Help archiving a rough batch of disks

[Savetz]

I received a batch of disks that includes unpreserved software and source code — and I can't read any of them. Tried my trusty Happy 1050, a Happy 810, and my FC5025 — the disks are just riddled with tons of error sectors. I've never had a batch this bad. Maybe the whole pile got degaussed or something.

 

What should I try next? Can KyroFlux possibly succeed here? (I have one but have never figured out how to use it.)

 

—Kevin

 

Here's a picture of a few so you can see what's at stake.

 

 

[Guest]

you'll know the "old faves" and beyond that there's not much

 

the usuals are

remove disks from jacket, clean gently, insert in fresh clean disk jacket

[russg]

I received a batch of disks that includes unpreserved software and source code — and I can't read any of them. Tried my trusty Happy 1050, a Happy 810, and my FC5025 — the disks are just riddled with tons of error sectors. I've never had a batch this bad. Maybe the whole pile got degaussed or something.

 

What should I try next? Can KyroFlux possibly succeed here? (I have one but have never figured out how to use it.)

 

—Kevin

 

Here's a picture of a few so you can see what's at stake.

IMG_4821.JPG

 

 

 

Here's an Atari utility to read and write sectors. You can scan the whole disk by reading sectors 1 to 720. Then you could get an idea

where the problems are and maybe even figure a way to salvage the disks. The program is slow, but steady.

RW13.zip

[+bob1200xl]

Are these all from the same user? He may have a drive that is off-track (or, off-speed), writes and reads its own disks OK, but you have trouble reading them.

 

Bob

[Savetz]

Are these all from the same user? He may have a drive that is off-track (or, off-speed), writes and reads its own disks OK, but you have trouble reading them.

 

Bob

 

 

Yes. Good thought.

 

Kevin

[+bob1200xl]

I have a 1050 that is used specifically for this purpose. I just alter the alignment and speed until the disk reads well. You can also change some of the analog clocking in the FDC, although that is rarely a problem.

 

But, all my stuff is still in boxes in the garage, for the moment. If you can't get them read in the next 3 months, rattle my cage...

 

 

Bob

[+Allan]

I thought Forth used a different disk format. Do you need a special DOS or a sector copier to copy these?

 

Allan

[+Larry]

@Savetz-

 

Did you make any progress? How many disks are you working with in this batch?

 

-Larry

[tuf]

The Kyroflux may help - but if you have bad sectors you have bad sectors. If the disks are 'flippy ' or notched with data on the back you'll need a modified floppy drive to access it.

 

Id suggest dumping them with the Kyroflux to avoid dealing directly with the failing media and work on the images to recover data.

[ijor]

The kryoflux might help, but as already suggested, most important is to clean the disks.

 

Also be aware that dirt in the disks behave like a virus. If a disk is very dirty, it will transfer dirt to the drive's head. Then, with a very dirty head, any disk inserted in the drive becomes dirty. So clean both the disks and the drive.

 

Also check if the disks are not physically damaged. See if there are any darks grooves on the disk surface. If there are any, be very careful, because each time you engage the drive's head in such disks it become worse.

 

Lastly, you don't necessarily need a modified drive to read the flippy side with a PC drive. You do need a drive that can read disks without the index, most 360K drives do, most HD drives don't. But you need software support for this. The SCP can read the flippy side just by flipping the disk, as you would do in the Atari, again, as long as the drive physically supports it. The Kryoflux could as well, but I don't remember if they every implemented that in their software.

 

Of course, there is a chance that they were written with a misaligned drive as Bob said, but that's not the most common cause of reading errors.

[Savetz]

I'm pretty confident now that the problem is dirt and/or mold. I now have a stack of drives that aren't working at all — I think the heads have been clogged by grime and need to to be cleaned. Bard has since told me they were stored in a basement with mold problems.

 

Also: I've found that the un-readability problem exists on his commercial disks in addition to the ones that he created himself. So it's probably not a misalignment problem.

 

So. Aside from cleaning my drives' heads — how do I clean the disks? I assume the procedure is: remove disk from sleeve, clean gently with water (and soap?), let dry, put in a clean floppy sleeve?

 

—Kevin

[+bob1200xl]

If I am going to wipe junk off the disk, I use 98% alcohol, but that can easily go bad on you. If the binder is failing (oxide is scraping off on a known, good drive), you may wipe off too much coating. Use a soft rag soaked in alcohol and lightly wipe the disk. This is OK if you have a disk with dust on it. Mildew - I dunno, probably OK. Like I said, alcohol is OK as long as the oxide binder is not failing.

 

Look closely at the surface of the disk. Are there serious 'rings' where the oxide has been disturbed or do the disks look normal?

 

Bob

[Savetz]

Just wanted to follow up with this — I had good luck reading the disks after removing the media from the sleeves, washing with warm water then isopropyl alcohol (just 70%, it's what I had around and seems to be doing fine) then putting the media in a clean sleeve to be read in a 1050.

 

Thanks for the tips.

 

I have saved several previously unpreserved programs, and source code, in this set of disks, which will be released soon.

 

Kevin

[Defender II]

Congratulations! I love happy endings.

[Mclaneinc]

Well done Kevin, a true Atarian

[Savetz]

Followup: here's the data from the disks in question: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258707-rambrandt-source-code-more-from-bard-ermentrout/

[Bryan]

Some thoughts on reading old disks:

Magnetic media is made with a plastic disk, a binding agent (glue), a layer of metal oxide powder, and a top coating to reduce friction. Once the top coating fails, the disk will exhibit stiction against the read head(s). The disk may turn slowly, or not at all, or it may whine as it spins (literally sticking and breaking free thousands of times a second). The disk may still be readable but will contaminate the head fairly quickly.

 

If the binder is failing, the oxide will begin coming off in strips as the disk turns. The track will be permanently ruined when this happens. If we can take a cue from audio tape restoration, baking the disk to drive moisture out of the binder may make it possible to read these disks for a short while.

 

Single sided drives are best for recovering disks because there's only one head to rub against. The felt pad causes far less friction, and the pressure can be lessened by messing with the spring. To read failing disks, I have removed them from their jackets and set the felt pad to low pressure. Then I've read a few tracks and cleaned the heads. Eventually, I was able to get most of the disk, and then I went back for the sectors that didn't read, varying the pad pressure.

 

If you have important disks you want to save and they show the above signs of failure or have a splotchy or milky surface, try removing the disk from the jacket and following tape baking procedures (the jacket cannot take as much heat). Then try to copy it in a single sided drive using a program that will quickly skip bad sectors and continue. Then go back for those sectors later.

[ijor]

If the binder is failing, the oxide will begin coming off in strips as the disk turns. The track will be permanently ruined when this happens. If we can take a cue from audio tape restoration, baking the disk to drive moisture out of the binder may make it possible to read these disks for a short while.

 

Did you actually try that on such disks Bryan?

[Bryan]

Did you actually try that on such disks Bryan?

No, but since audio tape had such a similar problem (oxide peeling off), I think it's worth a try. The problem started when whale oil was banned as a component of the binder. Several of the new formulations had problems.

[ijor]

No, but since audio tape had such a similar problem (oxide peeling off), I think it's worth a try. The problem started when whale oil was banned as a component of the binder. Several of the new formulations had problems.

 

Not sure it is the same issue as with audio tapes. But certainly it's worth a try, no doubts about it. Was hoping you tried already