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WHT SCSI card will not Format drives at all.

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#1 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:41 AM

Ok since I sent off my SCSI card custom built for me from Don O'Neil to Richard Bell for repair.

But he sent me another card he said was upgraded, but since I have gotten the card it will not in no way format a SCSI drive.

I get it to complete but at the end it never stops after comple  and just sits there for 8 hours and says 
"COMPLETE" 

Locked up with SCSI card lite on and never ends. No key input works and it should say press any key to continue.

I have tried every single program I could find to work from through all the versions and years....none work.

 

Also this card will not create files as it just screws old SCSI drives I had, this is how I lost my XB ROM SOURCE.

 

Anyone have a solution?

 

P.S. It copies files and reads fine, just will not write anything without making a mess.


Edited by RXB, Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:43 AM.


#2 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:47 AM

I recall experiencing similar problems when the termination was not quite right. 

 

Can you share how the card and drive are physically connected including cable and termination descriptions?

 

Also what type of drive(s) and how are you powering them.

 

Are the DIP switches set properly for your TI system?


Edited by InsaneMultitasker, Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:58 AM.


#3 schmitzi OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:05 PM

yes, terminators/resistors would be my guess too, & cabling

 

what was it on SCSI-1 ? 90 Ohm ? Or was this ArcNet ?  :-D



#4 OLD CS1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:41 PM

330 ohms, IIRC.  SCSI termination is a special kind of voodoo. :)



#5 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:55 PM

I recall experiencing similar problems when the termination was not quite right. 

 

Can you share how the card and drive are physically connected including cable and termination descriptions?

 

Also what type of drive(s) and how are you powering them.

 

Are the DIP switches set properly for your TI system?

 

Single drive with terminators installed. My Quantum SCSI drive is the only one left that works properly as I have never saved a single file to it or modified any names to it.

I power the drives with a PC power supply that could handle 4 IDE 40 Gig drives easy, (I have tested it).

The only good drive is a Quantum ProDrive LPS out of an old Apple Drive. Matter of fact I have 3 of them and the only one not ever written to is the only one that works.

 

All the others I have tested on a PC using a SCSI controller card and it sees them fine. The drives work, the problem seems to be the card Richard Bell sent me.

 

All the Dip Switches and drives set up are exactly the same. The upgrade SCSI DSR seems to be the issue I think.

 

Just so you know all the drives are almost the same Apple Quantum SCSI drives as they all have boards that are almost exactly the same and all are the same size.

So clearly the problem is the SCSI DSR and how it does not write to drives properly as proof is cables and power make zero difference.

And I am not stupid enough to continue onto doing that to yet another drive.


Edited by RXB, Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:58 PM.


#6 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:06 PM

With my EZ135s I use the on-board resistor networks.  With the external EZ135s, I use an active centronics terminator.

 

Is the SCSI cable the same as what you use with the PC ?   You said termination is installed.  What drive model/type is this?



#7 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:47 AM

With my EZ135s I use the on-board resistor networks.  With the external EZ135s, I use an active centronics terminator.

 

Is the SCSI cable the same as what you use with the PC ?   You said termination is installed.  What drive model/type is this?

I used same SCSI ribbon cable  on both the PC and the WHT SCSI card and swapped ribbon cable on both. 

Nothing wrong with terminator or cable or the SCSI card. The problem seems 100% to be the DSR is written badly.

It reads fine just will not ever end a format routine on 3 different Format routines in the programs:

SCUZZY (3 versions)

SDM (4 different versions)

DM2K (2 versions)

 

Also any drive I ever use write to from the WHT SCSI card would just make the drive corrupted and unfixable.

Sector edit reads drives fine but does not save properly.


Edited by RXB, Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:48 AM.


#8 Lee Stewart OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:33 AM

Perhaps, posting some pictures of your configuration—especially the terminator(s)—would help focus troubleshooting.  Also, the drive model numbers Tim requested would be useful.

 

...lee



#9 schmitzi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:55 AM

Hi, if it´s passive termination, maybe one resistor (on the drive) is a bit flappy?

 

I can remember having such an issue decades ago, and a set of terminators "worked" with one controller but didn´t work on another.

Was solved by chance just by renewing a terminator/resistor. Swapping to active termination would have solved too,

 

you could check/change the resistors for another test....

but you are right, I would not use my productive disks on any tests now

better put them away :-D 

 

 

they were red or orange, 2 per drive

Attached File  SCSI-Resistors-small.jpg   49.28KB   1 downloads

 



#10 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:00 PM

Perhaps, posting some pictures of your configuration—especially the terminator(s)—would help focus troubleshooting.  Also, the drive model numbers Tim requested would be useful.

 

...lee

Agreed, pictures of the card and drive would help.  

 

I seem to recall that some SCSI card revision(s) have termination resistors and that for certain drives, you had to remove the termination from either the drive or the card. I will poke around my printouts for any proper documentation.



#11 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:51 AM

WTF! Why do you guys keep talking about Termination? 

I told you I can see and read the drives fine with this current SCSI card, I just can not WRITE TO SCSI HARD DRIVES as they become corrupted, nor can I format a SCSI drive.

Both drives that work are Quantum Pro Line model 42S drives, both drives were formatted and created BEFORE THIS SCSI CARD I GOT FROM Richard Bell to replace my SCSI card made in front of me by Don O'Neil.

I fail to understand why all this talk about something that has nothing to do with the current issue.

 

If Termination was bad I would not be able to READ or WRITE and Termination would not be WRITE ONLY!

 

SCSI Hard Drives I created before the SCSI Card change work fine for READ but this new SCSI Card will not WRITE or FORMAT! (How many times do I have to repeat the same data?)



#12 OLD CS1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:08 AM

That is not necessarily true, Rich.  There are other signals on the SCSI buss which must be stable to indicate certain statuses of devices, the controller, the buss itself, or for the device and controller to actually understand each other.  These could be considered "out-of-band" as they are signals not part of the data path.

 

In any case, time and time again throughout time immemorial SCSI termination has been the solution to a SCSI problem with otherwise working devices.  Aside from swapping out cables and devices and controllers, it is one of the easiest things to check and given the instances -- admittedly anecdotal and vicarious, but infer what you will -- of occurrence, should be one of the first things checked.

 

It could be that the controller in its old state prior to repair was tolerant to the imbalance in the cable, or introduced its own imbalance that somehow made a poor environment work.  Now that it has been fixed it is or your devices are no longer tolerant to the environment. 

 

Similar situation, I replaced a network switch at a location which had a roughly 500 ft (distance discovered during later troubleshooting) CAT5 run between buildings: way out of spec.  We replaced the switch because it was constantly over-heating and it was a consumer OTS model, anyway, so we really wanted something industrial in place.  But the link between buildings stopped working.  As it turned out, the old switch over-heating was probably related to why it was putting out way too much signal, which could have been bad regulation internally or that the original 9v power supply had been replaced with a 16v (I have to wonder if that was accidental or someone actually went all Tim Allen on the project) or because of whatever had cause the other three of five-ports to burn out, or just one big vicious circle of what-the-frig.  Anyway.

 

The card could be to blame, but maybe not in the negative connotation.  You mention it had been upgraded.  How?

 

EDIT: Also, formatting and writing do have something in common: data being sent to the device.  A format does not just happen in a vacuum: the filesystem has to be laid out and that requires sending information to the disk.

 

Another question: what about drives which have never been used with this card before?



#13 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:07 AM

OLD CS1

"The card could be to blame, but maybe not in the negative connotation.  You mention it had been upgraded.  How?"

 

I was told to send the SCSI card I had that was built by Don O'Neil at the introduction of the SCSI card and I got number 1, but they replaced it with number 13 as Mike Maksimik needed it to make a 

DSR for the card to talk to CD ROM on the GENEVE. So this is the card I had for many years and worked perfectly even when I sent it out to be upgraded.

Instead what Richard Bell sent me back was different card with a upgraded EPROM according to him.

Also since the changes in the card RXB 2001 would no longer work with the card as they changed the byte order for some SCSI commands on the card, hence upgraded version of Utility programs.

 

I destroyed 5 of my SCSI drives with this card before I gave up using it to write in any fashion ever. Included was the loss of the SCSI drive with RXB ROM SOURCE.

Later by 2012 I was told to upgrade RXB to work with the SCSI card as someone pointed out the BYTE order was changed. It was during this that I figured out the SCSI Card might be the problem.

I could not get anything in RXB 2012 to work with the card to write to a SCSI drive, just read and no write. I just gave up using the SCSI card and stuck with Classic99 and MESS.

 

I have only brought this up as others have SCSI cards and I wanted to know if RXB 2012 or 2015 worked with SCSI upgrades as I can not test mine.

 

That is what brought this subject up.

 

OLD CS1

"what about drives which have never been used with this card before?"

 

As explained above they have been used on my two SCSI cards and a buddy at the PUNN User Group tested them on his SCSI card  and they worked fine. But he never wrote to them.

This entire problem only stared the day I got the new SCSI card from Richard Bell. Nothing else explains this.


Edited by RXB, Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:08 AM.


#14 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:12 PM

As explained above they have been used on my two SCSI cards and a buddy at the PUNN User Group tested them on his SCSI card  and they worked fine. But he never wrote to them.

This entire problem only stared the day I got the new SCSI card from Richard Bell. Nothing else explains this.

 

Rich, 

 

The above sentences tie into my reasons for (1) asking for some photos and (2) reviewing termination.   You say that a PUNN member tested the drives?  If he never wrote to them, then the test was not thorough.  You cannot say the drives worked fine based on read only tests, as your own attempts have proved.

 

You say the problem started the day you got the new SCSI card from Richard.  Do you mean he sent you a card very recently or are you referring to the card you had when the drives were trashed?  Is it the v1.6 EPROM with daughterboard?  Have you reached out to Richard?

 

I might have a spare EZ135 drive and a few platters that I could send you, with a 50-pin cable, for testing.  I have used EZ135s with the Rev E,F, and G cards, single and in pairs, with no problems formatting, reading, or writing.   In my mind, your card, cable, and drives are all potential suspects until you can rule them out individually.  Same goes for the PC power supply, especially if you have not tested the 12v and 5v output under load (i.e., when the drive is connected and turned on).



#15 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:40 PM

 

Rich, 

 

The above sentences tie into my reasons for (1) asking for some photos and (2) reviewing termination.   You say that a PUNN member tested the drives?  If he never wrote to them, then the test was not thorough.  You cannot say the drives worked fine based on read only tests, as your own attempts have proved.

 

You say the problem started the day you got the new SCSI card from Richard.  Do you mean he sent you a card very recently or are you referring to the card you had when the drives were trashed?  Is it the v1.6 EPROM with daughterboard?  Have you reached out to Richard?

 

I might have a spare EZ135 drive and a few platters that I could send you, with a 50-pin cable, for testing.  I have used EZ135s with the Rev E,F, and G cards, single and in pairs, with no problems formatting, reading, or writing.   In my mind, your card, cable, and drives are all potential suspects until you can rule them out individually.  Same goes for the PC power supply, especially if you have not tested the 12v and 5v output under load (i.e., when the drive is connected and turned on).

No I have got the new SCSI Card about  4 years Ago I think, not sure about the date sorry. 

I did ask Richard Bell what the problem I was having was and he said the new SCSI card and EPROM was fine, but I never had a single problem till I got this new SCSI card and the old one never had any problems.

 

I did have EZ drives also and they all got wiped into oblivion when using this new SCSI card if I ever wrote to them. Again all worked fine with old SCSI card why do I have to repeat this?

When I saw Classic99 I just put all my TI hardware in the attic and gave up. Also gave away a ton of my Hardware in disgust with the Hardware problems after losing RXB ROM SOURCE CODE!

 

It might be better if I have you look at the card to confirm the issue. As for the devices and cables I have hooked them up to a PC and all work fine on that PC SCSI card. 

Thus if it is cables why would the work only on the PC side? If Drives why would only issue be the TI side? 

I have 3 Apple Pro Line 42S drives and one  I tested on the PC worked fine but not on the TI, also I could use a PC SCSI program to look at the sectors on the TI drives that work fine.

 

By the way I have 4 versions of PC SCSI cards and all 4 worked on the SCSI hard drives. I could format, save programs and read them, but not on the TI could I Format, or write to these drives. 

Same exact cables and drives used.

 

Look the only common thread here is that freaking card will not WRITE to SCSI devices properly, using same exact cables and drives. Nothing else makes any sense.


Edited by RXB, Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:45 PM.


#16 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:42 PM

I know it is frustrating for you to answer the same questions seemingly over and over again, but without some context it is hard to rule things in or out. And unlike PC hardware, we can't just go out and get new hardware.

 

Back in '94 a group of us spent a few days with Bud Mills in a hotel looking at code, developing routines, and considering software specs for the card.  Even then I recall differences in how some pieces worked together.  For example, the older SCSI cards do not have on-board termination, and getting them to work can be tricky. 

 

The DSR has no known issues with EZ135s so I am inclined to say a chip, trace, or some other hardware is at fault. I am in no position to repair the SCSI card but If you want me to test it to confirm the problem, I can do that for you.  If it fails, I can pass the card to Richard. Or contact him directly and ask him if he has time to look at it.  No sense in you continuing to connect hardware to the card at this point in time.



#17 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:42 AM

Where do you live I live in Vancouver Washington?



#18 nethermind OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:43 PM

Would it be naive to ask if anyone has a WHT SCSI card they are trying to get rid of?



#19 schmitzi OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:34 PM

Yes :D



#20 Shift838 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:11 PM

Would it be naive to ask if anyone has a WHT SCSI card they are trying to get rid of?

 

The WHT SCSI cards are very hard to come by.  I wated for about 10 years for one to pop up.



#21 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:39 PM

Oddly my post to explain how this problem was resolved was to never posted as it must have been deleted by a system AtariAge reset or reboot?

 

I got the SCSI card to finally Format properly by using a PC program to wipe the SCSI drives of all sectors and data, then format them using the PC.

 

At that time after hooking the SCSI drives back up to the TI using the SCSI card I could then format them for the TI to use.



#22 OLD CS1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:55 PM

It is a strange thing but I have had that happen between all sorts of controllers, so it makes sense that was your solution (in retrospect, anyway.)  In particular, take a RAID drive and try to make it non-RAID in Intel controllers (even when not in a RAID configuration, and even after you supposedly un-mark them the controller still recognizes them as a member of a now-broken RAID array,) and a number of other nightmare stories over the past 15 years.

 

As soon as I had a problem re-purposing a drive I wipe it and nine times out of 10 that resolves the issue, to the point now that I just immediately fully wipe a drive when re-purposing.  I could kick myself for not seeing that as a solution to your problem.

 

All re-purposed customer drives got wiped as a matter of course, so that just became the SOP.



#23 InsaneMultitasker ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:26 AM

I wouldn't have thought the wipe would fix it, since data could be read from drives, which implied (to me) that data had been written as well.  I don't quite get how a wipe would affect only the writing, though I do recall similar format symptoms with other drives.  I just never considered the wipe a solution. Interesting indeed.



#24 RXB OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:13 AM

It is a strange thing but I have had that happen between all sorts of controllers, so it makes sense that was your solution (in retrospect, anyway.)  In particular, take a RAID drive and try to make it non-RAID in Intel controllers (even when not in a RAID configuration, and even after you supposedly un-mark them the controller still recognizes them as a member of a now-broken RAID array,) and a number of other nightmare stories over the past 15 years.

 

As soon as I had a problem re-purposing a drive I wipe it and nine times out of 10 that resolves the issue, to the point now that I just immediately fully wipe a drive when re-purposing.  I could kick myself for not seeing that as a solution to your problem.

 

All re-purposed customer drives got wiped as a matter of course, so that just became the SOP.

Actually the dive was used for the TI SCSI before I had this problem the only thing that changed was the SCSI Card upgrade, this is why I was so upset and perplexed.

Some how the way it talked to the drive rendered the drive unwritable  as it would mess up the sector map and make hundreds of directories each time I copied a file or program.


Edited by RXB, Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:14 AM.


#25 OLD CS1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:17 AM

Actually the dive was used for the TI SCSI before I had this problem the only thing that changed was the SCSI Card upgrade, this is why I was so upset and perplexed.

Some how the way it talked to the drive rendered the drive unwritable  as it would mess up the sector map and make hundreds of directories each time I copied a file or program.

 

After upgrading the firmware on a RAID card our customer Solaris x86 system refused to complete the boot process.  When booting using CD media I found I could only mount volumes in read-only mode.  I remember there being something screwy with the array so I attached some new drives, set up a new array and did a quick install, which worked fine.

 

After working several hours with Dell and the card manufacturer (which escapes me ATM) it was determined the new firmware would not allow the drives to be written and the fix would be to wipe out the array and redo everything.  We had enough positions available (UW-SCSI) to set up a second array and ufsdump/ufsrestore across them via boot media but we did not have drives on-hand large enough to accommodate existing data.  The manufacturer would not provide us previous firmware versions, but as Dell never deletes stuff (or never used to, I have no idea about these days) the tech was able to locate the prior version and get it to me.  A quick firmware flash and everything worked again.






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