Project shipping ideas?

[Dropcheck]

Well the first run of the Ralf David XL/XE Eprom Burner is done and history. Most purchasers were from the states. I expected that, but I was kind of disappointed that my usual European customers stayed on the sidelines this time. I guess two reasons. Like I said the burner was not a must have item and I am sure that many in Europe already had the original, so there was little reason to purchase another one. The other reason is possibly the shipping costs.

I've been unhappy with the shipping costs to Europe for over a year now. I can find no justification for the high cost. When I partnered with Santos the shipping costs to mail the non-European sold SpartaDOS carts to me seemed quite reasonable considering the weight and size of the box. But if I ship a box heavier than 8oz to most of Europe it will cost 22.50 at the US Post Office. FedX, UPS, and DHL are even worse. Who wants to pay nearly half the purchase cost just in shipping? Or more depending on what you buy.

Perhaps this is the price you pay for a semi-independent postal system. The USPS is not officially financially supported by the US Government, but is controlled by the US Congress. Are most country's postal systems government financed and controlled?

I've been thinking about how to circumvent the high cost of shipping. I've come up with at least three options, but none is perfect.

1. Split the assembly of the orders based on the continent of purchase. Have both a US and European assembly location.

This seems to solve the postal costs very well, except it introduces a couple of other problems. One is the reality that a project is priced based in large part on the cost to make X number of items. Ideally if you have a larger number of items to produce you can save some on parts through quantity discounts. This works well if all parts go to the same address. If you split the assembly now you have to get the same required # of parts to two different places. Many parts houses consider that two different orders, voiding any quantity discounts, but also possibly increasing shipping costs. This unfortunately tends to drive the parts cost up, which means the retail cost goes up too.

 

I'm not a control freak, but in reality when you split the assembly of the project, you also lose some control over what parts are used(some parts are not available outside the US or not allowed in the EU etc), assembly practices etc. And now you are dealing with another person's schedule too. And you introduce an issue discussed in the next section.

2. Have the entire assembly done in Europe.

This also seems to solve the postal costs very well, except it introduces it's own problems. Again you have the loss of control over the parts used, assembly practices, assembler schedules etc. But you also have an issue of how to pay for the assembly. I wouldn't dream of expecting someone to do that much work for free. So now no matter what the method of payment, it has to be figured into the retail price of the product too. And then of course you have the shipping costs of all the items either sold to US customers or unsold to be sent back to me. Again that cost has to be figured into the retail costs.

3. Have a central shipping location in Europe.

This does solve to some extent the postal costs. If I have six items that if shipped together would only cost $30, then that definitely is better than $22.50 per item. However now you have a person who has to repackage those items and pay individual shipping charges to the final destination. This person would also need some compensation. So it's a toss-up as to whether any shipping costs are reduced. This also increases the time for the items to get from me to the final destination and increases the risk of total loss of not just 1 item but all in the package.


I know how to solve this. Order the latest Starfleet certified SuperTransport transporter chamber from 3M Enterprises. Should arrive in say, oh 100 years. Think we'd still be tinkering with Atari 8bits then?

 

But really...... what considered options would you suggest?

Edited September 16, 2016 by Dropcheck

[+mytek]

I hear you. I recently shipped a very small box to the UK through our US Postal service and it cost me $33. Then to make matters worse it was hit with custom charges of nearly 1/2 the value of what was inside the package. So I think it ended up at a grand total of nearly $50 to ship a JOY2PIC, a TK-II-STEREO board, and a couple of ribbon cables. Go figure !?!

 

I think it's time for a new shipping entity to appear that will give these other guys some real competition, because it's beginning to feel like they all have some sort of agreement in place not to price gouge each other.

 

As for your situation, unfortunately I have no suggestions that you haven't already thought of.

 

Michael

 

 

Edit: A star fleet transporter does sound good

Edited September 17, 2016 by mytekcontrols

[+CharlieChaplin]

How about a teleporter or beamer ?!?

But beware that no flies will get in or...

[+Larry]

But we will need "spice" (from Dune) to be alive then.

[ebiguy]

 

But really...... what considered options would you suggest?

Hi Dropcheck,

 

Let me tell you my feeling about it. I hope other european people will do as well.

I bought the SpartaDos X from you (both versions) and I buy many add-ons (carts or whatever) because I want to support people who bring new extensions.

This is a way to say thank you for people spending so much time to deliver new stuff to the community.

I am always sad to read that a project did not find an audience because it could lead the author to stop the experience.

You made an excellent work with SpartaDos X. So let me tell you thank you for all your contributions.

 

I did not order the Eprom burner. I don't really know why. I guess it is because this kind of item is not as appealing as the SpartDos cartridge was.

I live in France and the shipping cost is usually a big problem. But, to be honest, the price is not the first reason why I did not buy the Eprom burner.

I think it depends on the item sold and if people want it desperately.

In this category, I would put extensions for the 800. I do not have an Incognito and a board that does ROM and Axlon RAM in the first slot would be great (as talked another thread).

For such a board, I will be ready to pay expensive shipping cost. And also for more boards designed for the other slots.

This is a discussion you started about a 1090 clone but the 800 already has some extension ability and it is not really used.

 

I guess the second option (Have the entire assembly done in Europe) could be a good alternative.

There are people in Poland and in Germany who delivers excellent work. You already know them as they are on Atari Age.

You should probably talk to them.

[GoodByteXL]

I've been unhappy with the shipping costs to Europe for over a year now. I can find no justification for the high cost.

 

...

 

But really...... what considered options would you suggest?

 

#3 could be a good solution when keeping control is important.

 

Consider "ready-to-send" pre-packing and pre-addressing of the items to be delivered and use one big box for sending it to the distributor of your confidence. He just had to put it in the mail. Within the EU this easy to handle.

 

For the old world there are a few additional options worth to be considered:

 

- There are several big meetings during the year, so somebody attending a meeting could distribute the items there.

- Have it delivered directly to a meeting (e.g. Fujiama; I did that once with prints) place.

- Support what in German is called "Sammelbestellung" (collective purchase order). We do that frequently via the ABBUC forum.

[Fred_M]

I completely understand your frustration! It is exactly the same for people in Europe who are sending items to the US. I run a small webshop in The Netherlands and I almost never get orders from the US and the reason is the shipping costs...

 

When the item fits into an envelope (max. 3 cm depth) the shipping costs are quite okay. The Dutch Royal mail does not make any difference in destination The price is the same if I send an envelope to for example Germany or the US. Up to 250 grams the costs are € 6.25. But it all changes when the item does not fit into or is too heavy for an envelope. The Dutch Royal mail is very expensive to send packages to other countries. Luckily there is some competition. For countries in Western Europe I use DPD. I can send up to 10 kilograms for "only" € 10.75. To other European countries for € 19.75. But.... the US is a completely different story. The cheapest shipping partner is DHLforyou. Up to 2 kilograms they ask € 24.00, up to 5 kilograms € 32.00 and up to 10 kilograms a whopping € 52.00..... So sending orders to the US is not very appealing and I can understand why.

 

I think the best option for you is option 3. I think option 2 is not an option, because shipping costs from Europe to the US are also quite high. If you consider option 3 I would advise you to first find out if Europeans are interested in the Eprom burner. If would be a shame if you spend a lot of money for getting the burners to Europe when there is not enough interest.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Fred_M

[Gunstar]

Nothing to do with shipping costs over seas or anything, but you must remember that not everyone has money to buy your products right when they are released. I'd love to by one of these burners from you, but I just don't have extra cash to blow on my hobby right now.

 

You just can't always expect possible customers to be ready with cash in hand with some limited time, limited run project. I was lucky enough to buy the last or second to last SSDX cart from you. Another week later, and I would have missed out on the cased version, which is what I needed, since I never had the original ICD SDX cart case to put it in.

 

There have been many, many, many items sold by you and others that I have totally missed out on due to a limited production run, limited time to buy and just not being ready to do so when the product is available.

 

It isn't always about interest or lack thereof, but about many people that are interested, but just can't buy it when you hope they can! Of course shipping does factor in to what we can afford, NOW, as well. Though I'm in the states so shipping isn't usually the issue for me.

 

I'd have loved to get an Incognito board for an 800 when they were released, but just didn't have the cash, so now it looks like I missed out on that forever. There is a long list of stuff I still want, your burner and other items you sell, Lotharek's VBXE, Rapidus, IDE+ 2.0, and many, many other hardware and software goodies out there, but I can't afford them yet. I can only hope they are still being sold when the time comes that I can afford them.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Gunstar

[Dropcheck]

Nothing to do with shipping costs over seas or anything, but you must remember that not everyone has money to buy your products right when they are released. I'd love to by one of these burners from you, but I just don't have extra cash to blow on my hobby right now.

 

You just can't always expect possible customers to be ready with cash in hand with some limited time, limited run project. I was lucky enough to buy the last or second to last SSDX cart from you. Another week later, and I would have missed out on the cased version, which is what I needed, since I never had the original ICD SDX cart case to put it in.

 

There have been many, many, many items sold by you and others that I have totally missed out on due to a limited production run, limited time to buy and just not being ready to do so when the product is available.

 

It isn't always about interest or lack thereof, but about many people that are interested, but just can't buy it when you hope they can! Of course shipping does factor in to what we can afford, NOW, as well. Though I'm in the states so shipping isn't usually the issue for me.

 

I'd have loved to get an Incognito board for an 800 when they were released, but just didn't have the cash, so now it looks like I missed out on that forever. There is a long list of stuff I still want, your burner and other items you sell, Lotharek's VBXE, Rapidus, IDE+ 2.0, and many, many other hardware and software goodies out there, but I can't afford them yet. I can only hope they are still being sold when the time comes that I can afford them.

 

I wasn't trying to chastise anyone for not buying. Please don't think that.

 

Just trying to see if the shipping issue was a main reason for those outside the US. I want to get these projects into as many hands as possible.

 

One of the reasons why I setup the website was to offer as many items as I could on a reoccurring basis. For just the reasons you mentioned. To make it a little easier for those who can't buy right now.

 

Sometimes though it's only economical to do a limited run only once or twice. Like with the Super SpartaDOS cartridge project. Neither Santos or I or any of the other people doing this are setup to be a real manufacturer. No space to store or time to make/assemble, etc. No money to sink into a product that might or might not sell in six months or ever. Sometimes the chips necessary are in limited supply. There's a thousand reasons.

 

I run into the same issues you do as a buyer. The money I can set aside for the hobby is limited and there are so many projects that come along that I know I can't buy everything that is made.

 

Sometimes it's the sh*&s. Makes me wish I'd won the lotto last week.

[Dropcheck]

Hi Dropcheck,

 

Let me tell you my feeling about it. I hope other european people will do as well.

I bought the SpartaDos X from you (both versions) and I buy many add-ons (carts or whatever) because I want to support people who bring new extensions.

This is a way to say thank you for people spending so much time to deliver new stuff to the community.

I am always sad to read that a project did not find an audience because it could lead the author to stop the experience.

You made an excellent work with SpartaDos X. So let me tell you thank you for all your contributions.

 

I did not order the Eprom burner. I don't really know why. I guess it is because this kind of item is not as appealing as the SpartDos cartridge was.

I live in France and the shipping cost is usually a big problem. But, to be honest, the price is not the first reason why I did not buy the Eprom burner.

I think it depends on the item sold and if people want it desperately.

In this category, I would put extensions for the 800. I do not have an Incognito and a board that does ROM and Axlon RAM in the first slot would be great (as talked another thread).

For such a board, I will be ready to pay expensive shipping cost. And also for more boards designed for the other slots.

This is a discussion you started about a 1090 clone but the 800 already has some extension ability and it is not really used.

 

I guess the second option (Have the entire assembly done in Europe) could be a good alternative.

There are people in Poland and in Germany who delivers excellent work. You already know them as they are on Atari Age.

You should probably talk to them.

 

I understand the desire for 800 mods. I'm sure that you feel kind of left out when you hear XL/XE/XEGS this and that mostly. I know I don't see many mods offered for the older version of 8bit computer. I never owned an 800. Lusted after it for awhile, until I saw my first 800XL.

 

If I had one now, I probably would be creating mods for it.

 

I completely understand if something like the eprom burner is not a must have item for you. I'm sure that many people felt that way. That's perfectly okay. I just wanted to see if the shipping issue was a major player in the reasons not to buy.

 

Thank you for your comments.

[+mytek]

Makes me wish I'd won the lotto last week.

 

There's always next week Feeling lucky ?

 

- There are several big meetings during the year, so somebody attending a meeting could distribute the items there.

- Have it delivered directly to a meeting (e.g. Fujiama; I did that once with prints) place.

- Support what in German is called "Sammelbestellung" (collective purchase order). We do that frequently via the ABBUC forum.

I like the idea about coordinating with a specific European meet-up, and have people come get their purchased product. Of course they might have to wait for a bit. But it certainly would change the shipping cost in a good way.

 

- Michael

[snicklin]

Your solution could be to shift production to Australia, that way it will be equally expensive to send it anywhere. :)

[Dropcheck]

Not really what I had in mind.

 

But it does highlight the same problem on the other side of the world.

 

Somebody know the telephone number to 3M Enterprises. Gotta get that transporter ordered now.......

[+slx]

For one-off projects there might be an Atari user willing to re-mail a combined shipment, maybe a buyer who gets a discounted or free unit for his work.

 

Another option would be to use a remailing service such as Logoix which offers shipping services all over Europe. The link is to their shipping calculator and while it says "dropoff at their office" it would probably work to mail them a box of stuff for distribution. Website is German only but should be possible to navigate.

 

Asking ABBUC for help would be another option.

 

As for expansions, I probably couldn't resist an 800 expansion that can be used with an Incognito (and would still make sense, so no Axlon boards but maybe an 80-column board or 65c816). I never dabbled with EPROMs in the past and wasn't sure an Atari based burner would make more sense than a "modern" USB unit.