Original Video Quality vs. Best Video Quality

[0078265317]

What about the opposite???

 

 

But I voted for keeping the outputs original. It is a cost issue, but also I'm okay with them. Maybe I'm just used to them looking that way. Yeah, my 360 and XBox One are hooked up via HDMI, but I'm okay with my NES being rf. I dunno... to each his own.

 

Great topic, though, Jin. When I voted the votes were even.

 

Nice. And original is the best. It was good enough back then and its good enough now. Except atari 2600 looks awesome on my 4k tv.

[Flojomojo]

What about the opposite???

 

Remember when the Xbox 360 was new, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over unreadable text in some of the games on SDTVs?

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118833

 

We don't hear that anymore.

[Rick Dangerous]

I'm right in the middle. I don't tend to like RF, but a composite AV mod is good enough for me. I can't be compelled to shell out the big bucks for RGB mods and upscalers in the hundreds like the XRGB Mini, the ROI just isn't there for me. Composite is what I grew up with and its good enough for me. That being said for later systems where Component or VGA (Dreamcast, lol) is available i'll definitely spring for the cable...

[godslabrat]

 

Nice. And original is the best. It was good enough back then and its good enough now.

 

See, I'm gonna respectfully disagree. A lot of stuff wasn't "good enough", even back then, it's just that I didn't have better options available to me.

[keepdreamin]

See, I'm gonna respectfully disagree. A lot of stuff wasn't "good enough", even back then, it's just that I didn't have better options available to me.

I find myself simply replying " No" to the majority of his posts.

[BillLoguidice]

Yeah, there wasn't much good about RF connections other than them working with our TVs at the time. There was often interference/static, etc. Composite was obviously a step up, but even that could be improved upon if the system supported S-VIDEO (or equivalent), etc. That's why I find the idea of sticking strictly to era appropriate display tech rather limiting. If we had something better available at the time, like a high quality monitor versus a TV, I'm sure we would have jumped at the chance to use it.

 

Ultimately, this question is probably philosophical, meaning just what using vintage tech means to you. Some people are cool with a software-based emulator, while others want nothing less than era-specific everything, dismissing even things like flash carts. I think many of us fall somewhere in-between those two extremes. In any case, while I have pretty much original everything for many dozens of systems, I would hate to give up the modern conveniences I've also acquired.

 

Even though we rally around vintage tech, I think of this hobby as constantly evolving. That's certainly a notable part of the fun factor, i.e., being able to do new stuff with the old stuff. While I would no doubt still be fascinated by just using stuff strictly from back in the day, I suspect it might lose some appeal if we indeed didn't have new stuff to "freshen things up". There's only so many ways to discuss, remember, and analyze the same things over and over again. New stuff breathes new life into things and is a perfect companion to the shared nostalgia.

[Eltigro]

 

Remember when the Xbox 360 was new, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over unreadable text in some of the games on SDTVs?

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118833

 

We don't hear that anymore.

 

I do remember. When I first got my 360, I was married and the 360 was connected to the flat screen in the living room.

 

Then I got divorced and she kept the tv.

 

So I had my 360 hooked up to the 27 in tube that I had since before getting married. I played on it for about a month or so before I got my 42 in LCD. I don't really remember what games I was playing, but I do remember having difficulties seeing things.

[alex_79]

I'm not sure you're correct on interlaced fields taking 2 frames. Both fields get their update within the same frame. That's how 240P can get away with a progressive image at 60 fps. Instead of going odd/even within that 17ms window, it can stay on one set of lines.

NTSC is 525 lines interlaced at 60Hz. (PAL/SECAM is 625 lines at 50Hz).

You have 60 fields per second each with 262.5 scanlines. That half scanline is what allows interlacing because cause every other field to be offset vertically so that it's drawn in between the scanlines of the previous one.

Each field uses about 240 lines for the active picture, so the total resolution in about 480 lines (483, if I remmeber coreclty). It takes two 60Hz vertical refreshes to scan all those lines, so the framerate is 30Hz.

 

To display it on a progressive scan TV such as a LCD it must be deinterlaced, and to do so both fields need to be received first. On a CRT the electron beam just moves in sync with the signal.

 

 

Old consoles and computers used a non-standard signal by slightly altering vertical synchronization timing, so that the fields don't have that half scanline. (for example they can all be 262 or 263 lines). Without that half scanline, what in standard NTSC are the fields are now drawn always at the same position and become actually progressive frames. Framerate is 60Hz and vertical resolution is about 240 lines. This is a non standard signal, but it happens to work on CRTs. On the other hand, many digital TVs or generic upscaler don't recognize it. (you need a dedicated upscaler like the framemeister in that case). Being progressive, each frame can be upscaled individually (at 60 fps).

 

 

The terms 480i and 576i actually refers to the digital versions of the analog standard definition 525 and 625 lines; anyway they are often used also to designate analog signals. By analogy the terms 240p/288p are also commonly used, altough they don't really exist as a standard in digital nor analog video.

[BydoEmpire]

After getting a couple of $3 RF/Coax adapters I haven't had anything but nice, clear pictures from my original consoles on old TVs. They look great. I was frustrated using 30 year-old TV switchboxes and their inconsistent output - often unplayably so - but those little adapters are great. I haven't liked the look of classic games on modern TVs & monitors (in the rare case I play on an emulator I always turn on scanlines, etc), nor do I have the time, patience, money or interest to explore making them "look right to me." I'm perfectly happy with my tube TVs and RF output. It looks the way the games were designed to look, way I remember them looking over the years, and it's simple and cheap. I get that others want to explore what's possible and enjoy the process of trying things out, or they just like a different look, or that emulation fits their needs. That's cool, too.

[Eltigro]

After getting a couple of $3 RF/Coax adapters I haven't had anything but nice, clear pictures from my original consoles on old TVs. They look great. I was frustrated using 30 year-old TV switchboxes and their inconsistent output - often unplayably so - but those little adapters are great.

Yeah... waiting on mine. I ordered one from someone on Ebay, and they shipped it in one of those plastic bubble mailer envelope things. Envelope tore or got caught on something in the mail and I was delivered an empty envelope. Talked to the seller and sent them pics of the envelope and they are sending me a replacement... so... more wait...

[+Black_Tiger]

I try to get RGB or the best that is available for every console to play on my 32" crt. I use a framemeister to capture HD video.

 

I like keeping original video output and when possible, having mods for several types of output.

 

Many 240p console supported RGB or various outputs and aren't authentic only when you choose the poorest available.

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

I always strive for best video quality over originality.

While originally is important to me, I'd rather have the best picture and audio possible.. I'm an audiophile and it's impossible for me to ever go back to RF after having a taste of better looking and sounding options. I have consoles I leave stock but there's others I like to deck out with nice clean looking mods. In fact, one of the parts I enjoy the most about classic gaming is tinkering around with these consoles, trying to learn more about electronics in general and hone my soldering skills. Like others have already said, I'm also trying to future proof my consoles.. CRTs aren't going to be around forever. I already had one Toshiba start failing but I recapped it, hopefully making it last another 20 years. Even though I keep a few CRTs around, these flat panels aren't going anywhere anytime soon.. So I might as well start slowly upgrading everything.

Edited January 7, 2017 by SiLic0ne t0aD85

[keepdreamin]

Even though I keep a few CRTs around, these flat panels aren't going anywhere anytime soon.. So I might as well start slowly upgrading everything.

 

Flat panels might not be going away anytime soon, but high quality A/D circuitry is. New sets don't even have analog inputs.

[juansolo]

This is very much the problem these days. Modern sets have less need to cater for low res analogue signals. In the UK we no longer have analogue broadcast TV, so I expect that'll be dropped soon enough. My TV is a 5 year old Panasonic plasma and that already has no VGA and no S-Video connection on it, and the single Scart on it is very finnicky. In that most things don't work right on it. I'm amazed it still has a composite video socket on there to be honest with you.

With sets getting cheaper and cheaper less money is spent on things that a small niche market, like retro gaming, want on a set. So your options before long are really to get an older panel from a more analogue era, a CRT, or some sort of scaler to go in-between to take the input signal and turn it into HDMI.

[Flojomojo]

I do remember. When I first got my 360, I was married and the 360 was connected to the flat screen in the living room.

 

Then I got divorced and she kept the tv.

 

So I had my 360 hooked up to the 27 in tube that I had since before getting married. I played on it for about a month or so before I got my 42 in LCD. I don't really remember what games I was playing, but I do remember having difficulties seeing things.

 

Happy thought: big flat TVs are cheaper and better than they were back then, and you're out of a bad relationship. Winning!

[godslabrat]

What I find exhausting about this topic is that so many people essentially say "You don't know how games were meant to be played if you're not using a CRT.", and likewise "You don't know how good games can look on an HD set."

 

It's possible that someone can have had both experiences and found a preference. And that's okay.

[AtariLeaf]

I like keeping my consoles original. The idea of drilling holes in the case and rewiring with modern components just seems wrong to me. It's like putting a Hemi in a Model T - it can and has been done but like Goldblum said in Jurassic Park that you're so preoccupied if you could you didn't stop to think if you should.

 

At the end of the day it's a personal decision and my personal decision is to leave it original.

Edited January 8, 2017 by AtariLeaf

[alex_79]

I like keeping my consoles original. The idea of drilling holes in the case and rewiring with modern components just seems wrong to me.

Actually I'm bothered about that too. When modding a console I try to keep everything reversible.

I don't cut and solder directly to the pins of the chips (unless they're common parts still produced today), and instead trace the board and desolder and lift (so I don't lose them) discrete components to obtain the same results. If it's not possible, I cut traces on the pcb in areas where can they be easily repaired.

 

Instead of drilling the case I prefer routing cables through existing holes (for example the one for the rf cord) and use in-line sockets.

And I don't buy mint condition, boxed consoles to mod them. I purposely seek cheap ones in untested or non-working condition, which usually are also in poor cosmetic shape.

Restoring them is part of the fun for me. and if they cannot be fixed they'll be source for parts.

Edited January 8, 2017 by alex_79

[juansolo]

What I find exhausting about this topic is that so many people essentially say "You don't know how games were meant to be played if you're not using a CRT.", and likewise "You don't know how good games can look on an HD set."

 

It's possible that someone can have had both experiences and found a preference. And that's okay.

 

I have, that's why I have two separate set ups. I've had the 240p consoles running through a SLG-in-a-box (does the same job as a Framemeister) into my panel. I now have them going into a CRT with every all the other consoles still plugged into the panel.

 

 

I like keeping my consoles original. The idea of drilling holes in the case and rewiring with modern components just seems wrong to me. It's like putting a Hemi in a Model T - it can and has been done but like Goldblum said in Jurassic Park that you're so preoccupied if you could you didn't stop to think if you should.

 

At the end of the day it's a personal decision and my personal decision is to leave it original.

 

In the UK we've never really had that luxury. Being the poor cousins to Japan and the US when it comes to releases, enthusiasts have been modifying consoles from back in the day to play other region's software. Likewise we were stuck with PAL versions of software that doesn't run full screen or full speed most of the time because of the 60hz to 50hz nature of most games. On the upside we've had SCART for a long time also (the double edged sword that SCART is) which means many consoles ran RGB here and most of our TVs supported it, again back in the day. Amusingly my modern panel doesn't like a lot of my RGB consoles... So we have to get creative. As I say, I expect that makes us far less precious about keeping things original.

 

Admittedly my 2600 back in the day was RF only, because I was a child and hadn't learned how to solder yet But from the SNES onwards, I don't think anything other than the Dreamcast has remained standard until we get to the HDMI equipped consoles. When I do finally get around to getting a 7800, I'll have to get a US one which likely won't work with a PAL analogue tuner (not to mention I'd want to plug it into the PVM which doesn't have one...). So again if I want it to work, modification is the only option.

 

As an aside, I learned to solder from modifying consoles, and I currently make guitar effects pedals as a sort of thing as a direct result of that. Cool huh?!

Edited January 8, 2017 by juansolo

[CGQuarterly]

Back in the day we were limited by what American TVs were capable of. RGB naysayers like to say that RF and composite are "how the games are meant to be played", but with the exception of things like the Apple II which took advantage of composite video to perform graphical tricks, this is simply not true. The Atari 2600 and other consoles of it's generation were RF-only because that's what 99% of TVs back then were capable of. At that time, composite video was more commonly found on a "computer monitor". The NES had composite video because that was becoming more common on consumer TVs, but beyond that look at how many consoles were RGB-capable out-of-the-box because that was a standard TV input in other parts of the world. The SNES and Genesis were never "meant" to be played in composite; we just didn't have RGB here. Same for the Playstation and Saturn; they are both s-video-capable because by then that was becoming standard here, but again are both RGB-capable with no mods. As far as I'm concerned, with some exceptions, RGB is how pretty much every game was "meant to be played", but consumers in this country were limited by the technology of their TVs.

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

Flat panels might not be going away anytime soon, but high quality A/D circuitry is. New sets don't even have analog inputs.

That's true, but if that's the case, I'll just buy older model flat panels with analog inputs online.. NOS TVs will be a lot cheaper anyways.

If not, there's always those clunky converter boxes, but I'd prefer to not go that route. I plan to mod everything to HDMI (if possible). So far, I'm good for ColecoVision and Dreamcast, via a VGA to HDMI converter, but all the other systems will have to go the RGB to HDMI route. However, I'm not in a hurry on RGB until I get a Framemeister or something similar, now that it's out of production.

 

All in all, It'll but be a long, expensive process but it'll pay off, the results speak for themselves.. ColecoVision in HD is amazing. On the other hand, let's say I get tired of a system, I could always flip it on ebay for bucoo bucks too.. People pay crazy money for Hi-Def modded consoles.

[ubersaurus]

I haven't modded any consoles for superior video-out, but I do have RGB cables for systems that can output that natively, and did pick up better-shielded RF cables for my early consoles. I've also got an upscaler on order, but that's specifically for usage on a new tv/better quality video capture. I reason that the consoles were built for older standard-def hardware, and for the most part the hardware and games were developed with the limits of consumer televisions in mind when it came to visuals. Most Genesis games use dithering effects based on most people using composite output, etc. Not opposed to doing those mods down the line, but it's certainly not a priority.

[keepdreamin]

I've had the 240p consoles running through a SLG-in-a-box (does the same job as a Framemeister) into my panel.

Sorry. I got to step in here. It does a similar job not the "same". Unless you're running custom firmware, the GBS8200 detects 240P as 480i. It still handles it better than most other cheap scalers, but you can still get unnecessary interlacing artifacts. You're also not getting a digital HD output signal. It's still analog.

[juansolo]

Sorry. I got to step in here. It does a similar job not the "same". Unless you're running custom firmware, the GBS8200 detects 240P as 480i. It still handles it better than most other cheap scalers, but you can still get unnecessary interlacing artifacts. You're also not getting a digital HD output signal. It's still analog.

 

 

Taking a 240p source signal, stripping the video signal from the sync, scaling it, then adding scan lines if required. Yes it outputs VGA, hence it's going into a VGA-HDMI converter. I'm not commenting on quality, just function. In which, other than the final stage of analogue to digital signal conversion, it's pretty much doing the same thing. Really, I'm not interested in a pissing contest on who's got the best scaler. Good grief.

[keepdreamin]

Taking a 240p source signal, stripping the video signal from the sync, scaling it, then adding scan lines if required. Yes it outputs VGA, hence it's going into a VGA-HDMI converter. I'm not commenting on quality, just function. In which, other than the final stage of analogue to digital signal conversion, it's pretty much doing the same thing. Really, I'm not interested in a pissing contest on who's got the best scaler. Good grief.

Wasn't a pissing contest. Yeeesh. I just didn't want someone scanning by your post with the impression the slg in a box is going to do the same thing as the framemeister. Two different purposes.