The official lag thread!

[godslabrat]

Until a year or so ago, my attitude toward this was that some HDTVs handled the analog signals better than others, and it was worth the time to hunt down a set that did the conversion well. I've officially revised that policy. Today's manufacturers are putting so little effort into analog circuitry that it's a fool's errand to try and find one like that any more.

 

JUST BECAUSE THE TV HAS THE ANALOG PORTS DOESN'T MEAN IT CAN HANDLE ANALOG GAMES.

 

Let's face it, we're living in the era of HDMI gaming. Some of us are moving on to HDMI-only systems like RetroPie and Retron. Others are sticking with CRTs and analog cables. For those people like me, who are using vintage hardware on a modern set, we need to think in terms of HDMI.

 

Since the weakness is apparently the analog-digital conversion, that's where we need to focus our attention. "Game Modes" are all great, but it doesn't help you much if the lag has already occurred before the signal hits the screen. My plan is to get a Framemeister and use that from now on. Why? Because the conversion needs to occur somewhere, and if I know the Framemeister does extremely good conversion, then the conversion has become a known quantity, and a GOOD known quantity. So then the only variable is the TV itself.

 

Way easier to deal with one variable than two. That's why I'm going Framemeister. (though my current TV handles Analog pretty well, so the Framemeister purchase is getting put off until I get a new TV)

[phoenixdownita]

The reason I ended up buying a Framemeister was to actually handle a few PAL systems ... once I had it then I also stopped using SVideo and for the consoles that supported it I jumped onto RGB + XRGBmini .... and it works very well for the most part.

The XRGBmini does NOT handle well res changes, like 480i to 240p and viceversa like some Saturn games do ... so be warned there as it takes a few sec per each transition.
It handles component as well with a little less vibrant colors than it does RGB and it needs a "rare" Component to D5 adapter but I can attest that it works.

A nice concise guide is here:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER
(more info here http://arekuse.net/blog/?page_id=2034 )

So told before I had an XRGB I did Svideo modded all my consoles because my TV treated SVideo much, much, much better than composite (the opposite is true for other 2 TVs I have that seems to simply treat both of them the same way .... blurry and little crappy imho).

As it's been said before the XRGB mini is A solution, not THE solution as that has still to materialize imho.

Anyway important is this little nugget:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER#Sync_Mode

So you can set the Mini to either strict 60p which REQUIRES a framebuffer and shows some stutter (and a little more lag) as sometimes a frame needs be dropped/duplicated or you can set it to "pass thru" in which the lag is minimized by not requiring strict 60p on the output (no frames are dropped/duplicated in the stream) but then the TV decides if it likes that out of spec HDMI signal (none of mine did).

As a side note the Mini also deals with composite and SVideo "fixing" the mess of some analog outputs ... example my 7800 with SVideo mod (LH version I believe) does not really work well on the TV that I use for all other consoles (every 2 sec or so it loses sync via SVideo but it's fine but very blurry over composite) but via Mini it's all fine and dandy. So there's that too.

The Mini does support both PAL and PAL60 (not NTSC50 as that is not a thing, this is a note for people that like to put a 50/60hz switch on their consoles but don't use RGB out) and for PAL you can set it to output 1080p50 which is part of the HDMI std so it allows also PAL signals to be as stutter free as possible avoiding having to convert them to 60p. It also supports 720p50 but again my preferred TV does not, your mileage as to HDMI@50Hz support may vary depending on the TV you have.

Finally, sometimes with some consoles the Mini does struggle to sync .... I had to invest in a sync-stripper circuit that I installed directly into a Scart to JP21 converter so I can switch "native sync" and "sync-stripped sync" as needed.

Notable consoles that gave me issues were a Sega Master System NTSC (mostly on one game: OutRun go figure) and a NeoGeo AES NTSC .... with the sync-stripper inlined it all went away.
Note, I tested those 2 consoles with straight RGB to TV cables on a multisync Samsung 19" LCD and had the same issue which were solved once more by installing the same sync-stripper circuit in a small Scart F-M "extender" box .... this is so you know you may have to fidget a little. The Mini does have a Sync level option setting but for me it didn't quite work.... btw when the Mini loses sync it takes 4 or 5 sec to resync so it's bad if it happens as you are playing (Pulstar on my NeoGeo AES drove me nuts this way).

[gulps]

Hi! I see this great review about input lag, software emulator lag (Raspberry vs Windows 10) and monitor lag:

 

 

Retropie: An input lag investigation

https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/2019/an-input-lag-investigation

 

 

 

I tested a Retropie setup with raspberry pi2, LCD-TV and 240p test suite. This setups lags between 6-8 frames (about 100ms ~= 7*16ms) at Genesis core (60Hz).

Same setup with a real Genesis (JVC X'Eye) connected to a CRT-TV (60Hz) and 240p test suite never I get more than 1 frame lag. Always between 0 and 1 frame.

I have to test it with a HP IPS monitor and with a Nvidia Android TV.

Edited April 11, 2017 by gulps

[keepdreamin]

There is a bit of lag with RetroPie. I have no way to test it, but it does seem like a frame or two slower than using a Framemeister and real hardware on the same TV and

[Flojomojo]

I personally am sick of complaints about lag in emulators or wireless controllers that do not factor in the display type and how it's converted. I haven't experienced these problems, and I don't think it's because I'm blind to them -- just that I'm not using a lousy upscaler.

[gulps]

There is a bit of lag with RetroPie. I have no way to test it, but it does seem like a frame or two slower than using a Framemeister and real hardware on the same TV and

 

Yes. I tested a Wii connected (RGB) to the same LCD-TV (Sony Bravia) and the wireless gamepad Gamecube Wavebird with the Genesis Plus GX emulator and the lag was 2-3 frames. About 40ms (2f x 16ms ~= 32ms).

Maybe with a Gamecube wired gamepad will be less. I have to test.

The retropie test was done with a wired usb Play Sega (Saturn clone) gamepad.

[Austin]

 

I used to think along similar lines, since I never noticed any lag when playing with emulators and/or LCD displays. But when I did some testing with a few different input and output sources, it was amazing by what margin real hardware + CRT outperformed the other options, and how much better I played using a lag-free setup. There's a threshold that's below your conscious perception of lag, but that still has an effect on your play; you may think it's not affecting you, and the effect may be small, but I can attest that it's very real.

 

I'd be very curious to go back to the setup I used from 1999-2005 or so, with iNES on a Mac G3 and a CRT monitor, and see how much lag that had.

 

A train of thought I have had lately is that there are those who simply enjoy games, and then those who actually play games. You fall into the later category where you dive deep into the games you play, intentionally trying to finish them as much as humanly possible. People that play harder are the ones who are much more perceptible to things like input lag.

 

One of my favorite examples in recent years on this forum is mbd30, who originally thought Ninja Gaiden on the NES was impossible. When he finally switched from emulation to a real console on a CRT, he was able to finally defeat the game. He assumed there wouldn't be much a difference in lag, but realized and was very vocal about the real difference there after making the switch. I think more casual players are less perceptive of this sort of thing, and that's fine. But, there is a real difference.

[mbd30]

A train of thought I have had lately is that there are those who simply enjoy games, and then those who actually play games. You fall into the later category where you dive deep into the games you play, intentionally trying to finish them as much as humanly possible. People that play harder are the ones who are much more perceptible to things like input lag.

 

One of my favorite examples in recent years on this forum is mbd30, who originally thought Ninja Gaiden on the NES was impossible. When he finally switched from emulation to a real console on a CRT, he was able to finally defeat the game. He assumed there wouldn't be much a difference in lag, but realized and was very vocal about the real difference there after making the switch. I think more casual players are less perceptive of this sort of thing, and that's fine. But, there is a real difference.

I was able to beat the first two Ninja Gaiden games on an emulator. The third one I absolutely could not. I had to beat it on real hardware. The third is the most unforgiving.

[Tanooki]

I personally am sick of complaints about lag in emulators or wireless controllers that do not factor in the display type and how it's converted. I haven't experienced these problems, and I don't think it's because I'm blind to them -- just that I'm not using a lousy upscaler.

Well said. Tired of the lecture of that my tv somehow sucks despite it has no issue having an discernible issues side by side with a CRT for pre-HD level gaming. It's clearly not a myth, but trying to excuse yourself into expensive hardware to remove something that isn't perceptible is right in there with non racing amateur car types who piss hundreds or more on some part to get a .25% performance boost as most would just shake their head and go 'really?'

[keepdreamin]

Well said. Tired of the lecture of that my tv somehow sucks despite it has no issue having an discernible issues side by side with a CRT for pre-HD level gaming. It's clearly not a myth, but trying to excuse yourself into expensive hardware to remove something that isn't perceptible is right in there with non racing amateur car types who piss hundreds or more on some part to get a .25% performance boost as most would just shake their head and go 'really?'

 

You alluding to the Framemeister with that comment? I can assure you, adding a xrgb mini to your HDTV setup isn't simply like tossing in an aftermarket clamp on air filter. If not a bigger turbo, it's at least a stage 2: catless downpipe and ECU reflash

[Tanooki]

Yes I was going that route with it. Some people want it saying they know and feel it enhances the experience, others know or not and don't care because that boost would give them no perceived difference in capability for their every day use.

[keepdreamin]

Yes I was going that route with it. Some people want it saying they know and feel it enhances the experience, others know or not and don't care because that boost would give them no perceived difference in capability for their every day use.

 

Again, you don't actually own one. So your statements are baseless. Would you like some toast to go with that Jelly?

[Tanooki]

Jelly, hardly. I may not own one, but I've seen it in action. It seems like a waste of money so why would I be jealous of pissing money into a pot? I could easily fire back butthurt enough because not everyone wants one and sees things your way?

[keepdreamin]

Jelly, hardly. I may not own one, but I've seen it in action. It seems like a waste of money so why would I be jealous of pissing money into a pot? I could easily fire back butthurt enough because not everyone wants one and sees things your way?

It reads like you are trying to reassure yourself of that, more than volunteering an opinion.

 

Seen it in action, where, youtube? If you had owned one, or borrowed one for an extended period of time and come to this conclusion, maybe your cute little car performance analogy would gain traction. Having waited 3 years to purchase a Framemeister after its initial availability, and knowing full well how my setup performed before the addition, I know you're just flapping your gums.

 

Nah, you jelly.

[Jimjans]

It reads like you are trying to reassure yourself of that, more than volunteering an opinion.

 

Seen it in action, where, youtube? If you had owned one, or borrowed one for an extended period of time and come to this conclusion, maybe your cute little car performance analogy would gain traction. Having waited 3 years to purchase a Framemeister after its initial availability, and knowing full well how my setup performed before the addition, I know you're just flapping your gums.

 

Nah, you jelly.

If you like the framemeister you should try the OSSC faster transition between 240p and 480i and no input lag ...

[Jimjans]

Yes I was going that route with it. Some people want it saying they know and feel it enhances the experience, others know or not and don't care because that boost would give them no perceived difference in capability for their every day use.

Many new tv sets treat 240p as 480i and that is a fact and one reason you want to buy a scaler.

[Tanooki]

Look I know I'm not going to win against the framemeister gestapo in here so I'm going to back off this. I don't need to reassure myself of something I use on a daily basis without any hang ups. If you feel better thinking I do, that's fine, but going back and forward is pointless as clearly you don't care what I experience, and I really don't care you think I need an expensive piece of hardware to get the experience you think I need I'm already feeling. It's a wasted effort.

 

Grow up though, take that jelly and go pleasure yourself with it. I can't be jealous of something I don't care about in the least bit as that's just stupid.

[keepdreamin]

I don't care if you want or not, but you shouldn't make proclamations about something when you don't know what you're talking about. I think that's fair.

[mr_me]

Many new tv sets treat 240p as 480i and that is a fact and one reason you want to buy a scaler.

Which ones? Look here. http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/#list

 

Other options would be HDMI emulators and fpga systems.

[Jimjans]

Which ones? Look here. http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/#list

 

Other options would be HDMI emulators and fpga systems.

I have tested many brands that failed to show a real 240p picture LG , Samsung , Panasonic, Sony and Philips .

 

And in most cases there are big lag on the analog inputs.

 

There are no fpga systems for snes neo geo yet and emulators introduce to much lag.

Have a Analouge mini for some 8bit systems and it working great.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Jimjans

[toptenmaterial]

Is Framemeister a magic bullet for lag, in combination with decent settings?

[keepdreamin]

Is Framemeister a magic bullet for lag, in combination with decent settings?

 

You already asked this, and I answered. read post 14.

[Jimjans]

Is Framemeister a magic bullet for lag, in combination with decent settings?

Better with ossc cheaper and have zero lag https://www.videogameperfection.com/2016/07/08/source-converter-verdict/

[keepdreamin]

Better with ossc cheaper and have zero lag https://www.videogameperfection.com/2016/07/08/source-converter-verdict/

 

yes the OSSC is fast, but it isn't an upscaler, it's a line doubler. there's no frame buffer, no integrated audio over HDMI and deinterlacing is rudimentary. No framebuffer means any systems with odd refresh (snes) are going to pass that on to your tv. So you're rolling the dice that your tv will be happy with the signal. The framemeister will take any off spec refresh and output a bog standard HDMI compatible signal.

[phoenixdownita]

 

yes the OSSC is fast, but it isn't an upscaler, it's a line doubler. there's no frame buffer, no integrated audio over HDMI and deinterlacing is rudimentary. No framebuffer means any systems with odd refresh (snes) are going to pass that on to your tv. So you're rolling the dice that your tv will be happy with the signal. The framemeister will take any off spec refresh and output a bog standard HDMI compatible signal.

Have you tried both sync modes for the Mini?

In my setup any out of spec HDMI makes the TV lose sync so I can't really see if, by any chance, the other mode has less lag.

I mean the Sync_Mode setting AUTO/OFF .... I need to set it to OFF to force 60Hz (or 50Hz for PAL) but I get some judder.

If it works for you in both modes maybe you can do a lag test, the AUTO mode is supposed to be slightly faster.

 

BTW nice reference to stutter is here:

https://www.videogameperfection.com/2012/06/22/what-causes-games-to-stutter/

also talking about when 60Hz is not really 60Hz.