CollectorVision Phoenix Game Console

[retroillucid]

Ferraris are also a big f joke, still I don’t have one... because I can’t pay for it... unfortunately you just can’t have anything we want in life

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

LOL

 

Don't make me cry

 

Comparing a Ferrari to the SGM ......

Edited May 28, 2018 by retroillucid

[HDTV1080P]

If someone where to make a professional ColecoVision/ADAM 64 bit Windows Emulator that was compatible with the sound chip used in the SGM (Like the free Stella 64 bit for the Atari 2600), and if they charged $20 for the software, then would OPCODE games want to be paid a certain amount for each program that is purchased since it emulates a sound chip that is used in the OPCODE SGM?

 

This is just like when ATARI sued Coleco, because Coleco made a Expansion Module #1 Atari 2600 adapter for the ColecoVision back in 1982. The Expansion Module #1 hardware design was Coleco’s design but ATARI did not like it. ATARI and Coleco ended up making some type of agreement and Coleco still manufactured the Expansion module #1 Atari 2600 adapter up until Jan of 1985.

There is always going to be dedicated ColecoVision/ADAM owners that well never upgrade their original 1982-1985 ColecoVision and they are the ones that well continue to purchase a SGM from OPCODE games. Most people playing ColecoVision games with SGM support in 2018 are using a desktop PC or portable device.

Edited May 28, 2018 by HDTV1080P

[opcode]

Everybody please cool down and come back when you are ready to negotiate. pretty sure we can get to an agreement, unless you want it for free. And considering all the drama, you must really want SGM compatibility, like badly. Maybe it is a selling point. And yet I deserve nothing...

[JBerel]

Well, just for sport, I'll drop a few more observations and one broad hunch. I won't explain the way I arrived at any of this except to say I've dealt in similar spaces a lot.

 

1. Maybe $7.50 per unit would be an appropriate price point to incorporate a software or hardware version of the functionality of the SGM in the Collectorvision with the hatchet buried and community members at peace that folks are working together or at least coordinating efforts.

 

2. Anybody selling anything they make is in the commercial space, so it's not fair to say one product for sale has some moral authority over another.

 

3. A duplication (in software or hardware) of the functionality of the SGM would appear to be very possible since there seems to be no unique intellectual property in it. The value is in it's assembly and manufacture. (Also in it's contribution to the hobby by a respected contributor) The very delivery of a hardware device that can plug into a Colecovision to add additional functionality is valuable just like a boom box is valuable so you don't have to tape together a home stereo and a 12V battery with a handle. It doesn't change the fact that they're common components.

 

4. The very act of the squabbling and discontent by notable contributors to the field diminishes any real value all these things offer. We're really walking a fine line between keeping a legacy platform alive and simply emulating an old set of components in a combination of hardware and software. All of this is just pointing out that Collectorvision or Prometheus are shaping up to be little more than overly complex ways to accomplish the same end result as a decent emulation rig. You guys better be careful or you'll be in direct competition with Ataribox (AtariVCS), and then where will you be.

 

5. You're both operating in a rather small environment that's been pissed all over by the likes of Chameleon, Ouya, Ataribox, zombie Coleco brand squatter douche bags, etc., etc., etc. None of this really amounts to anything worth the drama until somebody can put up an actual functioning product that can be purchased. Until then it's all just a fart in the wind honestly.

[Bmack36]

Last thing before you leave: Can you describe what specifically we would be getting with a license if we wanted it?

[retroillucid]

Everybody please cool down and come back when you are ready to negotiate. pretty sure we can get to an agreement, unless you want it for free. And considering all the drama, you must really want SGM compatibility, like badly. Maybe it is a selling point. And yet I deserve nothing...

 

I'll be honest, I don't care that much for the SGM

I can already make great games without it anyway

But, seems like most people would like to have it built-in with our console

 

We always been working together, heck CollectorVision is providing you cartridge shells

Always been friendly to each others and I even took your side when the Juice's box happened

I took your side because the guy was doing a physical module, just like yours

 

 

 

[Pixelboy]

Seems like you know more than me on how CollectorVision is working....

 

$20 per unit sold is not what I call a friendly liscence

I'm calling this: You want it, pay or go fuck yourself

 

Anyway..... keep saying shit about us to try to make us look bad.....just like you always did when things doesn't work your way

Wooooh! Stop it right there! Allow me to slam the brakes here.

 

20 bucks... per unit...? Just so you can add SGM support in a "peaceful" manner to your FPGA console? That's it...?

 

I don't really want to take Eduardo's side on this, given our recent falling out, but I really must. I simply don't see the problem in asking your customers to pay an extra 20 bucks just so they can play their SGM carts on your system, with HDMI output and the modern ColecoVision controller you're currently working on. I'm sure they'll gladly pay it if it helps to maintain peace among the main actors of this small homebrew community.

 

Also, I find your argument about how Eduardo doesn't actually "own" any part of the SGM to be rather weak. He put a lot of work into it, beginning with porting several MSX games for Team Pixelboy to help finance the development of the SGM, and then he developed multiple revisions of the main circuit board until the unit worked perfectly. That alone is expensive. And then he had a big metal mold manufactured so that he could produce the SGM's custom casing. And he also put a lot of effort into the box, and the SGM's label, and the manual, and even the God damn styrofoam that protects the unit inside the box. He had to buy the female edge connectors as a custom order because they can't be found in great enough quantities, and he assembled (and tested, I presume) every single SGM unit before shipping it. All you had to do as the final customer was to buy it, plug it into your ColecoVision and enjoy games that never should have existed on that console. Really, how much work did you put into all that, J-F? What was your contribution aside from releasing some SGM games under the CollectorVision label?

 

My point is that this licensing deal should not be perceived as a legal thing, it should rather be seen as a simple gesture of respect towards the guy who made it all happen. You won't be the one paying the extra 20$, your customers will. Think of it as something like a Patreon contribution, where people can pledge their thanks to Eduardo for a job well done (well, there were a lot of delays and problems along the way, but I think we can all agree that the end product was worth it).

 

If it was me developing this FPGA console, I'd accept that licensing deal without giving it a second thought. I mean, let's face it, you're not going to sell your FPGA console for anything less than 200$US, especially if you include a brand new modern controller into the package. What's the big deal about adding 20 bucks to that price? If if was something like 50$, I'd probably say no, but 20$? Oh no-no-no! They're asking for 240$US instead of 220$US! THAT'S WAY TOO EXPENSIVE! I'm not buying this console at that outrageous price!!"

 

I can't claim to know the financial setup of your project, but there's only one SGM, and there's already a relatively impressive number of SGM-dependent games available, so adding SGM support to your FPGA console is not exactly insignificant. And all that money that you would be giving to Eduardo will probably go into his Prometheus project, so it's really an investment into another console. And even if he didn't invest that money into the Prometheus, who cares?

 

Oh, and by the way, perhaps you haven't realized this yet, but that custom modern controller you're working on, perhaps it could be used on the Prometheus as well. So if this Prometheus console is ever released, you could produce and sell extra copies of your controller, which will likely help to increase your profit margin beyond covering your R&D expenses. I'm not saying Eduardo would necessarily agree to that (perhaps he's working on a controller of his own design) but the point I'm trying to make is that good things can happen when you accept playing ball with the other team.

[JBerel]

So before this is all a footnote, I'd suggest you guys agree that there is some value in the SGM's contribution to the hobby, and while perhaps not legally required or technically necessary, it would be good form to provide some monetary acknowledgement to continue a good working relationship going forward for the benefit of game devs, potential customers, the hobby itself and in the interest of karma. I already proposed a monetary sum that takes all the into account. You're both at the I want it my way phase and you're shooting yourselves in the ass over it.

[opcode]

See, we can be reasonable, I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Let's call it a night and continue in private tomorrow, how about that. JBerel made some good points. As for Brian's question, you get the right to use/emulate it with Opcode support/blessing (which I believe is good PR), and the right to use the logo in the box, which I believe is a good selling point. Everybody is happy and can move on now, nothing to see here...

[retroillucid]

J-F? What was your contribution aside from releasing some SGM games under the CollectorVision label?

 

 

Ok, so you're saying that didn't do anything or contribute to this community? wow

Maybe I should just leave this forum for good and put my efforts and time to something else

Thanks Luc

 

I see why you're on Eduardo's side since you have already worked closely with him

 

 

I'm all in to pay a liscence, but for $20 and this attitude, it won't happen

[retroillucid]

FUCK THIS

[opcode]

Wooooh! Stop it right there! Allow me to slam the brakes here.

 

20 bucks... per unit...? Just so you can add SGM support in a "peaceful" manner to your FPGA console? That's it...?

 

I don't really want to take Eduardo's side on this, given our recent falling out, but I really must. I simply don't see the problem in asking your customers to pay an extra 20 bucks just so they can play their SGM carts on your system, with HDMI output and the modern ColecoVision controller you're currently working on. I'm sure they'll gladly pay it if it helps to maintain peace among the main actors of this small homebrew community.

 

Also, I find your argument about how Eduardo doesn't actually "own" any part of the SGM to be rather weak. He put a lot of work into it, beginning with porting several MSX games for Team Pixelboy to help finance the development of the SGM, and then he developed multiple revisions of the main circuit board until the unit worked perfectly. That alone is expensive. And then he had a big metal mold manufactured so that he could produce the SGM's custom casing. And he also put a lot of effort into the box, and the SGM's label, and the manual, and even the God damn styrofoam that protects the unit inside the box. He had to buy the female edge connectors as a custom order because they can't be found in great enough quantities, and he assembled (and tested, I presume) every single SGM unit before shipping it. All you had to do as the final customer was to buy it, plug it into your ColecoVision and enjoy games that never should have existed on that console. Really, how much work did you put into all that, J-F? What was your contribution aside from releasing some SGM games under the CollectorVision label?

 

My point is that this licensing deal should not be perceived as a legal thing, it should rather be seen as a simple gesture of respect towards the guy who made it all happen. You won't be the one paying the extra 20$, your customers will. Think of it as something like a Patreon contribution, where people can pledge their thanks to Eduardo for a job well done (well, there were a lot of delays and problems along the way, but I think we can all agree that the end product was worth it).

 

If it was me developing this FPGA console, I'd accept that licensing deal without giving it a second thought. I mean, let's face it, you're not going to sell your FPGA console for anything less than 200$US, especially if you include a brand new modern controller into the package. What's the big deal about adding 20 bucks to that price? If if was something like 50$, I'd probably say no, but 20$? Oh no-no-no! They're asking for 240$US instead of 220$US! THAT'S WAY TOO EXPENSIVE! I'm not buying this console at that outrageous price!!"

 

I can't claim to know the financial setup of your project, but there's only one SGM, and there's already a relatively impressive number of SGM-dependent games available, so adding SGM support to your FPGA console is not exactly insignificant. And all that money that you will be giving to Eduardo will probably go into his Prometheus project, so it's really an investment into another console. And even if he didn't invest that money into the Prometheus, who cares?

 

Oh, and by the way, perhaps you haven't realized this yet, but that custom modern controller you're working on, perhaps it could be used on the Prometheus as well. So if this Prometheus console is ever released, you could produce and sell extra copies of your controller, which will likely help to increase your profit margin beyond covering your R&D expenses. I'm not saying Eduardo would necessarily agree to that (perhaps he's working on a controller of his own design) but the point I'm trying to make is that good things can happen when you accept playing ball with the other team.

 

Absurd, we don't have fallouts in this community! Never! We have kind of amicable disagreements mostly involving ego and occasionally a bit of envy, but that is generally indicative of admiration that can't be publicly exposed so we can still look superior, and sometimes that is misinterpreted as drama. <pass Luc some cash under the table>

Now if you guys excuse me, I will leave and expend the rest of the night with my beautiful 27yo wife.

[JBerel]

Ok...I've officially lost interest in Collectorvision. Bye all.

Signing off.

[Pixelboy]

Ok, so you're saying that didn't do anything or contribute to this community? wow

Maybe I should just leave this forum for good and put my efforts and time to something else

Thanks Luc

 

I see why you're on Eduardo's side since you have already worked closely with him

I was talking specifically about your contribution to the SGM's research and development, J-F, not your contribution to the CV community as a whole.

 

 

Absurd, we don't have fallouts in this community! Never! We have kind of amicable disagreements mostly involving ego and occasionally a bit of envy, but that is generally indicative of admiration that can't be publicly exposed so we can still look superior, and sometimes that is misinterpreted as drama. <pass Luc some cash under the table>

Now if you guys excuse me, I will leave and expend the rest of the night with my beautiful 27yo wife.

Don't interpret my intervention as a gesture of good will, Eduardo. I'm still fuckin' pissed at you. I'm just voicing my opinion on this manner, as an impartial third party, and I'm not going to contribute anything else to this thread beyond this post.

[Bmack36]

Let me just throw out an example.

 

A deli/restaurant (opcode) comes up with an idea to take a something they didn't create like peanut butter (adam memory expansion) and add something else they didn't create (MSX sound chip) and put them together into a new medium (a sandwich) assuming no one had done that before. Should they be commended and have customers go to them to support them for coming up with something new: absolutely. Does that mean that any other resaurant that wants to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches should have to pay a license to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches to sell to their customers: not really.

 

Let me just say this: Eduardo is a great member of this community and has contributed a lot to the colecovision. Do I think he deserves praise and support for all he does: absolutely? Do I support him in the stuff he has done: absolutely as I have bought every color line game, Penguin Adventure, and several SGMs. I even donated a F18a system to Eduardo so that he would have the ability to add functionality and test with it to improve his games.

 

Do I think he deserves $20 per unit for something he has had no input and actually abandoned support for, no.

 

If someone wants to setup a go fund me or something for Eduardo to show their support for him I am perfectly fine with that, but it shouldn't have any bearing on this system.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Bmack36

[retroillucid]

I should not have said: Fu%? this

I sincerely applogies for this, it shows me that I may be too much ''angry'' at this moment

 

So, I'm going to take the night to think and will contact Eduardo tomorrow

[opcode]

Don't interpret my intervention as a gesture of good will, Eduardo. I'm still fuckin' pissed at you. I'm just voicing my opinion on this manner, as an impartial third party, and I'm not going to contribute anything else to this thread beyond this post.

I am also still pretty pissed at you. <put money back in my pocket>

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HDTV1080P]

It would be more professional for OPCODE Games and ColelctorVision to have a private meeting about possible licensing the SGM technology in the new CollectorVision game system.

 

I would be really interested if the Prometheus BIOS was officially licensed and emulated by the CollectorVision game system. Since it appears the Prometheus game system does not work with any of the original Coleco expansion modules, I cannot see any real advantage of making a separate videogame system. If CollectorVision was interested (not sure if they are). It would make logical sense to have one next generation video game system. CollectorVision could make the hardware and OPCODE Games could release a Prometheus BIOS firmware update for the CollectorVision game system. Or perhaps CollectorVision comes out with a ColecoVision II BIOS by themselves and sales 5,000+ systems to Walmart, Amazon, and other retail outlets.

 

This CollecorVision game system might be extremely popular, and that is one reason why OPCODE games might want to be officially involved in some way.

Edited May 29, 2018 by HDTV1080P

[insertclevernamehere]

I'm confused on software compatibility. What I do know is, that any future homebrews developed for the Colecovision would work on both new consoles due to both being backward compatible and because the Opcode system is more sophisticated, homebrews specifically developed for that and also the SGM would not work on the Collectorvision. The assumption I made and perhaps incorrectly, is that there would not be homebrews specifically developed for the Collectorvision that would not work on the Opcode system but judging from some comments here, that might be the case. Can you clarify? If so, the Colecovision homebrew scene is going to get very confusing.

Edited May 29, 2018 by insertclevernamehere

[NIAD]

Hmm... a proposed $20 licensing fee to allow support for the SGM out of the box for the CollectorVision system equates to:

 

- 10% of the ideal price point of $200 that CollectorVision has mentioned in the past. I would venture a guess that 10% is pretty damn high for licensing rights compared to most licensing fee arrangements.

 

- an SGM bought new costs $90, so a licensing rights fee of $20 per CollectorVision console sold equates to 22.2% of what a real Opcode SGM costs.

 

- as Pixelboy suggest, pass on the $20 licensing fee to the purchaser. Um, thanks but no thanks Pixelboy, $200 is already a pretty hefty price to have to pay in my honest opinion.

 

Honestly, if I was CollectorVision, I would say thanks, but no thanks to SGM licensing at that cost per unit sold.

 

I have, in the past, financed the PORTing of games from MSX to CV format to Opcode for CollectorVision and from ADAM to CV format to Mystery Man for Team Pixelboy and I have to say that that part of the development of a game release seems pretty damn profitable for a 32K or smaller game and possibly for a 128-256K game. What you choose to do with your payment for game porting is, of course, your own business and if it's to the further benefit of the ColecoVision Community, I commend you.

 

Anyway, stuff like this needs to be kept behind closed doors, so just PM each other of better yet, call and talk seeing as there is just too much emailing, texting, tweeting, etc. this days which usually confuses and inflames the situation compared to actual spoken conversation. Shit, go old school, pick up a phone, preferrably a rotary and make a call.

[HDTV1080P]

I'm confused on software compatibility. What I do know is, that any future homebrews developed for the Colecovision would work on both new consoles due to both being backward compatible and because the Opcode system is more sophisticated, homebrews specifically developed for that and also the SGM would not work on the Collectorvision. The assumption I made and perhaps incorrectly, is that there would not be homebrews specifically developed for the Collectorvision that would not work on the Opcode system but judging from some comments here, that might be the case. Can you clarify? If so, the Colecovision homebrew scene is going to get very confusing.

Both the CollectorVision game system and OPCODE’s Prometheus game system in theory well be 100% compatible with all existing ColecoVision cartridges (possible free firmware updates to make 100% compatibly a reality). The CollectorVision game system well also run all OPCODE SGM games with either an official licensed or no license required software emulation of the sound chip used in the OPCODE SGM (possible a third party firmware update well be made available. All this needs to be worked out before release date).

 

Now OPCODE Games was planning on releasing the Prometheus videogame system that is more powerful than the ADAM computer with a SGM attached. The Prometheus would use some advanced late 80’s chipset technology that would allow videogame programmers to make exclusive videogames that would run only on the Prometheus videogame system. Technically the CollectorVision game system is much more powerful than the Prometheus videogame system, and if OPCODE games would allow it, a fully licensed Prometheus BIOS firmware update could be made for the CollectorVision game system. If Prometheus becomes a reality then there could be several dozens of new games that well only run on that system until a licensed Prometheus firmware is released for the CollectorVision videogame system.

 

To be honest I cannot see any advantage to owning a Prometheus game system if the expansion module interface does not handle original Coleco expansion products. It is too bad OPCODE Games and CollectorVision cannot work together on the CollectorVision system. The CollectorVision game system could support a custom ColecoVision II BIOS that is 16 bit, 16:9 screen ratio, and stereo sound if someone wanted to spend a lot of time emulating a very fast 16 bit Z80 style CPU or other 16 bit CPU.

Edited May 29, 2018 by HDTV1080P

[JEFF31]

Anyway, stuff like this needs to be kept behind closed doors, so just PM each other of better yet, call and talk seeing as there is just too much emailing, texting, tweeting, etc. this days which usually confuses and inflames the situation compared to actual spoken conversation. Shit, go old school, pick up a phone, preferrably a rotary and make a call.

 

 

 

DUH - YEAH!

 

Said it in the past...The community doesn't need this drama...

 

He said / he said / claimed / didn't claim!

 

Geez I like you all and the stuff you put out...

 

but this stuff

 

 

TURNS ME OFF TO THE COLECOVISION SCENE...

 

 

and trust me I feel this is true of others.

 

DO NOT KILL the golden goose guys.

 

 

PLEASE work out the details (or don't) but don't bring it here!

 

I believe you are all mature adults enough to do this - don't disappoint us.

 

 

Thank You

 

Jeff31

[youki]

 

DO NOT KILL the golden goose guys.

 

 

That 's the main source of the problem : the golden goose.

 

So i would say instead kill the golden goose . The colecovision scene will be much healthier , IMHO.

[TPR]

This right here...

 

What's the big deal about adding 20 bucks to that price? If if was something like 50$, I'd probably say no, but 20$? Oh no-no-no! They're asking for 240$US instead of 220$US! THAT'S WAY TOO EXPENSIVE! I'm not buying this console at that outrageous price!!"

 

If we are really fighting over a twenty dollar bill please just stop right now. Twenty dollars is nothing. Just say "yes" to that deal, include the SGM into the system, continue making SGM games, put out an amazing system, and all parties, customers included, are happy.

 

When I think of the amount of money I have spent over the past few years collecting and playing ColecoVision games, seriously, spending an extra twenty dollars wouldn't even be on my radar of things to get hung up over. If twenty dollars is what it takes to help bring this community back together and for me to say "THANK YOU" to all parties involved for their hard work, you can count me in!

[youki]

How you can say 20$ is nothing? It is may be "nothing" for you , but i'm sure there is some people for whom 20$ is a lot.