flashjazzcat Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Re: the SD-CF adapter, here's the video I made late last year: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rpe612hezyl9j9g/XEL-CF%20DMA%20Movie%20Player%20on%20SD-CF%20adapter.mp4?dl=0 Originally I'd uploaded it to YouTube, but the copyright strike it attracted was sufficiently tiresome that I took the video down. I'll leave this up for a couple of days. The interesting take-away from the video is that the choice of SD card is as important as the choice of CF card is turning out to be... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 that behavior reminds me of the pull up resister needing to be implemented on the early ultimate cart and the sio 2 sd early versions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 You may get the odd SD card which doesn't work with the DMA video player, but out of a slew of them that I've tested with the CF adapter today using a new read testing tool, all worked. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 So I'm having some issues with the XEL-CF-][ that I've just installed into my brand-spanking-new 1088XEL. Basically I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be able to use the CF card as a drive or drives... If I just turn on the computer, I get: Ultimate XEL-CF PBI v.1.9, dev. 0 Ultimate clock installed Spartados X 4.49© 5-11-2017 Copyright © 2017 by FTE & DLT D5: All well and good Typing 'DIR', though, gets me 138 Device does not respond Ok, perhaps I need to FDISK this thing... running FDISK and doing anything, even initialise, gives me No APT devices found [ok] What is confusing is that if I use the XEL Loader, it sees and can read the CF card (it's an old 16 GB card that I used to use for photos in my camera, these days I use an iPhone instead). The XEL loader can see the DCIM directory, and the CANON one inside it. On the PBI Bios and Hard disk page in the BIOS, I have the PBI BIOS enabled, the device id set to 0, the hard disk enabled, and the boot drive set to D5: Everything underneath that is disabled. I tried setting the slave device, but that didn't help so I reset it back to disabled. On the MPBI device control page, I have Device 2 (M1:) disabled (I'm not sure what this is, but enabling it doesn't help so I left it disabled). So what am I missing - do I just have a bad card (although it's not given me any problems elsewhere for, well, forever, and then I'd expect the XEL loader to fail too) ? Do I have to repartition the card to have spare space on it for the FDISK program to find ? Thanks in advance for any help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Your card might well be incompatible. So far, most people have had the most luck with Sandisk cards but even then, some have issues. For instance, I have a relatively new 8GB Sandisk Ultra (silver label) that works great with mine, while an older 512MB black-label Sandisk Ultra doesn't work, though that card works great with my SIDE2 cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbelcher Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 So I'm having some issues with the XEL-CF-][ that I've just installed into my brand-spanking-new 1088XEL. Basically I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be able to use the CF card as a drive or drives... If I just turn on the computer, I get: All well and good Typing 'DIR', though, gets me Ok, perhaps I need to FDISK this thing... running FDISK and doing anything, even initialise, gives me What is confusing is that if I use the XEL Loader, it sees and can read the CF card (it's an old 16 GB card that I used to use for photos in my camera, these days I use an iPhone instead). The XEL loader can see the DCIM directory, and the CANON one inside it. On the PBI Bios and Hard disk page in the BIOS, I have the PBI BIOS enabled, the device id set to 0, the hard disk enabled, and the boot drive set to D5: Everything underneath that is disabled. I tried setting the slave device, but that didn't help so I reset it back to disabled. On the MPBI device control page, I have Device 2 (M1:) disabled (I'm not sure what this is, but enabling it doesn't help so I left it disabled). So what am I missing - do I just have a bad card (although it's not given me any problems elsewhere for, well, forever, and then I'd expect the XEL loader to fail too) ? Do I have to repartition the card to have spare space on it for the FDISK program to find ? Thanks in advance for any help Hey! That sounds a lot like the behavior I reported earlier in the thread... Try setting the jumper on the CF adapter board to slave mode, then turn slave mode on in the U1MB setup AND in the loader. Reboot Do they see the drive as slave now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 There's only one jumper, and moving it from pins 2-3 to pins 1-2 jumped didn't make any difference - I still can't see the device as an APT, no matter what 'slave' is set to in the BIOS. XEL loader says it's a FAT32 partition of 16GB (which seems reasonable, given the previous usage). I'm still not sure if I have to partition it outside of the XL and set up a 1GB partition for the XL and a 15GB one for XEL loader ? ---- Ah - I didn't see you said to set something in the loader as well. I'll try that. I did notice that the CF card reader got a red led switched on when the jumper was in the 1-2 (ie: not as shipped) position. I'm about to have dinner, so I'll give it a go once the kid has gone to bed Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 There's only one jumper, and moving it from pins 2-3 to pins 1-2 jumped didn't make any difference - I still can't see the device as an APT, no matter what 'slave' is set to in the BIOS. XEL loader says it's a FAT32 partition of 16GB (which seems reasonable, given the previous usage). I'm still not sure if I have to partition it outside of the XL and set up a 1GB partition for the XL and a 15GB one for XEL loader ? ---- Ah - I didn't see you said to set something in the loader as well. I'll try that. I did notice that the CF card reader got a red led switched on when the jumper was in the 1-2 (ie: not as shipped) position. I'm about to have dinner, so I'll give it a go once the kid has gone to bed Thanks FDISK should recognize the card and the existing partition(s) on it, and give you the option to reallocate the space. You still haven't mentioned the brand/specs of the card you're using. I think it's a basic card compatibility issue as discussed upthread and in the 1088XEL Builders' Thread a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 FDISK should recognize the card and the existing partition(s) on it, and give you the option to reallocate the space. You still haven't mentioned the brand/specs of the card you're using. I think it's a basic card compatibility issue as discussed upthread and in the 1088XEL Builders' Thread a few times. It certainly could be - it's not a sandisk card and I'll order one this evening from Amazon to rule that out. I'm just a little surprised that Spartados can't access it, when the XEL loader can. Presumably that's a software issue then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 It certainly could be - it's not a sandisk card and I'll order one this evening from Amazon to rule that out. I'm just a little surprised that Spartados can't access it, when the XEL loader can. Presumably that's a software issue then. Not necessarily a software issue; more like, a "CF card manufacturers changing the specs" issue. See Michael's video for more examples: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Not necessarily a software issue; more like, a "CF card manufacturers changing the specs" issue. See Michael's video for more examples: I'm totally willing to believe that there are differences between manufacturers, and it's entirely possible the XEL-CF-2 is somewhat pushing the envelope of what is acceptable to all cards and that only some card manufacturers are within that cross-section. However, it seems odd to me that the same hardware, running different programs, can either see or not see the same card depending on which program is running. The XEL loader has no problems, ever, accessing the FAT32 partition and scanning through directory hierarchies. FDISK can't even find the device. I'm not sure how "different manufacturers" can explain that unless I'm missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 I discovered that a brand new SanDisk 16GB 50 MB/s card would sometimes work, and then sometimes not. I always knew there would be cards that wouldn't work, even when from the same manufacturer, but having it work sometimes and then sometimes not was really a surprise to me. Anyway I've been diligently working the problem as well as searching the internet for answers, and I finally think I have a solution for cards that are sporadic in nature. However the bad news is that it requires way too many changes to simply mod the existing boards, so expect a new version to appear in the very near future and it will bring the Swap Button feature with it. As for the existing boards, they still work but just require being a bit picky about the media that is used. This is the same old original MyIDE problem rearing it's head, which was later solved in the MyIDE II products put out by AtariMax. Even the SIDE2 carts can be a bit finicky about what media will work. And interestingly enough as I did my searching for answers on the net, I came across similar problems being reported for the ST, the Amiga, and a few other retro computer systems. It's just another case of a standard not really being a standard, and variances in timing between manufacturers and even in a different versions under the same brand name. But yes if you throw enough chips or a good CPLD core at the problem, you'll get close to that 90+% compatibility that PC's enjoy. I simply don't have the knowledge, skills, or the time to do that myself. So it is what it is for the moment, but I'm sure as time rolls on a good list of compatible cards will surface. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Michael, Please, please, don't take *anything* I have written above to be criticism in any way, shape or form. I have a new 1088XEL on my workbench, courtesy of you, MacRorie, FlashJazzCat and others. I couldn't be happier with the end product. I'm from Northern England, and can be characteristically blunt when describing things not working perfectly, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the countless hours of hard work by a lot of people, not least of which your good self, in getting me to this point where I can metaphorically point at the Mars Rover and say "the colour's not right"... I've ordered a slower (30 MB/sec, couldn't find any 25 ones) Sandisk CF card, as well as me of those CF to SD adapters. They ought to arrive tomorrow so we'll see then... Thanks again for all the hard work, Simon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I rather think if the card works in the loader as well as described it should have no problem being recognised by the PBI BIOS. Does the loader list ATR files? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Please, please, don't take *anything* I have written above to be criticism in any way, shape or form. I have a new 1088XEL on my workbench, courtesy of you, MacRorie, FlashJazzCat and others. I couldn't be happier with the end product. Simon you need not worry about me taking it the wrong way, as I was simply explaining where the situation was at present, and where I'm hoping to take it to . It's just one of those things that slipped through the crack, and wasn't caught or noticed until way later. Only recently have I been trying out newer cards, and discovering that there were problems even within the SanDisk series which I had come to think of as being very solid. The good news is that a simpler, and better design is emerging that will at least allow the newer SandIsk 16GB 50 MB/s Ultra series to work reliably. What really makes this interesting, is that those are readily available and currently sold by Best Buy and others, are brand new, and not NOS. Also the price is right at around $17. When this project began the main focus was on the 1088XEL. So a lot of time an effort by myself and the people listed on the board's silkscreen was invested to get that board as right as it could possibly be before MacRorie took the reins in the production and sales aspect, making it possible for others to enjoy the outcome of our endeavors. Unfortunately the XEL-CF came towards the end of that process, and thereby didn't benefit from all the attention paid to the board it was meant to plug into and enhance. Well there was one guy that put in an unbelievable effort to make the PBI especially well featured, and that would be Flashjazzcat. I tried my best to test out each iteration of what he was creating, but sadly I'm not enough of a user to really put it through it's paces properly. That's where all of you guys will get your chance to participate in the development process, by testing the s_it out of this stuff in everyday use, and then giving feedback on any remaining issues that need to be addressed. Anyway the new CF boards will be even smaller, so less cost, and more room for Rapidus (this should support the 2-piece version of such very well). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Well, there was never any question over basic communication protocols in the beta versions, so the matter remains puzzling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Well, there was never any question over basic communication protocols in the beta versions, so the matter remains puzzling. When you have a good card, it's very reliable from a communications standpoint. Not so puzzling when you consider that the 'standard' was evolving over the first few years, including changes in the IDE protocol to get ever faster speeds even with hard drives. It kinda reminds me of how CSS and HTML used in webdesign also evolved, sometimes even breaking sites based on the early versions. But there is a way to obtain a more wide ranging compatibility, since most of it appears to be due to timing differences, and not a change in the actual data being passed back and forth. Just like in the video world, buffering and time base correction can be applied so that the end result always looks the same no matter the source. But that requires a lot more development effort (and more cost) to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Yes but the card in question is said to work in the loader and not with the driver. Since the driver is more "forgiving" than the loader, I would expect a hardware issue to present exactly the opposite situation. Since all components use the same ATA protocol, non-compliance in the media would result in nothing working at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I rather think if the card works in the loader as well as described it should have no problem being recognised by the PBI BIOS. Does the loader list ATR files? There aren't actually any on the card - I thought it had some photos on it, but they're not showing up (I haven't verified in the Mac whether they're there or not). If only .atr / .xel files are listed, that might make sense, or perhaps I'm just mis-remembering. I was just trying to see if I could format it and use it within Spartados The XEL-Loader screen does find the top-level DCIM/ directory though, and I can go into that directory and see the CANON180/ directory within it. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Yes but the card in question is said to work in the loader and not with the driver. Since the driver is more "forgiving" than the loader, I would expect a hardware issue to present exactly the opposite situation. Since all components use the same ATA protocol, non-compliance in the media would result in nothing working at all. Aww forgive me. So when you said "puzzling" in a previous post you were referring to Spaced Cowboy's dilemma, and not to the recent issues with 'other' cards not working that MacRorie and I have been encountering. There aren't actually any on the card - I thought it had some photos on it, but they're not showing up (I haven't verified in the Mac whether they're there or not). If only .atr / .xel files are listed, that might make sense, or perhaps I'm just mis-remembering. I was just trying to see if I could format it and use it within Spartados The XEL-Loader screen does find the top-level DCIM/ directory though, and I can go into that directory and see the CANON180/ directory within it. Yes not all files will be viewable from within the Loader, especially ones with non-native extensions such as .rmt for music files, or as you've already seen image files (.jpg, .gif, ect). Edit: Just to be crystal clear. Not displaying within the Loader doesn't mean they are not accessible by the application launched from the Loader. So for instance, I can put RMTPLAY.COM in the same folder as a bunch of .rmt music files, having only the player be visible. But when I run the player, it's own built-in directory will pick up all of the music files in that same folder and be selectable and playable from within the app. Just to show you what I'm talking about, here is a zip file containing several folders, each of which has a player app and a selection of songs. Just copy all of the zipped file's content over to the FAT32 of the CF card and then give it a test drive. Music Samples.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 So when you said "puzzling" in a previous post you were referring to Spaced Cowboy's dilemma, and not to the recent issues with 'other' cards not working that MacRorie and I have been encountering. Yeah: exactly. Sorry for any confusion. Yes not all files will be viewable from within the Loader, especially ones with non-native extensions such as .rmt for music files, or as you've already seen image files (.jpg, .gif, ect). The complete list of compatible extensions is: XEX COM EXE BAS ROM MAP ATR The last two (MAP and ATR) will only appear if the PBI HDD is activated. But when I run the player, it's own built-in directory will pick up all of the music files in that same folder and be selectable and playable from within the app. Precisely, providing "FMS" is enabled in the loader's options menu. If only .atr / .xel files are listed, that might make sense, or perhaps I'm just mis-remembering. I was just trying to see if I could format it and use it within Spartados The reason I asked if ATR files were visible is for the reason given above: that their appearance would signify that the PBI HDD driver is at least present and functional. If you copy some ATR files to the card and then open the folder in the loader, it could be illuminating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Spaced Cowboy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Yeah: exactly. Sorry for any confusion. The complete list of compatible extensions is: XEX COM EXE BAS ROM MAP ATR The last two (MAP and ATR) will only appear if the PBI HDD is activated. Precisely, providing "FMS" is enabled in the loader's options menu. The reason I asked if ATR files were visible is for the reason given above: that their appearance would signify that the PBI HDD driver is at least present and functional. If you copy some ATR files to the card and then open the folder in the loader, it could be illuminating. I will do when I get home tonight. I have an early start (7am in work) to beat the Silicon Valley commute. On the plus side, I get to leave before 3:00 so there's a decent chunk of the day left when I get home 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Quicker test, in fact. If everything in the "Logical drives" menu is dimmed, the PBI BIOS is disabled or somehow unresponsive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 I just discovered this SanDisk Store run by Digital River that has some very attractive pricing on the 30 MB/s Ultra CF cards. So I placed an order for all 3 sizes, and will be running tests to see if they are compatible. Assuming that I actually do receive them (fingers crossed), and discover that they do work, I'll be sure to post an update. BTW, if someone else attempts to purchase some of these, don't click on the PayPal button, but instead use the Check Out button. From there you will be able to enter your details and select PayPal as your purchase preference or a credit card. Note: The landing page is not secured, but the cart is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 BTW, here's some very good information that anyone contemplating buying CF cards off of eBay should check out: FAKE SanDisk Extreme Compact Flash Cards Exposed It details a lot of very good ways to detect the differences, and isn't limited to just the Extreme series cards. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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