Video Mod - Asteroids Strange Scanlines Effect

[Ikrananka]

I have one of the electronicsentimentalities video mods which I recently installed in my 2600 and have connected it up via S-Video to two different LCD displays, one an old Dell monitor and the other an old Sharp TV. In most games the video quality looks to be quite good, however when I play Asteroids I get a strange scanlines effect through each asteroid. It's almost as if each asteroid is made up of two overlapping parts, one with scanlines and the other not. Any ideas what might be causing this and/or how to solve it?

 

I've attached pictures taken of the system hooked up to my Sharp TV not only for Asteroids, but also Kaboom and Thrust to show the odd image is only showing with Asteroids (of the games I have tested that is)

Edited August 28, 2016 by Ikrananka

[Thomas Jentzsch]

That's the result of flicker (Asteroids displays the rocks only every other frame) and your LCD TV's picture "optimization". Most likely, you will face similar problems with other games which use flicker.

 

Try to disable all picture optimizations of your TV. Or try "game mode" if your TV offers this. Alternatively buy a cheap CRT TV or an expensive converter. Also you could try to mod your console for RGB output, but even that may not be liked by your TV.

[Ikrananka]

That's the result of flicker (Asteroids displays the rocks only every other frame) and your LCD TV's picture "optimization". Most likely, you will face similar problems with other games which use flicker.

 

Try to disable all picture optimizations of your TV. Or try "game mode" if your TV offers this. Alternatively buy a cheap CRT TV or an expensive converter. Also you could try to mod your console for RGB output, but even that may not be liked by your TV.

 

Thanks Thomas Good to know what's causing the issue. I tried all of the different settings on my monitor but they made no difference. I also tried a bunch more games and none of them have the issue and look pretty damn good with my current setup so I'll likely just live with it in games that use flicker. I may in the future try a different video mod to see if that makes a difference.

 

Where is there an RGB mod available for the 2600?

[alex_79]

The problem is that the TV cannot deal with the non-standard progressive signal the console is outputting (which happen to work just fine on analog TVs).
The RGB mod currently available for the 2600 (link) doesn't change that aspect of the video signal, so I think it won't help in this case.

Edited August 29, 2016 by alex_79

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Yup, most modern TVs understand 480i where old consoles output 240p. You need a scanline doubler (e.g. XRGB Framemeister) or a CRT TV.

 

However there are a few HDTVs which do understand 240p.

[Ikrananka]

The problem is that the TV cannot deal with the non-standard progressive signal the console is outputting (which happen to work just fine on analog TVs).

The RGB mod currently available for the 2600 (link) doesn't change that aspect of the video signal, so I think it won't help in this case.

 

 

Thanks for the RGB mod link - shame there's not one for the 2600Jr. yet. Looks like I'll have to wait and see if that comes available in the future.

[Ikrananka]

Yup, most modern TVs understand 480i where old consoles output 240p. You need a scanline doubler (e.g. XRGB Framemeister) or a CRT TV.

 

However there are a few HDTVs which do understand 240p.

 

So, would the Framemeister solve the problem then? I've been toying with the idea of buying one for quite some time but the cost has always put me off.

[Jeremy Popp]

 

So, would the Framemeister solve the problem then? I've been toying with the idea of buying one for quite some time but the cost has always put me off.

I actually just bought a framemeister (sorry bank account!), and even though my 2600 is only modded for RCA/composite and not S-Video, I could give it a try and see if I get that effect. So basically I'm just looking for those horizontal lines in the asteroids right?

 

I've been looking at S-video mods for Atari, so I may spring for that eventually.

[Ikrananka]

I actually just bought a framemeister (sorry bank account!), and even though my 2600 is only modded for RCA/composite and not S-Video, I could give it a try and see if I get that effect. So basically I'm just looking for those horizontal lines in the asteroids right?

 

Yes - it's like the asteroids are made up of two overlapping objects, a background one that is solid and a foreground one that is smaller and made up of horizontal lines. The foreground one seems to flicker and shift around a bit as well.

 

The composite from my video mod exhibits the same effect that I see on s-video. It would be great if you can see if you also see this effect and if the Framemeister eliminates it.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ikrananka

[Jeremy Popp]

 

Yes - it's like the asteroids are made up of two overlapping objects, a background one that is solid and a foreground one that is smaller and made up of horizontal lines. The foreground one seems to flicker and shift around a bit as well.

 

The composite from my video mod exhibits the same effect that I see on s-video. It would be great if you can see if you also see this effect and if the Framemeister eliminates it.

 

Mystery Solved! I tried an av modded 7800 and 2600 using the framemeister and the asteroids are solid and completely filled in just like originally on a CRT. However, using the same modded consoles straight to my TV using the composite it replicates your screenshot and description perfectly.

 

If it helps any, i can get screenshots.

[Ikrananka]

 

Mystery Solved! I tried an av modded 7800 and 2600 using the framemeister and the asteroids are solid and completely filled in just like originally on a CRT. However, using the same modded consoles straight to my TV using the composite it replicates your screenshot and description perfectly.

 

If it helps any, i can get screenshots.

 

Wow - cannot thank you enough for trying this out. Looks like a Framemeister is in my near future.....good job a have some other consoles that will also benefit from it.

 

Some pics would be really good to see if you don't mind. Thanks

[Jeremy Popp]

 

Wow - cannot thank you enough for trying this out. Looks like a Framemeister is in my near future.....good job a have some other consoles that will also benefit from it.

 

Some pics would be really good to see if you don't mind. Thanks

 

No problem, glad I could help. Top image is using the framemeister xrgb-mini with only the composite mod. As you can see, the asteroids are filled in. Luckily the framemeister has a freeze option, so I was able to get a good screenshot. However, connecting straight to the TV produces the second image - it was very hard to get a good screenshot since it's always moving, I don't know how you got such a good picture in your first post. Anyway, it's blurry because of constant movement, but you get the idea. For reference, I'm using a Samsung 51" plasma TV.

 

The primary reason I bought the framemeister was my Sega set up - Sega Genesis/CD/32X, SMS and Saturn all natively output RGB through SCART. Looks amazing - composite material could use some help though, maybe S-Video or RGB is in my future for Atari/NES etc.

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Jeremy Popp

[Ikrananka]

 

No problem, glad I could help. Top image is using the framemeister xrgb-mini with only the composite mod. As you can see, the asteroids are filled in. Luckily the framemeister has a freeze option, so I was able to get a good screenshot. However, connecting straight to the TV produces the second image - it was very hard to get a good screenshot since it's always moving, I don't know how you got such a good picture in your first post. Anyway, it's blurry because of constant movement, but you get the idea. For reference, I'm using a Samsung 51" plasma TV.

 

Thanks a lot. Where did you buy your Framemeister from? I'm still struggling with justifying the cost.

 

I wonder if there is an s-video to HDMI converter out there that also does line doubling for a much lower cost than the Framemeister???

[Ikrananka]

I'm wondering if this converter on eBay might do the trick. It claims to be a line doubler but outputs VGA. VGA is fine for me as the monitor I want to use this on has both VGA and HDMI inputs. Any thoughts on this?

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190595997739

[Jeremy Popp]

 

Thanks a lot. Where did you buy your Framemeister from? I'm still struggling with justifying the cost.

 

I wonder if there is an s-video to HDMI converter out there that also does line doubling for a much lower cost than the Framemeister???

 

I bought it on ebay for $354.89 shipped from Japan, came with a remote overlay. Then I had to buy cables. I don't think it's possible to justify the cost really, for me it was worth it but only because I have the disposable income. I also knew that based on reviews, there is nothing better.

 

I'm wondering if this converter on eBay might do the trick. It claims to be a line doubler but outputs VGA. VGA is fine for me as the monitor I want to use this on has both VGA and HDMI inputs. Any thoughts on this?

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190595997739

Part of the reason I went with the framemeister is because it was designed with 240p input in mind and outputs 1080p HDMI. A lot of other scalers have weird output resolutions like the one you linked to. I have a feeling there is no widescreen/4:3 options and probably just fills the screen. There probably is something cheaper out there, but without trial and error and reading a lot of reviews I couldn't recommend anything.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I'm wondering if this converter on eBay might do the trick. It claims to be a line doubler but outputs VGA. VGA is fine for me as the monitor I want to use this on has both VGA and HDMI inputs. Any thoughts on this?

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190595997739

The input formats (especially 240p) are nowhere mentioned, so be careful!

[Ikrananka]

Part of the reason I went with the framemeister is because it was designed with 240p input in mind and outputs 1080p HDMI. A lot of other scalers have weird output resolutions like the one you linked to. I have a feeling there is no widescreen/4:3 options and probably just fills the screen. There probably is something cheaper out there, but without trial and error and reading a lot of reviews I couldn't recommend anything.

 

 

The input formats (especially 240p) are nowhere mentioned, so be careful!

 

Thanks for the feedback guys - really appreciate it. Looks like a Framemeister is the only safe way to go. I need to sell some stuff to offset the cost so will get that organised asap. Thanks again for all of your help.

[R.Cade]

Yuck, just get a nice old Trinitron TV to play SD game systems.

 

Why are you spending all this money and torturing yourselves? You could have just run emulation...

[Keatah]

I totally dislike classic console gaming on modern TVs unless using a Framemeister - Seems its the best way to match old analog technology with newer digital displays. Or stick with an analog CRT.

 

The only other option is to operate entirely in the digital domain via emulation. It's something I've been doing now for the past 10 or so years. And it affords many conveniences. But just don't settle for the default options. There's lots of little tricks and adjustments to spiff it all up.

 

Anything in-between is just horsing around for half-assed results.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Keatah

[alex_79]

I totally dislike classic console gaming on modern TVs unless using a Framemeister

Same here, except I have no interest in trying a framemeister or any other scaler at all.

CRT are the best solution for classic games and they're still cheap and widely available. Nothing can beat an atari 2600 with s-video (or the recent RGB mod) connected to a good CRT.

 

If I want to play vcs games on a digital TV, then I just connect a PC configured with the same native resolution of the TV, running stella with CRT filters enabled and usb arcade-style joystick (or usb adapters that allows to use original controllers including paddles and keypads). The result is very close to what you get on a CRT and it will keep improving over time. (I've read that a better phosphor filter is in the works and maybe in the future other options would be available. I like those filters that simulates the curvature of a tube screen in mame/mess, for example, and I hope they will be added to stella at some point).

 

 

[Ikrananka]

I totally dislike classic console gaming on modern TVs unless using a Framemeister - Seems its the best way to match old analog technology with newer digital displays. Or stick with an analog CRT.

 

Same here, except I have no interest in trying a framemeister or any other scaler at all.

CRT are the best solution for classic games and they're still cheap and widely available. Nothing can beat an atari 2600 with s-video (or the recent RGB mod) connected to a good CRT.

 

Personally I hate using old CRTs and much prefer playing the games on modern flat displays with as crystal clear graphics as possible. Just my personal preference.

 

In the setup I'm trying to put together now I have very little real estate available with there being absolutely no room to accommodate the extra depth required by a CRT. What I do have is a flat screen Dell monitor that used to be my main PC screen but has since been replaced with something bigger. So, I'm giving this older screen a new lease of life as it fits very nicely in the space I have available. Yes - I could use emulation with this screen, but I have a large collection of cartridges and console hardware and I love physically using them and changing cartridges to play different games as I did when I was a kid.