Original Video Quality vs. Best Video Quality

[juansolo]

Fair enough. I'll update the post appropriately.

 

EDIT: Bah, won't let me. I was going to be amusing too. *shakes fist at forum software* damnit!

Edited January 9, 2017 by juansolo

[alex_79]

[...] by analogy the terms 240p/288p are also commonly used, altough they don't really exist as a standard in digital nor analog video.

I stand corrected on this: by looking at HDMI 1.3a specs, I discovered that 240p/288p actually exist as digital video standards since they're defined in CEA-861-D. Devices are not required to support those video formats, though.

 

These are resolutions and frequencies defined in HDMI specs:

 

720(1440)x240p @ 59.94/60Hz

2880x240p @ 59.94/60Hz

720(1440)x288p @ 50Hz

2880x288p @ 50Hz

 

You never stop learning!

Edited January 10, 2017 by alex_79

[mr_me]

 

Flat panels might not be going away anytime soon, but high quality A/D circuitry is. New sets don't even have analog inputs.

By high quality A/D circuitry do you mean analog to digital conversion circuitry? These HD TVs seem to do a good job with 1080i or 720p analog signals. But when it comes to standard definition, the conversion is horrible. Some do a better job than others but I dont know if any are high quality. Edited January 10, 2017 by mr_me

[godslabrat]

By high quality A/D circuitry do you mean analog to digital conversion circuitry? These HD TVs seem to do a good job with 1080i or 720p analog signals. But when it comes to standard definition, the conversion is horrible. Some do a better job than others but I dont know if any are high quality.

My 10-year-old 1080p Mitsubishi LCD set does a pretty good job, but it was made in the days when HDTVs were still being used primarily for analog signals, with digital kind of being a fringe benefit. To give some perspective, it has four sets of composite inputs, two component inputs, and s-video... but the big selling point of this particular set was that it had TWO HDMI ports at a time when having one was a pretty big deal. Two, can you believe it? What a time to be alive...

 

So yeah, I've been sitting pretty as far as A/D conversion goes, but as that set starts to age out, I now realize that buying a new set with analog ports isn't necessarily going to do the job. If it has the ports at all, they might be crap. It's a smarter move for me to find something like a Framemeister and invest in that. At least then, I'll know exactly where the A/D conversion happens, and that it'll be a known quantity in my setup.

 

So time also plays a factor. 10 years ago, I had the luxury of saying I wanted purely original hardware. Now I don't.

[keepdreamin]

By high quality A/D circuitry do you mean analog to digital conversion circuitry? These HD TVs seem to do a good job with 1080i or 720p analog signals. But when it comes to standard definition, the conversion is horrible. Some do a better job than others but I dont know if any are high quality.

Go look at the latest line of 4K Samsungs, only HDMI inputs.

[alex_79]

Go look at the latest line of 4K Samsungs, only HDMI inputs.

Interesting to note that models for Europe still include analog RF tuner (but they lack the other analog inputs just like their US counterparts).

 

http://www.samsung.com/uk/home/

 

http://www.samsung.com/us/

 

[keepdreamin]

Interesting to note that models for Europe still include analog RF tuner (but they lack the other analog inputs just like their US counterparts).

 

http://www.samsung.com/uk/home/

 

http://www.samsung.com/us/

 

 

Does look like the US has coax as well. But that's it.

[HoshiChiri]

 

Does look like the US has coax as well. But that's it.

 

Considering that coax is the way most homes get their cable TV signals, I don't imagine that disappearing anytime soon. Kind of ironic that as newer units get left behind, Atari will remain easy to play with a single adapter for most folks.

 

Two factors really stop me from upscaling my vintage stuff: cost & cables. Framemeisters are expensive. A/V modding about a dozen consoles is more so (and really possible for all of them, very few people attempt to mod Fairchilds, for example). Considering I do intend to use my CRT again for older units, it seems like a lot of money for a temporary issue.

 

I also just don't like the amount of signal conversions that need to be done for "best" video. System->scart->rgb->scaler->hdmi to tv is what I normally see... and I just feel like that offers a lot of failure points along the way. Not to mention one HELL of a rat's nest of cables. My setup's already a tangled mess, I don't need it to be worse!

 

I just stick with stock- I'm well aware the picture's bad, but at least I can play until I can spread out & make something better.

[BillLoguidice]

 

Considering that coax is the way most homes get their cable TV signals, I don't imagine that disappearing anytime soon. Kind of ironic that as newer units get left behind, Atari will remain easy to play with a single adapter for most folks.

 

 

I don't believe that's the reason. Cable or satellite boxes take the coaxial input and then (preferably) output HDMI. I think the coax on current TVs is for supporting over-the-air HD antennas.

[keepdreamin]

 

 

System->scart->rgb->scaler->hdmi to tv is what I normally see... and I just feel like that offers a lot of failure points along the way. Not to mention one HELL of a rat's nest of cables. My setup's already a tangled mess, I don't need it to be worse!

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a ton of signal conversions. Each of those steps you listed isn't a conversion, RGB is carried over scart. If I was to use your naming system for hooking up composite it would be: system->RCA cable->composite->upscaler->HDTV.

 

There's only 1 signal conversion taking place, and that's analog to digital. That's happening either in something like the framemeister, or your TV's internal scaler if it has analog inputs.

 

I'm also confused where you think all these "extra" rats nest causing cables are coming from. The only "extra" cable in a framemeister setup vs not is the one HDMI cable between it and the TV. Using scart isn't adding more to your setup, you're using those cables in lieu of composite, svideo etc.. each system is still only using 1 video cable. Instead of a composite switcher, you'll use a scart switcher instead.

Edited January 16, 2017 by keepdreamin

[juansolo]

 

Considering that coax is the way most homes get their cable TV signals, I don't imagine that disappearing anytime soon. Kind of ironic that as newer units get left behind, Atari will remain easy to play with a single adapter for most folks.

 

I also just don't like the amount of signal conversions that need to be done for "best" video. System->scart->rgb->scaler->hdmi to tv is what I normally see... and I just feel like that offers a lot of failure points along the way. Not to mention one HELL of a rat's nest of cables. My setup's already a tangled mess, I don't need it to be worse!

 

 

The problem with the RF socket (as it is on UK sets) is they fit both analogue and digital tuners currently. You need the analogue one for the old consoles, and analogue TV ceased broadcasting in the UK in 2012. So that's a redundant piece of kit in there now. The socket might remain, but I wouldn't expect the analogue circuitry to.

 

For the conversion. Most consoles from the Megadrive & SNES onwards up to the Dreamcast (that can also do VGA) are native RGB (N64 aside, it's only missing a few parts to get it though). It's just that the US didn't really have that as an option on their TVs so you didn't see it there, and SCART is a connector. So there's no processing happening at this point at all. It's only when you take that output signal (usually 240p) and turn it into something else that processing happens. Which is pretty much the scaling and any standards conversion from analogue to digital. Which happens if you're displaying your console on a panel TV, regardless of if you plug it in with RF or SCART. Because the TV will need to upscale it to display it on the panel internally.

 

This is where the corners are more and more getting cut, and even a cheap £20 Chinese scaler can actually prove to do a better job than a cheap TVs internal analogue signal handling (it does a better job than my five year old Panasonic plasma does...). A Framemeister is currently the best regarded piece of kit for the job (it does other things also, must mention that), but it comes at a MASSIVE cost. Whether you'd be happy with the £20 solution, something in-between or a Framemeister is entirely down to how far you want to go and how much you want to spend. But the further up the tree you go, the more you'll also need to look at your source signal.

 

Scalers (generally) and well set up panels are ruthlessly revealing, and some of the old consoles on their 'lesser' connections are going to look bad or have issues/artefacts. I know, because I've been through all this and it becomes a right PITA to deal with some of them. I've jumped through some ridiculous hoops to get a really good picture out of most of my old consoles on my panel and my scaler (that isn't a Framemiester, which is different, but would have had all the same issues). You can read all about it on my site if you fancy it (the Retro Gaming vs Modern TVs bit. It's very UK-centric so we have issues the US wouldn't also, and different RF connectors).

Edited January 16, 2017 by juansolo

[alex_79]

The problem with the RF socket (as it is on UK sets) is they fit both analogue and digital tuners currently. You need the analogue one for the old consoles, and analogue TV ceased broadcasting in the UK in 2012. So that's a redundant piece of kit in there now. The socket might remain, but I wouldn't expect the analogue circuitry to.

 

I'm just guessing here, but isn't some analog to digital conversion circuitry still needed even for digital over-the-air transmissions such as DVB-T or ATSC? (Aren't radio frequency signals analog, even if they carry digital data?) If so, maybe the reason old analog TV systems over RF are still supported even when all the other analog inputs have been dropped is because the circuitry and connector is already there, and it's just a matter of adding support in software.

 

Also, while analog TV has been abandoned, analog modulators are still an easy and cheap method to distribute a video signal to every aerial socket in the house with the minimum amount of cabling. I have the SAT-box analog (scart) output going to an rf modulator and I then connecetd and mixed it's output to that of the main antenna. So I see SAT TV on the main TV (which is connected through HDMI to the SAT receiver), but I can also see it in every other room as an analog channel (in SD, of course), without interefering with digital ones.

 

I haven't yet upgraded to a digital modulator, because I really don't need HD for the small TVs in the kitchen or bedroom and the low quality analog signal is good enough for my needs. Anyway, recently HD DVB-T modulators became affordable (there are models in the 200 - 300 EUR range), so I will probably upgrade someday (as a comparision analog modulators are usually 20-30 EUR). In the meantime, I'm glad analog rf is till an option on newer TVs.

 

Not really related to retrogaming, I know. And I agree that eventually analog rf will be abandoned, but it might outlive the other analog inputs for a while.

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by alex_79

[juansolo]

I'm assuming a bit here so I stand to be corrected.

The DVB-T signal is coming in on RF so it needs to be converted. However I doubt that requires the analogue tuner at all, which is the bit you need for the old console's analogue RF signal.

Anything going into an RF modulator is essentially taking a signal (probably Composite video and mono sound) and modulating it into RF. It's what happens internally on a 2600 essentially. You're also taking a potentially better signal and degrading it by converting it to RF by the way. It also still leaves you needing an analogue tuner unless someone has created a box that converts your signal to DVB-T. Which again, given what the source is, seems an odd way to go.

Edited January 17, 2017 by juansolo

[alex_79]

I'm assuming a bit here so I stand to be corrected.

 

The DVB-T signal is coming in on RF so it needs to be converted. However I doubt that requires the analogue tuner at all, which is the bit you need for the old console's analogue RF signal.

I thought that, once the rf signal is "sampled", all the remaining decoding is just done in software in modern TVs, even when dealing with analog PAL/NTSC/SECAM. But I really don't know for sure.

 

Anything going into an RF modulator is essentially taking a signal (probably Composite video and mono sound) and modulating it into RF. It's what happens internally on a 2600 essentially. You're also taking a potentially better signal and degrading it by converting it to RF by the way. It also still leaves you needing an analogue tuner unless someone has created a box that converts your signal to DVB-T. Which again, given what the source is, seems an odd way to go.

Absolutely (RF modulators take composite video and mono or stereo audio as input), but while analog rf is still supported on modern TVs, it's an easy way to watch (for example) the News on SAT channels while having lunch in the kitchen. The HDMI output is connected to the main TV in the living room. It all depends on what are your needs. DVB-T modulators will still degrade the signal a bit (because it must be compressed), but everything will remain digital, so with much less quality loss (and possibility of HD).

Edited January 17, 2017 by alex_79

[Schizophretard]

There seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to video output for playing classic consoles today, and I thought it could be interesting to run a poll to see which side of the fence the majority of AtariAge members lean towards.

 

On one hand there are people such as myself who like playing their classic consoles with the original built-in video output methods from their region, which for most systems prior to the HD era (basically everything that came out before the Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii U) means either coaxial or composite video if you live in North America. That's how I grew up playing these systems and to me the graphics just don't look right when enhanced with more modern video output options, so I stick with the original coaxial or composite output to a CRT TV like most people living in North America would have used back when the systems were current.

 

On the other hand, it does seem like a pretty substantial number of people want to get the best video quality possible out of their classic systems and often don't mind spending some rather large sums of money to do it. Whether that involves modifying the consoles to output more modern video formats like HDMI, RGB, or component, running the video through a Framemeister to upscale and clean up the image quality, or some combination of the two there are a lot of people out there who want the picture quality on their classic consoles to look as sharp as possible.

 

 

So, which camp do you fall into? Are you happy playing your systems with the standard video output methods from back when they were first released, or do you prefer to upgrade your systems' video output in some way to enhance the visual quality?

 

I think I'm somewhere in the middle and it depends. The only thing I'm sure about is that I prefer only systems with HDMI for HDTV's and systems with analog hook-ups to CRT. There could be exceptions. For an example, if I owned an Analogue Nt Mini I would probably use it on an HDTV sometimes as well as a CRT other times. But I mostly prefer SD and HD to be separated by display technology. If I had an EDTV then maybe consoles that could output component I would prefer on that. On the HDTV side of things that one is simple because if it outputs HDMI then that is what it gets. But with SDTV with a variety of hook-ups it depends. Sometimes I may want a system modded for S-video to put directly in the back of my biggest CRT to get that clear pixilated scan line look, other times it may be the same thing but RF into an S-VHS VCR to demodulate it into S-video, other times it may be RF into just a normal VCR to output composite to my composite only 9" Sony Trinitron to get the clear image of the picture being compressed down to that size of screen, etc. So, I guess it depends on which console on which of my CRT's from my TV collection that I'm in the mood for playing on and if I'm in the mood for going directly to it with the best video mod or if I'm in the mood to see how good of a picture I can get for the fun of it with using VCR's and other available options from back in the day. Also, if I owned dedicated monitors like the one for the PSone or the few I've seen for the Game Cube then I may prefer them for the cool factor of making them more compact and portable.

[HoshiChiri]

I'm not sure what you mean by a ton of signal conversions. Each of those steps you listed isn't a conversion, RGB is carried over scart. If I was to use your naming system for hooking up composite it would be: system->RCA cable->composite->upscaler->HDTV.

 

There's only 1 signal conversion taking place, and that's analog to digital. That's happening either in something like the framemeister, or your TV's internal scaler if it has analog inputs.

 

I'm also confused where you think all these "extra" rats nest causing cables are coming from. The only "extra" cable in a framemeister setup vs not is the one HDMI cable between it and the TV. Using scart isn't adding more to your setup, you're using those cables in lieu of composite, svideo etc.. each system is still only using 1 video cable. Instead of a composite switcher, you'll use a scart switcher instead.

 

Conversion isn't the right word- I don't know what is. The issue is: I hook up the framemeister, and there's no picture. What's the problem?

 

In my current setup, the system connects to a switchbox via composite, which is conntected to the TV via composite. If the signal goes out, I can remove the switchbox entirely & direct connect a couple systems to quickly isolate what's failed without spending more money.

 

The framemeister setups I've seen are as follows: system is connected to a scart cable, which goes to a component cable, which goes to an RGB cable, which connects to the framemeister, which connects to the TV via HDMI. Not only is that 2 extra cables, but if I only bought 1 system's cables to try things out, I'll need to spend money to have a second system to try the hookups with to find the issue. Now, if I've got the cable chain wrong and the scart is connecting directly to the framemeister, I apologize- I've just never seen anyone do that. (Although if that is the case, it introduces the new issue of not being able to hook all my systems up at once...)

[keepdreamin]

The framemeister uses a scart to mini DIN adapter. If you were to hook up say a Genesis alone (for simplicity sake) it would be Genesis RGB scart cable, to mini DIN adapter.

 

Component cable is nowhere in that chain. The component input is a separate connection on the back through D terminal. The framemeister uses adapter breakouts so the unit takes up a smaller footprint.

 

This whole worry about supposed failure points isn't grounded in reality, sorry

Edited January 17, 2017 by keepdreamin

[HoshiChiri]

The framemeister uses a scart to mini DIN adapter. If you were to hook up say a Genesis alone (for simplicity sake) it would be Genesis RGB scart cable, to mini DIN adapter.

 

Component cable is nowhere in that chain. The component input is a separate connection on the back through D terminal. The framemeister uses adapter breakouts so the unit takes up a smaller footprint.

 

So basically, my concerns are exactly the same, except it's 1 extra cable instead of 2.

[mr_me]

You can get scart switchboxes.

[juansolo]

The Framemeister does it all in one box. The DIN input on the front requires an adapter, that's all. That adapter can be a SCART socket. So if your console can output RGB over SCART you really want to be doing that. No signal conversion has taken place yet. In the FM box the signal is up-scaled, can have scan-lines added (which I highly recommend for 240p source material), and is then converted from analogue to digital. It's then outputted via HDMI to your panel at hopefully it's native resolution. In this instance, all the processing is happening in-box.

 

If you're in the UK you can plug said SCART directly into your TV. Within your TV the analogue signal is up-scalled then converted to digital to be displayed natively on the panel. They just tend to be not as good at it. All the stages (scan line generation aside) have to happen somewhere in order to get a picture on your panel as you're trying to run a low resolution analogue source on a high resolution digital display.

Ideally you want to be hitting the FM with the highest quality signal you can to start off with. The old hi-fi mantra of 'crap in, crap out' very much is in effect here and if you're really going to go out and blow the sort of money an FM costs only to feed it with composite video when RGB is an option, then the results are going to be pretty disappointing and I'd suggest that a FM is not the way to go in that instance.

Edited January 17, 2017 by juansolo

[juansolo]

You can get scart switchboxes.

 

The Bandridge SVB7725 mechanical switch boxes are what you want. There's a lot of power floating around on SCART connectors and they disconnect each input fully. Not all of them do that...

Edited January 17, 2017 by juansolo

[keepdreamin]

So basically, my concerns are exactly the same, except it's 1 extra cable instead of 2.

There's a couple thousand xrgb minis out there. Haven't heard of any issues. So..... Yeah.

[alex_79]

 

The Bandridge SVB7725 mechanical switch boxes are what you want. There's a lot of power floating around on SCART connectors and they disconnect each input fully. Not all of them do that...

Does it switch all the pins? I only have a couple of cheap scart switches and they're only wired for composite/s-video but not RGB.

[juansolo]

Does it switch all the pins? I only have a couple of cheap scart switches and they're only wired for composite/s-video but not RGB.

 

 

Yeah, they switch everything. I've got two of them plugged together and loads of stuff plugged through them.

 

See here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/260987-what-furniture-do-you-use-to-accomodate-your-machines/?p=3673794

[Yakumo1975]

Being from the UK we always had RGB since the days of the Master System and before so I've always played games with perfect image quality. These days, playing the same Master System on a modern HD TV via RGB and a Framemeister looks no different to how they looked back in 1987. So this pole is hard for me to answer. I guess I should choose original quality but in most people's eyes that means horrid RF or composite image.