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SpartaDOS - Early Versions

Disk Images ATR Manual PDF Scan

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#1 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:54 AM

Were there ever disk images and manual scans made for the early versions of SpartaDOS?

 

Scans of a floppy and manual cover can be seen at Atarimania of one early version: SpartaDOS (1984)

 



#2 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:09 AM

I think the earliest I have is 2.x.  I can image them but I'd assume those versions are out there.



#3 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:29 AM

I think the earliest I have is 2.x.  I can image them but I'd assume those versions are out there.

 

These versions were covered by the construction set, which was released in '85: 1.1 HS, 2.3e, 3.2d

 

It's not really a matter of having the earlier versions available for use, though, but more a matter of archiving the original early releases in their original forms for historical and informational purposes.

 

So I'd be interested in ANY release version disks, and of course ANY older manuals too.

 

I don't even know, was SpartaDOS 3.2 ever released on it's own or just released with the construction set? I'd assume there was another release version, since the construction set version is already at 3.2d.


Edited by MrFish, Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:32 AM.


#4 TheEditor OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:30 AM

I have this one which identifies itself as 1.1HS from 1984.

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by TheEditor, Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:31 AM.


#5 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:38 AM

I have this one which identifies itself as 1.1HS from 1984.

 

This is just disk one of 1.1HS from the SpartaDOS Construction Set. So this one is already available.


Edited by MrFish, Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:32 AM.


#6 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:01 AM

 

These versions were covered by the construction set, which was released in '85: 1.1 HS, 2.3e, 3.2d

 

It's not really a matter of having the earlier versions available for use, though, but more a matter of archiving the original early releases in their original forms for historical and informational purposes.

 

So I'd be interested in ANY release version disks, and of course ANY older manuals too.

 

I don't even know, was SpartaDOS 3.2 ever released on it's own or just released with the construction set? I'd assume there was another release version, since the construction set version is already at 3.2d.

OK - it seems I only have 2 disks which have been released.  I got them with my US Doubler which I think I got in 88 - maybe 89.



#7 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:19 AM

 

These versions were covered by the construction set, which was released in '85: 1.1 HS, 2.3e, 3.2d

 

It's not really a matter of having the earlier versions available for use, though, but more a matter of archiving the original early releases in their original forms for historical and informational purposes.

 

So I'd be interested in ANY release version disks, and of course ANY older manuals too.

 

I don't even know, was SpartaDOS 3.2 ever released on it's own or just released with the construction set? I'd assume there was another release version, since the construction set version is already at 3.2d.

 

The construction set came with SpartaDos 2.3 and SpartaDos 1.1 on two disks. IIRC SpartaDos 3.2D was released with the RTime-8 cartridge as a SDCS supplement. The ICD source code I have has a version 3.5 but I don't recall that ever being released. The next one to come out was SDX 4.19 and then there were a couple of revisions in short order after that to bring it up to 4.22.



#8 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:02 PM

As mentioned above, SpartaDOS 1.1 HS, 2.3e, & 3.2d all came with the SpartaDOS Construction Set. I recently obtained original images for all of these from someone who owns the set.

 

The R-Time 8 / SDCS Supplement literature states as such:

 

The SpartaDOS Construction Set package includes:

1) a diskette containing the standard SpartaDOS version 1.1 on the front and public domain games with the LOGOMENU program on the back side

2) a diskette containing both SpartaDOS version 2.3 and 3.2 with their supporting command files


Edited by MrFish, Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:02 PM.


#9 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:09 PM

Well when I bought my copy of the SDCS, it only came with two versions, 1.1 and 2.3. 3.2D didn't come out until the RTime-8 was released. That's why there is no mention of 3.2 in the original SDCS manual and there is an addendum in the RTime8 manual that describes the new 3.2 features. Maybe they reissued the construction set with 3.2 included, but the original construction set did not have 3.2 in it.



#10 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:18 PM

Well when I bought my copy of the SDCS, it only came with two versions, 1.1 and 2.3. 3.2D didn't come out until the RTime-8 was released. That's why there is no mention of 3.2 in the original SDCS manual and there is an addendum in the RTime8 manual that describes the new 3.2 features. Maybe they reissued the construction set with 3.2 included, but the original construction set did not have 3.2 in it.

 

Alright, that makes sense. I'd wondered myself why it wasn't mentioned in the SDCS manual. They probably did update the SDCS disk later but not the manual. Good historical information.


Edited by MrFish, Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:18 PM.


#11 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:56 PM

 

Alright, that makes sense. I'd wondered myself why it wasn't mentioned in the SDCS manual. They probably did update the SDCS disk later but not the manual. Good historical information.

 

3.2d was the last that ICD did.  Then FTe (Fine Tuned Engineering, Mike Hohman) bought the rights to

SpartaDOS and came out with, my opinion, the best and final disk based one, 3.2g.

I'm not sure who did the cart versions, SpartaDOS X, (4.2 I think).  I didn't take to SpX very well.

Just guessing, I think SpX cart came out about the time FTe bought SpDOS.  I don't think FTe sold SpX.

After reading the A8 FAQ,    versions 3.3x disk based came out.  Never liked any of them.  Somebody

did the cart versions, I think FTe bought the rights to the cart versions.

I'm pretty sure Mike Hohman still owns the rights to SpartaDOS.

 

UH OH.  I got into a major controversy.  I just Googled Mike Hohman FTe and

it brought up major discussion of such big A8 names as Lance Rinquist,

 

Seems Mike may have failed to fulfill orders and other stuff.


Edited by russg, Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:52 PM.


#12 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:12 PM

I think Michael Gustafson wrote SpartaDOS X, but it was a ground-up rewrite, not based on Sparta 3.x at all. FTE did sell a slightly updated version of SDX.



#13 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:06 PM

I doubt that. I think SDX is an evolution of 3.2. We just never saw the intermediate step, to wit:

 

$title(SpartaDOS - Version 3.5)

; 02-17-86
;       Version 3.2 completed and released.
;
; 12-09-87
;       Added Atari XF551 support for high speed and
;       double sided operation.
;       Source made compatible with the ICD XASM65 assembler.
;       Version 3.5 completed (never released).
; 12-28-87
;       Found and fixed update mode bug in RSLW.
;       Between 12-09-87 and now, SIO has been kludged for INDUS,
;         XF551 and USD high speed mode.  Status command kludge added
;         because INDUS accepts high speed commands normally and will not
;         respond.
;       Moved CLI instruction in SIO.  Caused lockup if errored out.
; 12-29-87
;       Updated source to use SEGLOAD functions just added to the assembler.
;       Rewrote code in XERRORS.  Much shorter now.
; 12-30-87
;       Finally have conditional assembly.  Modifying source to handle
;         diskbased and cartbased DOSes.  Input flag is CARVER (1=cart
;         based dos, 0=disk based)
; 12-31-87
;       Removed minibuffers and increased speed for the file and drive
;       data table save/restore routines.
; 1-3-88
;       Extensive rewriting and organizing so that cart version and disk
;       version use same modules except for the boot code blocks for
;       each version.
; 1-?-88
;       Removed AINIT code and 256 byte buffer.  Rewrote the READY routine
;       and update boot sector routines to not need the 256 byte buffer.
; 2-5-88
;       Combining of MENU program to SpartaDOS CP. Involves redoing GENIO
;       module and much of the filename processing and formatted directory
;       routines.
; 2-15-88
;       MENU and Command Processor fully combined.  Now have general error
;       vector (GIO_ERROR) on GENIO.  All print statements also in that
;       module.  The formatted directory listing has been generalized so
;       that is useful from the MENU program.  In the process, some of the
;       AtariDOS formatted directory stuff is lost.  Now working on Relocating
;       Loader and Symbol Table.  Next step is to get ADOS.SYS as an external
;       module!
 

SDX is just 3.5 more modularized with some rewriting no doubt.



#14 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:33 PM

I doubt that. I think SDX is an evolution of 3.2. We just never saw the intermediate step, to wit:


Having developed drivers for SDX, I see few vestiges of SD 3.x. I see a kernel totally separated from the CIO and a completely relocatable system for a start. Some notes about symbols and relocation and making ADOS an "external module" do not prove that SDX is just a cleaned up, refactored SpartaDOS 3.5. In any case, the wiki says it was developed from scratch:

http://atariki.krap....x.php/SpartaDOS

#15 fujidude OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:08 PM

 

3.2d was the last that ICD did.  Then FTe (Fine Tuned Engineering, Mike Hohman) bought the rights to

SpartaDOS and came out with, my opinion, the best and final disk based one, 3.2g.

I'm not sure who did the cart versions, SpartaDOS X, (4.2 I think).  I didn't take to SpX very well.

Just guessing, I think SpX cart came out about the time FTe bought SpDOS.  I don't think FTe sold SpX.

After reading the A8 FAQ,    versions 3.3x disk based came out.  Never liked any of them.  Somebody

did the cart versions, I think FTe bought the rights to the cart versions.

I'm pretty sure Mike Hohman still owns the rights to SpartaDOS.

 

UH OH.  I got into a major controversy.  I just Googled Mike Hohman FTe and

it brought up major discussion of such big A8 names as Lance Rinquist,

 

Seems Mike may have failed to fulfill orders and other stuff.

 

I bought a SpartaDOS X (4.2x) cartridge from I.C.D. in 1989.  I.C.D. was still around at that point, and FTE wasn't on that scene yet.



#16 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:47 PM

Yeah well, I'm not so sure how accurate that web page is. SpartaDos 3.2 supports a lot more than 126 directory entries per directory, and I'm pretty sure 2.3 does as well. Only Gustafson would know, but it seems unlikely he would go through all the trouble of updating 3.2 to 3.5 and beyond, giving it cart capability and then just throwing it all away and starting over.



#17 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:14 PM

Try the wikipedia entry instead:

https://en.wikipedia...iki/SpartaDOS_X

SpartaDOS X is named after its predecessors, SpartaDOS 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 (also ICD products), and enjoys good level of backward compatibility with the older SpartaDOS software. But it is not, contrary to what can be thought considering the name and the version number, a newer version of SpartaDOS 3.0. It was a completely new system, written from scratch.


Who propagates these untruths? :) Simply using SDX and comparing it with SD 3.x suggests to me it would have been easier to write SDX from scratch than create it by modifying SD 3.x, but you can go further and study the disassembled SDX kernel source or read the programming docs. Obviously "written from scratch" does not automatically imply that the author carefully burned the floppies containing useful code from previous versions before commencing, but it's sufficiently different to the core to be considered a newly written project. It isn't the first time those who aren't fans of SDX have accused it of being a modified (or even ruined) progression of SD 3.x, but this is not generally indicative of great insight.

#18 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:03 PM

For sure that SDX was well before FTE acquisition. But I'm not sure it was written by Mike Gustafson. I seem to recall an authoritative post (by Curt?, probably here) that it was written by somebody else.

 

Btw, those early versions must be pretty rare. Have seen plenty original copies of SDCS, but I don't recall seeing an earlier original disk with the white label as the image at Atarimania pointed above.



#19 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:53 PM

Well looking at the source for 3.5 and the source for SDX, I'd say that there are sufficient regions of duplication that I'm comfortable with characterizing SDX as a major evolution of 3.5 which is itself a significant upgrade of 3.2.

 

"Written from scratch" means all new code, with no reuse from other projects. It has no other meaning, and has nothing to do with burning of diskettes. By including significant portions of prior SpartaDos code, SDX doesn't qualify as written from scratch. That's not to say it's not a marvelous piece of coding, because it is; Gustafson was no slouch. I've only used SpartaDos since the original SDCS came out. My only complaint is that SpartaDos has no way of detecting data overlays. Only if a map sector gets killed do you find out a file is bad, whereas AtariDos can find a bad file as soon as sector link gets overlaid. Even with that, I still think SpartaDos is the best DOS for the Atari 8-bit.



#20 fujidude OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:17 AM

"Written from scratch" means all new code, with no reuse from other projects.

 

From scratch is a slang term, and its use has a fairly wide variance.  Your interpretation is one of them, but not the only one.  If you buy a frozen pizza... I love pizza by the way, and I'm addicted to it; but I digress.  ;-)  Anyway, if you then bake and serve that frozen pizza, I think most everyone can agree that you didn't make and serve pizza made "from scratch."

 

On the other hand, if you use flour, baking powder, yeast, etc. to make a crust, mix meats and spices together in a grinder to make sausage, pick tomatoes out of your garden to be the basis for the pizza sauce, make your own cheese from direct from the dairy stock, etc., then I think it's pretty safe to say most people will agree that you did make it from scratch.

 

Then, there is the in between; not buying a fully pre-assembled pizza but still using some pre-formulated ingredients.  This is where different people often have differing views on what qualifies as "from scratch."  As for myself, I consider pizza made from different store bought ingredients as scratch.  For example buying cheese, sausage, etc.,; even a pre-fab crust is still scratch to me.  But if I buy a frozen pizza and just doctor it up a bit by throwing on a bit of extra cheese, a few more pepperoni, etc., then it doesn't qualify.

 

Now let's take this all a little bit further.  Let's say Jim and Sally are married and shop at the same grocery store.  That grocery store is a bit on the small side and only has one kind of each thing.  Both Sally and Jim like to make pizza from their own individual recipes.  Now then, any ingredient that common to both of their pizzas is the same brand from the same store; like the mozzarella cheese for example, or sausage.  But how much or what proportion may be very different.  Also, in addition to sausage, Jim likes to put on pepperoni, Canadian bacon, and hamburger.  Sally just uses sausage for meat, but puts on onion, green-pepper, sun-dried tomatoes, and both kinds of olives.  Jim uses only ripe olives and doesn't put any green-pepper on.  Sally makes her crust from flour and baking ingredients she buys at the store, while Jim buys a pre-fab crust.  Both pizzas are designed and made in the same household.  Each uses some ingredients which are identical to what the spouse has made before.  But they are both from scratch.

 

Furthermore, Jim has this really new kind of pizza he likes to make.  He uses Alfredo sauce and mixes in a bit of ranch dressing instead of a traditional sauce.  He uses chicken for the meat and uses Parmesan & feta cheeses.  For this one, Jim doesn't think the pre-fab crust he bought for his other pizza  works quite as nice as scratch crust, but he's really busy and doesn't have a lot of time to make one; so he uses crust that Sally made ahead and froze as it fits the bill quite nicely for this new one.  And yes, that also qualifies as a scratch pizza in my eyes.  People may differ on it, though I have no problem with FJCs choice to use the term scratch for SDX.  I also see where you are coming from, but it's just semantics really. 


Edited by fujidude, Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:20 AM.


#21 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:20 PM

Thanks a lot.  Now I am hungry for pizza.



#22 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:27 PM

Without sight of the slam-dunk SD 3.5 source code, it's pointless debating the matter. Released disk versions of SpartaDOS comprise a single non-relocatable block of code containing the file system handler and integral command line terminal which fits under the OS ROM, and some other stuff in low memory. You can put all that on a cartridge if you want, just as you can put MyDOS on a cartridge, but that doesn't make it SpartaDOS X. SDX is a million miles away from the above description of disk based SpartaDOS (SDX being a kernel, relocating, linking symbolic loader, symbol table, ROM disk, and complete suite of fully relocatable drivers and tools, with segments able to reside in main memory, under the OS, or in extended RAM), so only if the unseen SD 3.5 sources (which I can find mentioned nowhere else but here) build into something which resembles SDX, can SD 3.5 be considered a tangible progression towards SDX.

 

We already know that SDX re-implements COMTAB and preserves some OS ROM vectors for the sake of compatibility, but the system was clearly built from the outset as a cartridge. If it re-uses - say - the PRINTF library and bits of HSIO code from earlier versions, it would come as no surprise, and this would not disqualify SDX from being a re-write. I have written libraries for formatted output, UIs, etc, used in most of my projects now, but just because a new project relies on previously written code to perform common tasks like printing numbers to the screen does not mean the new project is not a brand new project. Likewise SD 3.x and SDX use essentially the same file system to this day, so it would be surprising if bits of the SPARTA.SYS driver did not share a passing resemblance with bits of the SD 3.x file system handler.

 

But as the dude says, one could argue that it is a question of interpretation. We already crept from "more modularized with some rewriting" to SDX being "a major evolution of 3.5 which is itself a significant upgrade of 3.2". I wouldn't necessarily even argue with the assertion that SDX is "a major evolution" of SD 3.2, let alone the veiled 3.5, since it uses the same file system and a CLI, but is twice as powerful, relocatable, etc. But that doesn't mean it wasn't rewritten, and I think the definition of "rewritten" is actually quite germane here.

 

But, as said, without sight of the code, we must accept what's written as impartial and objective, and therefore we can debate the matter no further.


Edited by flashjazzcat, Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:36 PM.


#23 fujidude OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:27 PM

Thanks a lot.  Now I am hungry for pizza.

 

You're welcome.  I had pizza for lunch today in fact.



#24 drac030 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:19 PM

Having been acquainted with the SDX 4.20 source code I would doubt if anyone asserted that the SDX 4.20 is just a development of an earlier system, which had matured for some time.

I am pretty sure that at least the SPARTA.SYS was being written from scratch, and that it has not been finished: the SEEK function in 4.20 is, er, suboptimal (= much worse than in 3.2), also the driver contains scraps of unused code which apparently was the proper SEEK in development.

If SDX is a development version of the 3.2, I would rather expect that at least the main file system driver (SPARTA.SYS) would contain imported code for the most part.

There are also quite a few examples of provisional/unfinished code all around the place, which makes you think that it was rather a ground up rewrite than simple expansion.

To be honest, looking at the code I sometimes tended to suspect that SDX was a completely different system, which has been later made backward compatible to SpartaDOS for commercial reasons. But that is just me.

Edited by drac030, Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:21 PM.


#25 suspicious_milk OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:26 PM

Instead of relying on just donations, why not sign up with a print on demand service? I for one, would love a dead tree edition of the manual... Bet I'm not alone





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