andrew, as you are most certainly one of the most talented 2600 homebrew authors. I totally agree. I studied Andrew's work and tutorials. I also studied the www.bjars.com site as well as countless other resources before I even started my own game. There are noobs and dabblers like me who aren't making homebrews for the money and want to learn from the guys who have already traveled this path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I think the point is not about money. It is more about frustration and missing feedback when you need it. When you invest heaps of time into your game and it gets about the same positive feedback as a rushed crap game, then the feedback lost its value. In the end you find yourself doing the games only for yourself. But sometimes that's not enough, sometimes your need feedback and encouragement. I'm sorry, but that sounds like a 13 year-old sulky teenager plight. "Stroke my ego! Validate me! Please!!!" With all due respect, it is clear that there is a problem with a community abusing the hobby, but it is a hobby after all. Pull up your big boy pants and make a game if you want to. If you don't, that's fine too, and good luck to you -- but that's on you. That said, why don't we all celebrate our hobby for what it is? -dZ. Edited November 14, 2015 by DZ-Jay 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I absolutely can not believe the negative comments toward BB. It is totally unwarranted based on what good came from BB. Let us all stop this bashing of BB King now! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) I absolutely can not believe the negative comments toward BB. It is totally unwarranted based on what good came from BB. Let us all stop this bashing of BB King now! I can't believe the amount of people that believe this is about bB-bashing. [edit: I'm an idiot. Just saw "King" at the end. My point still stands. ] Edited November 15, 2015 by Emehr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamchevy Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'm not a game programmer...yet. But one day I hope to write a game. I want very badly to write a game in assembly, but if the basic compiles down to assembly well enough I might not worry about it. I think like most things in life its all about the journey, and so far I'm really enjoying the many books and help sections in the forums about assembly programming on the different consoles I enjoy ( most recently the intellivision. ) I love that here on atariage we can ask questions and get help from expert programmers for the consoles we love. I to believe the prices have gotten pretty crazy for homebrews, but for the really good ones its worth it. I really like the idea behind the LTO flash cartridge, and I hope other consoles get the same thing. Being able to have drm on each rom so the piracy slows down or stops , and hopefully keep prices low enough to be able to keep a crash at bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) What I see lacking in the community is good and honest criticism of new games. People either say nothing at all or nothing bad, mostly fearing the developer will "take their ball and go home with it". I'm happy to give honest criticism. But I rarely even look at the programming forums anymore (much less the bB ones), because there are simply too many projects to regularly follow. If something comes out on a cart from the AA store, I'll get it and review it. I won't buy into the limited edition hacks and one-offs, because I have no interest in collecting something just because it has a box and a number. But those don't put me off from other homebrews or even some hacks (the Trak-Ball hacks, for example). I just ignore what I'm not interested in. From a feedback standpoint, what would help would be to have a permanent, centralized sticky thread listing projects that are intended to be released on a cart, including links to the latest binaries and the appropriate threads to leave feedback in (game feedback should not be allowed in the main sticky thread, because it would just become a mess). Then interested people could find these games and give feedback before a cart release without having to scour the forums. The problem here isn't bB, or even the number of bB games being made. It's that everyone seems to think every game they churn out deserves a cartridge release. I agree with this in part - but I think it needs a little clarification. If a game gets released by a website - AtariAge, Packrat, Atari2600.com, Good Deal Games, or wherever - then it's up to those who run those websites to determine the level of quality of game they will accept, and stick with it. If a game isn't good enough for their standards, then they should be honest enough with the programmers about it and not put the game in their stores. But if someone wants to release a game on a cart and sell it independently, that's entirely up to them. It's a hobby. If I want to make limited edition Pac-Man potholders out of old yellow socks and sell them on a public forum, then that's up to me, and it's my reputation that suffers when people end up with stinky burned hands. It's not going to put people off from buying other, better potholders. I should be able to do what I enjoy as part of my hobby, but that doesn't mean I should expect anyone else to like it, support it, or sell them for me. I would also hope my efforts wouldn't put off others from pursuing their own love of the hobby. The problem isn't bB, 7800basic, IntyBasic, or any other language that lowers the bar. If these languages didn't exist, the crap peddlers would just be selling graphical hacks of commercial games. The blame for crap carts lies entirely at the feet of people that create a market for crap carts in the first place. This. The only crash we are experiencing is an overall drop in cart sales due to most people having Harmony Carts and other devices. And this. Edited November 15, 2015 by Nathan Strum 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I absolutely can not believe the negative comments toward BB. It is totally unwarranted based on what good came from BB. Let us all stop this bashing of BB King now! LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 LMAO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky0x3_0li2I Hey! Someone likes my stupid Bb King joke. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KaeruYojimbo Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 But if someone wants to release a game on a cart and sell it independently, that's entirely up to them. It's a hobby. If I want to make limited edition Pac-Man potholders out of old yellow socks and sell them on a public forum, then that's up to me, and it's my reputation that suffers when people end up with stinky burned hands. It's not going to put people off from buying other, better potholders. I should be able to do what I enjoy as part of my hobby, but that doesn't mean I should expect anyone else to like it, support it, or sell them for me. I would also hope my efforts wouldn't put off others from pursuing their own love of the hobby. Andrew has essentially stated that because a few people are buying the old yellow sock potholders, he's going to stop making better potholders. If he doesn't want to make games anymore, that's his choice, but I personally disagree with his reasoning. Good games rise to the top. People still talk about and play Qb and Boulder Dash, but how many people still care about any of those limited editions made with "dubious IP ownership solely with the purpose of making a buck"? How many of them actually got played? Look at the feedback for those games. Is it "this is an awesome game" or is it "when can I buy this and stick another feather in my cap?" (I haven't actually done this, so this may be a bad argument.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Hey! Someone likes my stupid bB King joke. Will that feedback and encouragement help you post more jokes or would you still post jokes without it? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Will that feedback and encouragement help you post more jokes or would you still post jokes without it? I need no additional encouragement to make a fool of myself. Just ask my wife! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamchevy Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I dont think a crash is coming and if it is I certainly want to participate this time so I can tell future generations about how I helped save homebrews that most people havent heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Is the Atari Boulder Dash still for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Is the Atari Boulder Dash still for sale? No, and it was one of those crap, limited edition, numbered games. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Is the Atari Boulder Dash still for sale? Might be available on eBay: youtube.com/watch?v=fJZMo-F5YGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJZMo-F5YGs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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