Bob The Bug Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I've never entered either... and haven't written a game for over 20 years... so I am fairly happy with my effort so far 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+therealbountybob Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Entry is pretty painless The downer is the gap between the deadline and having to wait for the competition / meeting /voting. To support abbuc I'd encourage everyone to send in what they have, unless they are thinking of saving it for the next year's contest - even if it's a demo version. You usually get a few (quite a few) extra days to 'debug things' my game will not be finished but usually they are only finished when I have 0 bytes left @skr What was the reason for moving the contest forward? I'd vote for it being later in the year (yes for future contests), as summer is pretty busy; am I the only one who has more Atari time later in the year? What do other developers think? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I don't mind the deadline itself, what I wonder is why the game could not be published right after the deadline - the games are available to hundreds of ABBUC members, but the rest of the world (probably less users in total numbers) have to wait until the contest is over, but these ones are not allowed to vote anyway. So this is something I'd like to propose for future contests - unless there is a good reason that has so far slipped my mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 @skr What was the reason for moving the contest forward? I'd vote for it being later in the year (yes for future contests), as summer is pretty busy; am I the only one who has more Atari time later in the year? What do other developers think? Agreed 100% with this. Summer is so full of activities that it's kind of worst time to code a game. Unless you're on the beach somewhere with laptop and no internet to distract you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I don't mind the deadline itself, what I wonder is why the game could not be published right after the deadline - the games are available to hundreds of ABBUC members, but the rest of the world (probably less users in total numbers) have to wait until the contest is over, but these ones are not allowed to vote anyway. So this is something I'd like to propose for future contests - unless there is a good reason that has so far slipped my mind... as the members of ABBUC gave the prize money, they should have a benefit of it: They get the games three months earlier than others. and everyone is free to join the ABBUC to get (not only ) this benefit... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) Well, I'd say the benefit for ABBUC members is that they get all these games for free - the programmers (some of which might not even get monetary prizes) have to wait at least three more months until they can release their game into the public. More so, once the games are published in the ABBUC magazine, the programmer does not have much control how the game is spread, so while others can spread it (more or less legally), you yourself could be disqualified from the contest if you did so yourself. Also when a game is already (inofficially) out in the open, people might have lost interest in buying the game three months later. Not being allowed to publish the game before the deadline is reasonable for me. But having said the above, I can't think of a good reason why one should not be allowed to publish one's own creation after the deadline (and before the JHV)... Edited July 15, 2016 by freetz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) Well, I'd say the benefit for ABBUC members is that they get all these games for free ...and "the others" get all these games for free, too, but without giving Money. So why should ABBUC members give their money without a single benefit? "More so, once the games are published in the ABBUC magazine, the programmer does not have much control how the game is spread" No one has CONTROL of how his game is spread once a version has left his own building... see atarionline, fandal, etc.. pp.. you can get nearly every game there... i think, if a programmer offers his game slightly improved (or even boxed) on the day of the ABBUC General Meeting (where the votes get anounced) you will be able to sell quite a lot of units... . Edited July 15, 2016 by 8Bitjunkie 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hm, I might not have read the rules well enough, but it was my understanding that the all rights remain with the author of the software. The disk images of the magazine are not public domain as far as I know - at least they are not publicly available for non-members. I don't see how non-members should get the software (legally) for free? So an ABBUC membership gets you the benefit of getting a lot of good software both legally and for free. And of course I agree that you don't have control over your software once it has left your machine. But the thing is that with the current rules, you actually have less control than the rest of the world. Because if you publish it after the deadline but before the JHV, you would be disqualified. However, if others spread your software you can't do anything about it. You can't even counter it with a properly designed/packaged box set etc. because you have to wait until the JHV. My point is that this is an unnecessary restriction at the cost of the author while at the same time the contest would not be affected if this rule would be dropped. ABBUC members still benefit by getting the games legally and for free, so I still do not see a pressing reason why this rule should stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 it was my understanding that the all rights remain with the author of the software. The disk images of the magazine are not public domain as far as I know - at least they are not publicly available for non-members. I don't see how non-members should get the software (legally) for free? So an ABBUC membership gets you the benefit of getting a lot of good software both legally and for free. afaik this is correct! The author can publish his work freely after the contest. I am sorry - but i do not see your problem? This is a contest held by the ABBUC trying to generate fresh software for his members. For this, the members give money as prize. and get software as a result. this could be the end of the story. the author, on the other side, can freely decide to publish his work freely to the world, or try to reach a prize within the contest (and within the rules). And after the Contest he can freely ditribute his work. Again: Without any benefit for the ABBUC member, the members won't give money (i think) - and therfor there would be no contest at all... just my two cent as a ABBUC member... ________________________________________ as a programmer i would have no problem to release my software at some point of time between the deadline and the day of contest, but this is a decission to made by the ABBUc members. If you wanna change the rules, please tell CEO of ABBUC to ask the members at the GAM for this matter... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) Well, as I've pointed out above, the members do have a significant benefit already - they get a lot of software for free which they would probably otherwise not get. And I've also not seen an at least slightly convincing reason why the game should not be published after the deadline and before the JHV. Just sticking to a rule "because that's how it is" is not my cup of tea when there are good reasons to adjust it. Exclusivity would be acceptable if the game would not be allowed to be published at all outside the ABBUC club. But that's not the case. It is tied to the contest, and I argue that a release after the deadline would not affect the contest. But no point repeating myself, I'll see if it's possible to discuss/vote on this at the AGM... Edited July 15, 2016 by freetz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Well, [this is my personal opinion, not an official Abbuc statement!] the programs are released on the Abbuc magazine (= diskette) and this magazine appears AFTER the deadline (around late August, early September). First of all, the leader of the software contest requires some time to test the software and put it on the magazine in an appropriate way (with DOS, Gamedos, etc.), so that Abbuc members can execute these programs without problems. When the magazine finally arrives, the Abbuc members should have some time to test the programs before they give their votes... Now, when you release your program for free, just after the deadline, the Abbuc magazine has not even arrived then and dozens (or hundreds) of non-Abbuc members would get the program for free, so the benefit for the Abbuc members would be lost and I am quite sure many members would not even vote then and the contest would be no longer a contest. If all these software-contest programs would be available for free right from the start -or- before the Abbuc magazine arrives, why should anybody join Abbuc and pay the member fee then ? And if nobody is willing to pay the member fee, no more Abbuc, no more software contest, no more hardware contest, no more hardware developed or supported by Abbuc, etc. etc. - you see what I mean... Abbuc does not want a copyright of the programs, all they want is an exclusive right for 3-4 months - a right for a premiere release on the Abbuc magazine, nothing more, nothing less. Don`t take this right for the premiere release on the Abbuc magazine away, if you do, the software contest is over! (Sidenote: In the past the deadline of the Abbuc Software Contest was set one or two months later, but then many Abbuc members complained, that they did not have enough time to test the software and vote for the programs; also the leader of the software contest did not always have enough time to test if the programs fullfill the rules and put it on the diskettes in an appropriate way, etc. Everything was made in a hurry and so it was decided, that the deadline has to be earlier. But it makes no sense to complain about a too early deadline, as soon as the deadline of the software-contest is over and no later than the annual Abbuc meeting, a new software contest is announced, so you always have approx. 1 year / 12 months / 365 days to create a new program. We could set the deadline to January 1st and still, as soon as the deadline would be over, you would have another year to take part in the contest. And waiting 3 or 4 months from the deadline, until you have the right to freely release your program is not that long - we are Atarians, we can wait 30+ years for a program to arrive and we are no longer hackers/crackers that need everything instantly...) ...as said before, just my personal opinion... 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hello Frederick I've been to most, maybe even ALL of the JHV's in the last 20 to 25 years. I was there when the ASC (ABBUC Software Contest) started, have seen how it originated from the "Best of..." and have witnessed the "birth" of "Best of...". I might even have been there when the "Best of..." was conceived. You on the other hand have not. Believe me, we've talked about this A LOT!!! We, members of the ABBUC, pay for the prices. So we, the members of the ABBUC, should have an advantage over all others who do not. And we, the members of the ABBUC, should have a say in who gets what and when. Rules, as they are now and as Thomas has tried to explain to you in more than one posting, are that the software should not be published before the JHV. Period. We've never had software be published by a third party before the JHV. If a third party would do so, (s)he'ld probably be banned from the ABBUC. If the author(s) of a piece of software publishes his or her software before the JHV, (s)he will for ever be banned from the contest. That's the rules, that's how we, the members of the ABBUC, have decided. Nobody forces you to enter the ASC. If you don't like the rules, please don't enter into the ASC. The deadline was moved forward, by the way, because in the past, people complained that they did not have enough time to test the software thoroughly before the voting at the ASC. Sincerely Mathy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) Hi CharlieChaplin, ok, I didn't realize that there is a substantial gap between the deadline and the distribution of the magazine / disks to the members. Of course a release prior to the dissemination of the magazine would impact the contest, and as I agreed before, that should not be the case. But do you seriously think that the contest would be "over" if there was no exclusivity for two months and programmers had the right to publish their soft- or hardware at the same time the ABBUC magazine does? Even if the contest would be the main reason for ABBUC members to be part of the club - and I highly doubt that - they would still have the benefit to get all these great programs for free that otherwise might just be available through purchase, or maybe even not at all. Especially with the community having become much closer over the last years/decades, I doubt that "exclusivity" could ever be _the_ main reason for either being a member of ABBUC or the success of the contest. I always thought that people like these kind of contests because it's fun and full of surprises - from the kind of games and genres to the sometimes unexpected winners. At least that's it for me. But who am I to take away something that is apparently the core of success of the ABBUC contest . I'm probably just annoyed that I have the ATASCII Blaster cassette production laying around here (because June/July is the time of the year where I can afford to spend more time on my hobbies) and now have to wait until end of October to get them out. As you say, we're all not getting any younger ... Edited July 15, 2016 by freetz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hi Mathy, I don't know why you react in such a rather harsh way (at least it feels like it). I am a member of ABBUC, too, and while I have been at the JHV only once in 1991, I don't know why it wouldn't be appropriate to ask questions or make a suggestion. I have understood what Thomas, CharlieChaplin and you are saying, i.e. that exclusivity is a key element of the contest, and I have tried to explain why I don't see that this argument holds water - at least for me. What I generally do not find constructive is defending rules with the argument that "this or that has always been like that", because that would assume things cannot get any better than they are (and usually, they can). F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Hello Frederick You can make suggestions and ask questions as much as you want. But you're asking them over and over again. Thomas, Andreas and I have been trying to explain to you why things are as they are, but you don't seem to understand that your opinion isn't the opinion of the rest of us. Being a member of an association means that you get benefits non-members don't get. One of the benefits you get as a member of the ABBUC is that you get the software ahead of anybody else. I do not believe that it's the one thing that makes people want be become or stay a member of the ABBUC for, getting the software earlier that is. "ABBUC" to me is more than just the ASC. And I've meet many a member of the ABBUC. To most, "ABBUC" means "Atari 8 bit preservation", "fun" and "nice people/nice meetings". But that does not mean that we believe that non-members should have the same benefits members have. It's our money that pays for a big part of the preservation, the fun, the meetings, the new software and from time to time the new hardware. So we should have the benefit of enjoying it first. People who want the same benefits can join the ABBUC and join us preserving the Atari 8 bit, having fun and meeting nice people at Atari 8 bit related meetings. If being a member of an association wouldn't have benefits, there is no need to become a member of that association. And the association ceases to exist. Sincerely Mathy 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Ok, I admit that I fail to see why the supposed lack of "benefits" would either mean the end of the ASC or cease ABBUC's existence, but if you are speaking for the ABBUC majority, I can only repeat what I said above: who am I to question something that seems to be so central to the club. I nevertheless believe that people in general do not put so much importance on "benefits" when they engage themselves in whatever form in socitey, they rather often put in a lot of work/effort/time for a cause without expecting anything in return, be it in associations/clubs, NGOs, political parties etc. - and these also do not cease to exist. This is the background against which I questioned the arguments above and which were meant as constructive criticism. If this is uncalled for or makes anyone uncomfortable, I offer my apologies. Good night, F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) I'm probably just annoyed that I have the ATASCII Blaster cassette production laying around here (because June/July is the time of the year where I can afford to spend more time on my hobbies) and now have to wait until end of October to get them out. if it is only that, there would be a simple solution :-) : Offer your cassette now, let people pay the price of it now, and send the cassette to to customer just after the JHV. I order one cassette by now, as i *love* your ATASCII BLASTER :-) Edited July 16, 2016 by 8Bitjunkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Good idea! If this is allowed in the rules, that would be a good compromise... and your order is duly noted ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) Just playing around with my font editor für GetUp!... Just 10 days left... Edited July 20, 2016 by 8Bitjunkie 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodByteXL Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) Ok, I admit that I fail to see why the supposed lack of "benefits" would either mean the end of the ASC or cease ABBUC's existence, ... As the member's financial contributions are used to finance the prizes for the contests, what for a small society is quite some money every year, why should we shell out money if there is no added value for being a member? Before we developed this idea of "added value" the number of members declined constantly and we where very close to the point of having to close down business. But I guess that every ABBUC member knows this history as it has been discussed over and over and over again ... yawn ... But this "dinosaur" still is doing fine whereas all other former clubs, groups, etc. vanished. Nevertheless, I saw the need to bring it up again. If there were sponsors for ABBUC covering the yearly costs, the situation might be different, but so far no volunteers showed up. Nobody is forced to take part in any contest, so put your game up for download asap in whatever forum and it will spread quickly around the globe making the gamers happy. Edited July 20, 2016 by GoodByteXL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunsen Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I am ABBUC member not because of the benefits (e.g. playing games 1 month before the rest of the small Atari world). I am ABBUC member because with the money of 400+ members you can help projects make come alive. Without ABBUC's money it might not have been a Turbo Freezer, a SIO2USB, a MegaSpeedy and so many more fun projects. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetz Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Thanks! Exactly the same reason why I'm a member, too ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodByteXL Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I am ABBUC member not because of the benefits (e.g. playing games 1 month before the rest of the small Atari world). I am ABBUC member because with the money of 400+ members you can help projects make come alive. Without ABBUC's money it might not have been a Turbo Freezer, a SIO2USB, a MegaSpeedy and so many more fun projects. Yep, and all those items started developing after having introduced the contests . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I am ABBUC member not because of the benefits (e.g. playing games 1 month before the rest of the small Atari world). I am ABBUC member because with the money of 400+ members you can help projects make come alive. Without ABBUC's money it might not have been a Turbo Freezer, a SIO2USB, a MegaSpeedy and so many more fun projects. And many of the best game software would never have been created, were it not for the contest with prize money being awarded. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 LOL. This year is anniversary 30 years ABBUC membership 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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