Help, Apple IIe disk drive won't boot; reads continuously with red light on

[Retro STrife]

Hey guys. I'm new to the Apple II and having some trouble with my IIe. I'm wondering if someone here might recognize the problem and be able to help. It involves the disk drive reading continuously with the red light on, and never going off, but without booting up the game.

First some background... I bought an Apple IIe, with monitor and two A9M0107 disk drives, on Craigslist a couple months back. I bought it to replay the games I grew up with in my elementary school computer class. So, in general, I don't know much of anything about classic computers from the pre-Windows era. (Since I'm not tech savvy with these, please keep that in mind with any advice.)

So, besides the monitor and disk drive, I have nothing else connected. For the past couple months, I have had the computer downstairs in my house, and it has worked perfectly. No issues at all. The last game I played was a copied Oregon Trail disk that someone made for me using ADTPro and FTP ASIMOV. That was about a week ago. And it played perfectly fine.

Then a few days ago, I disconnected everything and moved it upstairs and reconnected it. While moving it, I wasn't rough with it and nothing unusual happened. After moving it, I went a few days without using it.

Then, last night, I pop in my personal copy of Championship Lode Runner (an original version, not a copy). I've used it before, so I know the disk works. But this time, when I first turned everything on, the disk drive read continuously with the red light on and never stopped. In fact, that time, the "Apple //e" didn't even appear on the screen..just a totally blank screen, while the drive tried to read. I shut down and tried again... same issue with the drive (reading and reading, but no booting), but now "Apple //e" did appear on the top of the screen (and it has always appeared in all other tests since). I tried various other disks and also tried the second disk drive, but everything has the same symptoms and no success getting anything to boot. Even if I eject the disk, the drive keeps trying to read.

Normally, I might assume it to be a bad disk drive, but since I have two drives and neither of the two are working and they both have the same symptoms, that is leading me to believe it is something else. Since I tried several games that previously worked, I feel comfortable saying it's not the disks. The only things that I can think of that occurred between when it last worked and when it stopped working are: (1) I played that copied version of Oregon Trail from ftp asimov; (2) I disconnected everything and moved it upstairs; and (3) I put in my copy of Championship Lode Runner. Or perhaps it's unrelated to those events and totally coincidental. Any thoughts?

[Retro STrife]

I have a feeling it doesn't help you much, but just in case, here is a picture of what I have. I happened to take this last night before trying the game.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Retro STrife

[Keatah]

It's probably not any of the disks. Not that many would be bad!

 

Since the computer was moved. I would suggest a gentle reseating of all the socketed chips on the main motherboard and the controller card (if they are socketed there as well).

 

There was a time when I had to fiddle once or twice with the controller card's ribbon cable. Maybe that applies here, too? And perhaps inserting and removing the connectors a couple of times in rapid succession may "clean" them.

 

Let's see what can be done without troubleshooting tools!

 

Not related, because the problem seems common to both drives: There is the possibility of heads being dirty. I am going through some old disks. And after a while I started getting funky errors and all. I ran my head cleaning disk through it and all is well again. If and when you get it going again, run a disk verify with Copy II+ on both drives. Consider this once you get your rig back in order. Do it for PM!

[Retro STrife]

Do the cards just pop out of their sockets on the motherboard, or is there a way to release them? I've tried to pull them out but i dont want to force it too much if that's the wrong way.

[Keatah]

Cards should lift straight up! Some can be in there real good.

 

Longer cards are easier to get out because they can be rocked back and forth with a seesaw action. NEVER EVER flap or bend them left-right.

[Osgeld]

I assume you reseated the card, far as chips you can press down on them that sometimes works

 

 

Also be careful plugging the drive into the controller its real easy to misalign pins possibly causing hardware damage

[Keatah]

@Osgeld

 

Look at the type of drives the OP has, these are DB-style connectors and should only plug in one way, with no mis-alignment possible.

[The Usotsuki]

Yeah, it's the OTHER 5.25" drive that causes that kind of problem (and what I thought was the first suspect until I saw Unidisks in the picture).

[Retro STrife]

The mystery deepens...

So I have some updates. Yesterday when I got home from work, I booted up the computer. Hoping it just magically worked again. For testing, I've been using a backup copy of Frogger that I have (I am worried that my disks might get deleted by this issue, so I've chosen this disk as the one to sacrifice if it comes down to it). I know that the Frogger disk worked previously, as I played it a few weeks ago. I've also been testing with a Carmen Sandiego game and some typing program, just in case the Frogger disk is bad now.

Well anyways... so I booted it up last night and, first time booting, I get this strange screen. (See Photo 1). Not sure what it means. I started pushing a few buttons and hitting enter, and the screen starting looking like Photo 2. I shut off the computer, and turned it back on. BAM, Frogger BOOTED UP! Yes, booted up correctly to the main game screen. I didn't play it, but it appeared to be working just as it should. I figured the problem was cured, so I shut down and tried Carmen Sandiego.... Nope, fail. Same old problem.... just "Apple //e" on the screen, with the disk drive reading and reading but not booting up. I put Frogger back in, and it didn't boot up--instead, back to the same problem. Since then, I shut it off and back on at least 20 times, trying different things, but it has done that same thing every single time. EXCEPT... on one occasion with Frogger, I got the "Unable To Load ProDOS" screen, and then I tried Carmen Sandiego and got that same exact screen. (See Photo 3.) After that, I jiggled some cards in the computer and never got that screen again... it's now back to the same problem as before. (I know the "Unable to Load" screen usually means a problem with the disk, but unless this issue just deleted the Frogger game [remember, it worked earlier in my tests last night] and the Carmen Sandiego game, then I think the error must actually be caused by something else here and not a disk problem.)

Then, this morning, after reading your advice on pulling out the cards, I did that with all the cards and reseated them. The contacts looked good, but I cleaned some anyway. No change in symptoms. I have not removed and reseated any of the IC chips. Do you recommend that too? I pressed down on them all, but didn't help any.

Thanks for everyone's help so far. If these events shed any new light, please let me know your thoughts. In case it helps any to understand what I have, I also took a photo of the inside of my IIe and attached it here.

[Keatah]

Does wiggling the disk controller card ribbon cable change anything? And did you undo and redo the disk drive connectors?

 

How about the internal system diagnostic?

[Retro STrife]

Does wiggling the disk controller card ribbon cable change anything? And did you undo and redo the disk drive connectors?

 

How about the internal system diagnostic?

 

I tried the wiggling of the ribbon and connections, but no success. As far as the connectors, you mean the connection on the back of the computer? If so, yes, I've removed and reconnected that several times without success.

 

As far as internal system diagnostic, no, haven't tried that. I'm not sure how to go about doing that.

[Polymorph]

So, besides the monitor and disk drive, I have nothing else connected. For the past couple months, I have had the computer downstairs in my house, and it has worked perfectly. No issues at all. The last game I played was a copied Oregon Trail disk that someone made for me using ADTPro and FTP ASIMOV. That was about a week ago. And it played perfectly fine.

 

It sounds suspiciously like dirty heads. The disk that you got from that "someone" may have been old and cruddy and dirtied your drive heads. I've done this with my own disks that got dirty over time and they had been stored in a closed floppy disk storage box.

 

If you have a 5.25" head cleaning disk you could could try Brutal Deluxe's "Dust Head", or for the ultimate clean (and what I have done in the past) you can open up the drive and clean the heads manually. If you search for "apple II drive head clean" on YouTube, the first 2 video's should be of help (one shows the use of "Dust Head" and David Schmidt demonstrates how to manually clean a drives heads).

[Keatah]

That someone would be me. The disks you sent me were new, shrink wrapped. I made them on new old-stock disk drives. They didn't seem to cause any read/write issues. Not like the Memorex disk I started fighting with yesterday.

 

I'm quite aware of shedding oxide and lube coating. These Memorex disks are shedding like a dog. They have to be conditioned by a full sweep of the pressure pad and then a head clean AFTER EACH DISK.

 

You can get 5.25 head cleaner disks and it's wise to use them. Personally I use those or cotton cloth directly on the head.

 

if this turns out to be root cause, I would only suspect it's going to get worse as more and more oxide and lube sheds..

Edited September 23, 2016 by Keatah

[Retro STrife]

New developments...

 

I am starting to think I was wrong, and that it is the disk drive, rather than an internal issue. And perhaps even that the issue is caused by the Championship Lode Runner disk (let's abbreviate as CLR). I don't have a head cleaning disk (SIDE NOTE: Where can I get one? Didn't see one on ebay.), so I took one of my disk drives apart and cleaned the head with a q-tip and alcohol. It didn't seem very dirty to begin with, but it was definitely shiny-clean when I was done. Booted it up with the Carmen Sandiego game and... BAM, there it is WORKING PERFECT, booted right up. That seemed to confirm the issue as being related to a dirty head. So I thought, great, it's cured, and I put in CLR.... well, didn't work--instead, back to the same old nonsense with it refusing to boot up. Figured maybe that disk was bad, so I tried Carmen Sandiego again a few times. Nope, now that failed to boot too. It was getting late after that, so I didn't go any further, but I will work on it more this weekend. But let's walk through everything again, and consider it through the lens of CLR being the problem:

 

1. The computer worked perfect for a couple months. No issues. I moved it from the downstairs to the upstairs. The first game I popped in was CLR. No booting up. This was the first time the problem ever occurred.

2. Then I tried my other disk drive. Popped in CLR, but the same problem--refusing to boot. So, I figured both drives can't be suddenly bad, so it must be an internal issue with the computer. But...what if CLR dirtied the first drive and then I popped it in the second drive and it dirtied that one too? That would explain why both had the issue.

3. Then I clean the head last night. Pop in Carmen Sandiego and it works perfect. Next up, I grab CLR and try that. Nope, no booting, the same issue comes back. That's when I realized...maybe CLR is the the problem.

 

BUT... (1) There is one outlier, because I did play CLR several weeks back and it worked perfect and didn't cause any issues. Maybe I just got lucky that time. And (2), can one disk really cause this much of a problem to the drive? It is a legit, official disk, not a backup copy. And I had just cleaned the drive. And the CLR disk looks clean to me...it's not like it's covered in goo or finger prints, as far as I can tell. So does this seem like a possibility? Or is that unrealistic and probably just a coincidence? If it is a possible issue, what's the solution? Is there a way to clean a disk without damaging it? CLR seems to have some value, so I don't want to just chuck it in the trash.

[Keatah]

New developments...

 

I am starting to think I was wrong, and that it is the disk drive, rather than an internal issue. And perhaps even that the issue is caused by the Championship Lode Runner disk (let's abbreviate as CLR). I don't have a head cleaning disk (SIDE NOTE: Where can I get one? Didn't see one on ebay.), so I took one of my disk drives apart and cleaned the head with a q-tip and alcohol.

 

Reasonable assumption. You can get head cleaners on ebay AT ebay prices!! Meaning expensive. Keyword search 5.25 HEAD CLEAN or 5.25 DRIVE CLEAN.

 

A Q-tip usually suffices.

[Keatah]

Booted it up with the Carmen Sandiego game and... BAM, there it is WORKING PERFECT, booted right up. That seemed to confirm the issue as being related to a dirty head. So I thought, great, it's cured, and I put in CLR.... well, didn't work--instead, back to the same old nonsense with it refusing to boot up. Figured maybe that disk was bad, so I tried Carmen Sandiego again a few times. Nope, now that failed to boot too. It was getting late after that, so I didn't go any further, but I will work on it more this weekend. But let's walk through everything again, and consider it through the lens of CLR being the problem:

The problem can manifest itself as being intermittent, with tendency toward fail.

Oxide particles and chunks of dried lube, on a microscopic scale can wedge in the microscopic groves/troughs in the head surface. Sometimes they get stuck, sometimes they bulk up and get broken free, only to come around next rotation and get stuck again. Sometimes they pick up and stick with ambient dirt, snowballing, and even cutting the surface of the disk - thereby ruining it forever. That kind of damage is visible. And in extreme cases. you can partially see through the disk provided the damage lines up same tracks same side.

I'm dealing with this problem right now with MEMOREX disks. Copy program gets half way done, then I have to clean the head, then finish the 2nd half. And clean the head again. For each disk. Other rattier rustier looking disks simply fly right through!! But these pristine memorex jobbers? Pfaaggghhh!

[Keatah]

1. The computer worked perfect for a couple months. No issues. I moved it from the downstairs to the upstairs. The first game I popped in was CLR. No booting up. This was the first time the problem ever occurred.

2. Then I tried my other disk drive. Popped in CLR, but the same problem--refusing to boot. So, I figured both drives can't be suddenly bad, so it must be an internal issue with the computer. But...what if CLR dirtied the first drive and then I popped it in the second drive and it dirtied that one too? That would explain why both had the issue.

3. Then I clean the head last night. Pop in Carmen Sandiego and it works perfect. Next up, I grab CLR and try that. Nope, no booting, the same issue comes back. That's when I realized...maybe CLR is the the problem.

 

BUT... (1) There is one outlier, because I did play CLR several weeks back and it worked perfect and didn't cause any issues. Maybe I just got lucky that time. And (2), can one disk really cause this much of a problem to the drive? It is a legit, official disk, not a backup copy. And I had just cleaned the drive. And the CLR disk looks clean to me...it's not like it's covered in goo or finger prints, as far as I can tell. So does this seem like a possibility? Or is that unrealistic and probably just a coincidence? If it is a possible issue, what's the solution? Is there a way to clean a disk without damaging it? CLR seems to have some value, so I don't want to just chuck it in the trash.

 

A problem I had on one of my old-school Disk II (metal case model) was the cable connecting the analog board to the motors and speed board was loose/dirty. I don't recall if that is in these drives, but its an easy check.

 

IF CLR sullied the first drive there is no reason why it would not dirty up the send drive. Once a disk is shedding oxide and lube, that's it. All it takes is a few rotations.

 

If you're really sentimental about CLR and want to keep it "nice" then simply stop using it. Alternatively the jacket can sometimes be opened (depending on the method used to close the flaps), and a new disk can be inserted. OR just just use an image from asimov.

 

Like I said, these MEMOREX disks are perfect in cosmetic appearance, but they're not doing all that great. Mostly when a disk sheds oxide due to mfg defects or cheap process it'll do it all over the disk, and not in any one spot.

 

I've never had to bulk-clean the entire surface of a floppy, but have removed them from the jacket on several occasions. Probably the safest and easiest way for general users to clean these is to simply run them on the flipside and exercise the head with a non-destructive head mover program or READ-ONLY surface verify. The felt pressure pad then collects all the gunk, then you clean that or replace that, too!

 

Issues like this are only going to get worse over time - hence the popularity of using images modern solid-state solutions. And using the drives for old-time's sake and nostalgia or when absolutely necessary like cracking/archiving and that sort of thing.

[Keatah]

BUT... (1) There is one outlier, because I did play CLR several weeks back and it worked perfect and didn't cause any issues. Maybe I just got lucky that time. And (2), can one disk really cause this much of a problem to the drive? It is a legit, official disk, not a backup copy. And I had just cleaned the drive. And the CLR disk looks clean to me...it's not like it's covered in goo or finger prints, as far as I can tell. So does this seem like a possibility? Or is that unrealistic and probably just a coincidence? If it is a possible issue, what's the solution? Is there a way to clean a disk without damaging it? CLR seems to have some value, so I don't want to just chuck it in the trash.

 

1- the problems "have" to start at one time or another.. Oxide shedding is cumulative on the heads, reset only by cleaning.

 

2- absolutely yes! One pass of a disk copier with JUST ONE of these NIB NOS Memorex disks requires a cleaning afterward, otherwise nothing reads or boots or anything.

 

The layperson's solution? Grab the information and run! Don't use the aging disk anymore. The technical solution? Vapor deposit a new lubricant layer.

 

I'm setting aside the memorex disks from my archiving project to see the exact cause. The wife suspect there is a the sno-plow effect going on. Just the top surface may be fluffy and shedding and once it's done the disk will work fine. But from visual inspection you'd never ever know they're bad!

[Keatah]

Why not clean both drives' heads good, and exclusively use the brand new disks for a couple of days? I had no issues writing them, verifying them and running each program.

[Retro STrife]

Thanks for all that advice,, very helpful. I'm going to do some trial and error this weekend to see if I can confirm for sure that the CLR disk is the problem. i.e., cleaning the drive heads, making sure my other games work, and then trying CLR to see if it creates the same non-booting issue again. After that I'll probably just sideline that game for now and go back to enjoying the others.

[Keatah]

CLR should be in the disk pack you received.

[Retro STrife]

The verdict is in.....

 

After extensive testing this weekend, I can confirm that this whole issue was caused by dirty heads on both disk drives. I have thoroughly cleaned both drives and they are up and running great. Tested with multiple games and all booting up perfectly. Played games with no issues.

 

What threw me off, of course, was that both drive heads got dirty and stopped working at the same exact time by the same disk, which misled me to believe that the issue was with the internal hardware (i.e., believing that both drives wouldn't go bad simultaneously, so it must be something else). I'm glad that it turned out to be an easy fix, and that I learned quite a bit in the process, since I had never needed to mess around inside my IIe or the disk drive before.

 

Thanks to everyone for the advice, especially Keatah for walking me through it. I hope this helps someone in the future who runs into the same issue.

[Keatah]

The future is here and our floppies are rusting away!

 

How are the new disks from Amazon? Do they work without requiring head cleanings?

[Retro STrife]

Yes, I tried several of those, and they all work great. A few were acting weird (for example, the Wolfenstein games), but I think that's because I was trying to play with the keyboard rather than a joystick. I'll have to try the joystick and see if it plays better. My joystick is in rough shape though; definitely need to buy a replacement soon, so I keep putting off playing certain games that use the joystick.

[spacecadet]

Yes, I tried several of those, and they all work great. A few were acting weird (for example, the Wolfenstein games), but I think that's because I was trying to play with the keyboard rather than a joystick. I'll have to try the joystick and see if it plays better. My joystick is in rough shape though; definitely need to buy a replacement soon, so I keep putting off playing certain games that use the joystick.

 

Wolfenstein isn't going to play any better with a joystick (IMO of course).

 

The thing with a lot of Apple II games is that we learned to work around the fact that they were basically crap in a lot of ways. A lot of Apple II games just don't control very well. In most cases it's actually because of the slow CPU, so there's a lag between input and display. I think the Apple II wasn't particularly well suited to most action games for this reason. It's better at things like simulations or role playing games that required more memory than most computers of the day had. Of course there are exceptions; things like Lode Runner that didn't have very advanced graphics, or Choplifter or Wings of Fury that were at heart pretty simple side scrollers.

 

Anyway, glad you figured out your disk drive issues. I had the exact same problem. I don't think it's really worth paying Ebay prices for a head cleaner when it takes 5 minutes to open and clean one of those drives with a Q-tip, and probably do it better than any disk-based cleaner would. Though I admit that not all drives might be as easy to take apart, but the Apple 5.25 drive is very easy.