1088XEL Alternative Mother-Board Project

[+MrFish]

Dam I can't get nothing past your keen observing eyes .

 

Yea I noticed that too, but only after I had fully assembled the unit and took pictures. It was such a B_tch getting it back together due to the fly-back transformer being in the way, I really don't look forward to taking it apart again, but I suppose I should to make things right. Perhaps not today .

 

Haha... well, the joys of posting your works to a public forum...

 

I wonder if it was intended to be mounted from the outside? In that case it would require some type of cover.

[+mytek]

 

Haha... well, the joys of posting your works to a public forum...

 

I wonder if it was intended to be mounted from the outside? In that case it would require some type of cover.

 

Done! View Results

 

Thanks for the suggestion .

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

Aspongy Demo Hangs System when it ends...

 

I don't know if this is normal, and I want to verify that it isn't some kind of 1088XEL related bug, but when I run the Aspongy Demo from WUDSON in PAL mode (haven't tried with NTSC) it plays all the way through and then hangs the system in the end. The lock up freezes Pokey's scan counter, stays at a black screen, and only responds to system reset. Also pressing any key does not appear to loop the demo as suggested at the linked to site. I've tried running it with 320K and 1088K, getting the same result.

 

- Michael

[Madi]

Aspongy Demo Hangs System when it ends...

 

I don't know if this is normal, and I want to verify that it isn't some kind of 1088XEL related bug, but when I run the Aspongy Demo from WUDSON in PAL mode (haven't tried with NTSC) it plays all the way through and then hangs the system in the end. The lock up freezes Pokey's scan counter, stays at a black screen, and only responds to system reset. Also pressing any key does not appear to loop the demo as suggested at the linked to site. I've tried running it with 320K and 1088K, getting the same result.

 

- Michael

I ran the demo under Altirra 2.99 test 10, Windows 10

The demo doesn't run with 256K memory (Rambo)

The demo loads and run with 320K memory (and higher - 576K and 1088K)

In both PAL and NTSC modes, pressing any key temporarily, the demo switches between the loop version (red) and single demo (grey).

Both versions of the demo will crash Altirra if the demo is left running to the end.

1- Any key pressed:

 

2- No key pressed:

 

madi

[+mytek]

FlashJazzCat just did a live stream un-boxing of a kitted 10088XEL, which when built will hopefully allow him to better accommodate it in his XEL specific U1MB BIOS version that is in the works.

 

To give you an even better idea of what a Mini-ITX form factor really is comparatively speaking, check out the 2 images below. Mini-ITX has a dimensional footprint of 170 mm x 170 mm.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8hiXMQfsWY

 

Thanks Jon

 

To answer some of Jon's questions in the video...

1. XEL board thickness = 2 mm vs. the 1.6 mm normally used in the industry. The extra thickness was suggested by Santosp because of the insertion force required when plugging in carts and/or a standard PBI device. The board thickness also affects the height of where the connectors all sit, including the cart, so changing that for the thinner 1.6 mm would also impact on the rear bezel and cart tunnel designs.
2. Pokey U6 gets an extra precision socket stacked on top to provide clearance for the TK-II chip underneath.
3. That loose connector that was packaged with the ribbon cable is a 2 mm IDC 44 pin crimp connector to enable adding a 2nd CF-to-IDE44 adapter board in parallel on the ribbon cable as a slave drive.
4. The back plate (bezel) was designed and ordered from the Front Panel Express free designer app. Here is that design file as well as a few others: 1088XEL Realan Custom Case Parts.zip
5. The PSU is a CUI P/N: SWI10-5-N-P5 90~264 VAC-to-5VDC/2amp power adapter which I have found to be extremely quiet in use (cheaper adapters can produce a hum in the audio output)
6. So what is the cost? Depends upon many factors, but worse case scenario if you bought everything in singular quantities including the Atari VSLI chips, U1MB, UAV, and the BOB12731 it could be as high as $230 just for the parts to build it. The bare PCB is relatively cheap, coming in at around $10 a piece through EasyEDA when ordering 10 pieces (minimum order = 5 pieces).

Since item 5 has a wide voltage range input, a simple passive adapter like this can make it work in other countries.

- Michael

[flashjazzcat]

Thanks for pointing that out Michael: I've edited the video title and notes to suit.

[+mytek]

Thanks for pointing that out Michael: I've edited the video title and notes to suit.

 

Hi Jon, I saw the title change (thanks). I have also added some notes which are mostly answers to some of the questions and quandary you had while doing the video (scroll back 2 posts to see the video as well as the notes).

 

Thanks once again for showcasing the un-boxing of the 1088XEL kit I sent you. It was quite fun and thrilling to watch, even though I already knew what was in the box .

 

- Michael

[Level42]

I want one....

[Level42]

 

No, I won´t

 

Thanks for feedback. I´m always curious to find out what other hardware wizards are using. I take a look at DipTrace for example, but this program is not my best friend. I´m using Eagle for years, but the last three projects I also start to route manually or route all power traces and important signals (video, audio etc.) by hand and let the autorouter make the rest on data-/adresslines. My intentions is also "a silly one": It looks better

 

Jurgen

 

I started to use Eagle a few weeks ago. To be honest, the last computerized software that I used for PCB design was something on the ST which I don't remember the name of (but it HAD an autoroutes....it was SO impressing)......Not long before that I did some PCB design (very simple) using clear sheets, rub off symbols and vinyl tracks !!! All 100% hand work....but I only designed one PCB during my apprenticeship during Electronics education.

 

I needed to learn Eagle now....it was a sometimes irritating but I watched a lot of youtube and read website pages..and all in all it was a lot of fun ...worked out fine. Autorouter is my friend....but I re-reroute what needs to be rerouted and further optimized.

 

My first PCB's are now being made on the other end of the world (well at least when they return from their holiday....)

 

So...anyway....using Eagle here now....

 

 

To come back on topic: I really like the look of the PCB and I admire your hand-routing, but I am a bit scared that there is absolutely no ground planes on either side of the PCB.......

 

Also you really really can not make the production run in green on such a nice board......anything but green please......I love black..... that will also look great with the white Lotharek U1MBs installed

Edited October 7, 2017 by Level42

[+mytek]

To come back on topic: I really like the look of the PCB and I admire your hand-routing, but I am a bit scared that there is absolutely no ground planes on either side of the PCB.......

 

If you are referring to the 1088XEL, perhaps you don't realize this is a 4-layer board with power planes in the middle layers. So in essence there is both a ground plane and a +5V plane sandwiched together, but unseen. This is the same way that the Atari 1400-50XL/XLD boards were made, which is superior to a ground plane on a 2-layer board. In essence the sandwiched planes create one big de-coupling capacitor that works in combination with all the individual de-coupling capacitors associated with each IC, so that switching noise is pretty much non-existent.

 

 

 

 

- Michael

[Level42]

Aha OK !!

 

Even more thumbs up for routing 4 layer manually !!!

[phaeron]

I ran the demo under Altirra 2.99 test 10, Windows 10

The demo doesn't run with 256K memory (Rambo)

The demo loads and run with 320K memory (and higher - 576K and 1088K)

In both PAL and NTSC modes, pressing any key temporarily, the demo switches between the loop version (red) and single demo (grey).

Both versions of the demo will crash Altirra if the demo is left running to the end.

 

256K (Rambo) aliases the 64K of main memory to four of the banks like some actual expansions do. Don't use it unless you're either trying to explicitly test for that case or are just in a masochistic mood.

 

The hang at the end isn't a crash, it's the demo just sitting in a loop. From the source:

	.proc start
	jsr init
	jsr spongy.init
	jsr spongy.effect
	jsr logo.init
	jmp *
	.endp

[Level42]

I probably completely missed this but are these available for sale yet ?

 

Completely awesome project and I have some great plans with one of those boards :)

 

I'm also very happy to see that it looks like the set up will allow my little PCB to be added on without problems :):

[AtariNerd]

With the upcoming PBI expansion cards, it's not too difficult to surmise that eventually some enterprising individual might come up with an expansion board add-on or find some way to integrate a few extra slots into the design, probably on a larger MB, to allow a few different expansions to be selected from. Of course, this brings up the need for a larger case to house them all. Most cases designed to accommodate anything beyond a single MITX and storage, seem to jump up quickly in volume, as they assume a far greater energy envelope and need to dissipate. Also, you have the problem of how to orientate the expansions, allowing ready access from the outside, if need be. They can get lost within the belly of a tower.

 

Thinking of what I might personally do, this one doesn't seem that bad of an option. Still low-profile and easy to wrap my head around, but has two COM ports and a couple of PCIE bays, with covers that can be swapped out for custom insets for whatever ports one might need and still enough room for a Micro or Flex power supply, if needed. Yes, the dreaded brick.

 

https://www.logicsupply.com/mc600/

 

There are a couple of others that have a similar design that might do, but I like the fact that this has a customizable face-plate. One could move the PBI CF to the front, along with any activity indicators, mouse selects, logo etc.

 

...but, I'll speculate about that more when the time eventually comes.

[+DrVenkman]

I want one....

 

 

I probably completely missed this but are these available for sale yet ?

 

 

Dude, impatient much?

 

No, they're not for sale yet. Not even sure they will be unless someone organizes a group buy, plus maybe group buys of the hard-to-source bits like the SIO ports, cartridge and MPBI connectors, etc.

[Level42]

I recently bought a cartridge connector from RS online to replace the one my (then) little nephew ruined on his/his dad's 800XL..... it took a bit of delivery time but I got it for sure so they are available.

 

Production date: 2007 ! I got a 10 year old connector...... t-t-t-t-t-t man man those contacts must have completely rusted away on that stock in 10 years....

 

Haha, no luckily it's not a electrolytic cap....it's a beautiful AMP connector and works perfectly.

 

Anyway those are still available....SIO ports though......

 

But the PCB design is there, if the test versions are 100% all I'd need is a bare PCB.

[Dropcheck]

I probably completely missed this but are these available for sale yet ?

 

Completely awesome project and I have some great plans with one of those boards :)

 

I'm also very happy to see that it looks like the set up will allow my little PCB to be added on without problems :):

 

The 1088XEL is almost ready. I know...... I know...... that's been the saying for months now. Trust me it won't be too much longer.

 

MacRorie is planning to offer assembled versions. I heartedly recommend that option. The details are still being worked out, but he indicates that he has started collecting the connectors on the back since they have to be ordered through Ebay in bulk.

 

I think he will also be doing a bare board option, but I seriously caution anyone who thinks the assembly of this board will be easy. It is a big project, not something a weekend solder jockey should try. The part # count is over a 100 distinct soldered parts. Then you add in the chips, programming some of them and cables. It is a definite time sink.

 

Mytekcontrols is trying to make it as easy as possible, extensive documenting on the board itself for some parts and using TH components, but you won't be doing this board in one setting. Plan to take your time, and do it in stages. Double and triple check each move before you make it. It's a small board with a lot of parts.

 

A Youtube series of assembly videos is planned as well.

[+mytek]

256K (Rambo) aliases the 64K of main memory to four of the banks like some actual expansions do. Don't use it unless you're either trying to explicitly test for that case or are just in a masochistic mood.

 

The hang at the end isn't a crash, it's the demo just sitting in a loop. From the source:

 

.proc start
	jsr init
	jsr spongy.init
	jsr spongy.effect
	jsr logo.init
	jmp *
	.endp

So is this loop causing normal OS house keeping chores like running POKEY's key scan counter from counting? Because that is certainly the affect when the demo ends.

 

The TK-II chip incorporated into the XEL design, syncs with POKEY's counter in order to know when a given key in the key matrix is being addressed, so that if the same key from the PS2 keyboard is pressed that a corresponding version can be mimicked in the Atari hardware. The TK-II also incorporates a watchdog timer into it's key send loop that if not tickled every 2 seconds will do a reset and re-intialization of the PS2 keyboard which has a visual indication of all 3 LED's on the keyboard briefly lighting up. If the Pokey counter stops counting, then after 2 seconds of being stuck looking for that counter to advance, the watchdog timer times out and the TK-II resets, thereby giving that visual indication of such on the keyboard. Long story short, at the end of the demo I was seeing repeated watchdog resets occur every 2 seconds meaning that Pokey had stopped counting.

 

I now have a fix for that in my latest firmware, where if it is determined that a stopped Pokey counter is the cause of the watchdog time out, a system reset is issued to bring the system back to life. This actually works quite well, and if the demo in question was being run from the Loader via a CF card, you are automatically sent back to the Loader screen following that system reset.

 

- Michael

[marty]

Michael, when you get a chance, could you post a list of parts needed to make a working XEL - aside from the board.

 

I'm looking to start gathering parts in anticipation of building one of these.

 

Also, would you recommend buying an old 800 or 800XL from eBay to harvest the various LSI's and proprietary ports from or just buying the parts from B&C?

 

Thanks!

[+mytek]

Michael, when you get a chance, could you post a list of parts needed to make a working XEL - aside from the board.

 

I'm looking to start gathering parts in anticipation of building one of these.

 

Also, would you recommend buying an old 800 or 800XL from eBay to harvest the various LSI's and proprietary ports from or just buying the parts from B&C?

 

Thanks!

 

Marty I'll be posting the BOM this coming Monday (got some last minute items to confirm).

 

I would highly recommend sourcing at least the CPU from BEST since I know for a fact the one he sells is solid and reliable, and this does seem to be the problem child when it comes to time and use (it runs pretty warm). Also I don't know if there is truly a problem, but with a recent build there were issues with an NCR version, so people may wish to avoid that one.

 

BEST

 

Problem Child

 

Of course if you can afford to buy all the chips as NOS that would be better to help insure a successful launch. As Dropcheck pointed out this is a very complex board build (180 components), so the more variables eliminated the more likely the outcome will be positive. But if you have any doubts about your ability to troubleshoot something of this nature, I would also suggest that you skip the DIY aspect and go with a pre-built board instead. I'm not trying to discourage you, but simply pointing out the reality of taking this on, and that you should be well prepared for the possibility that even the smallest error in assembly could bring this to a screeching halt with no idea as to why it isn't working.

 

- Michael

[marty]

I don't mind building an XEL myself, but I'd probably prefer buying one pre-built.

 

Just curious, is there anyone out there considering setting up shop selling prebuilt XEL's?

[Level42]

I think he will also be doing a bare board option, but I seriously caution anyone who thinks the assembly of this board will be easy. It is a big project, not something a weekend solder jockey should try. The part # count is over a 100 distinct soldered parts. Then you add in the chips, programming some of them and cables. It is a definite time sink.

 

 

But.......that is the whole idea !

 

Like building a model......the process is fun....and when it's finished you can be proud.....

 

No SMD so it's not that hard....hardest thing is picking the right value caps and resistors etc.....

[+mytek]

I don't mind building an XEL myself, but I'd probably prefer buying one pre-built.

 

Just curious, is there anyone out there considering setting up shop selling prebuilt XEL's?

MacRorie is going to be the point man on this aspect, and has been stocking up on parts leading up to my public release. We also got a generous donation of 50 NOS SIO connectors to enable at least the first 50 orders to get original connectivity to serial devices (and there are two people that I know have combined probably another 150+ more that might be willing to donate to the cause). So yes in some sense you could say a shop is getting set up to sell these guys.

 

- Michael

[Bikerbob]

Well I have decided that myself and my local Atari friend in crime, are going to build these.. gives us an excuse to get together to have some atari good times SO you have 2 orders for boards as soon as its ready to go. Talking with Stephen, he has put together a nice list of everything you can order in a batch from say Digikey, so will do that too most likely.

 

What about a bulk order, or a good source on the relan case and custom bezel - OR I guess maybe a sticky posting of source locations for all the bits.

 

 

James

Edited October 8, 2017 by Bikerbob

[+Stephen]

Well I have decided that myself and my local Atari friend in crime, are going to build these.. gives us an excuse to get together to have some atari good times SO you have 2 orders for boards as soon as its ready to go. Talking with Stephen, he has put together a nice list of everything you can order in a batch from say Digikey, so will do that too most likely.

 

What about a bulk order, or a good source on the relan case and custom bezel - OR I guess maybe a sticky posting of source locations for all the bits.

 

 

James

Hang tite for a few more days (weeks perhaps). We'll try to get something put together at least for the NE guys. It's a tedious build, but not terribly hard. It turned out, the only issue I had, was an incorrect chip in my PAL configuration. The assembly was all done properly.

 

Does it take time, yes. I would say, it's not like being able to do a brake job on your auto. It's like re-building the engine, transmission, chassis, body, and suspension all by hand. Worth it in the end.