RetroN 77

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Weird, it loaded just fine for me before and after your post... No idea

It is still down for me and the url I linked, but another site said it was up and reachable. I still can't get it as of the time of this post. Might be bad DNS records...

[Karyyk]

I'm really looking forward to this (an HDMI-connected 2600 is something I've wanted for a while), but I really hope they go about acquiring the emulation code the right way this time (not the case with the Retron 5, sadly)...

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It is still down for me and the url I linked, but another site said it was up and reachable. I still can't get it as of the time of this post. Might be bad DNS records...

Up for me now.

[Schizophretard]

I'd be surprised if it really did support the Harmony cart. I'm not aware of any other emulation-based implementation that works with a flash cart of any type. The only way is usually via direct SD card, not an intermediary. If it did in fact support Harmony, it would be a true breakthrough for this type of device.

 

It probably uses hybrid emulation.

[Flojomojo]

Page isn't loading for me...

http://www.isitdownrightnow.com/libretro.com.html

It's working for me. Could be you, or could be when you tried it.

 

Here's a pdf print of it. I'm no lawyer and I'm not saying they're right or wrong, just pointing out what was alleged. I think Hyperkin responded, but probably not to libretro's satisfaction. It seems that what they're saying is true, but since MAME and other emulators aren't much fun without using ROMs from sketchy sources, I find it difficult to be ideologically "pure" about this.

 

RetroArch, Libretro core license violations by Hyperkin’s Retron5 – Libretro.pdf

[Thomas Jentzsch]

...since MAME and other emulators aren't much fun without using ROMs from sketchy sources, I find it difficult to be ideologically "pure" about this.

I think there is quite a difference between using actively developed code and ROMS which are multiple decades old.

 

Violating the license is harming further development and will lead to more closed code. So IMO this is very bad for the community. The same can definitely not be said for using old ROMs.

[AndrewHyperkin]

Hi guys, I'm Andrew Steel from Hyperkin. First I want to thank you all for your support, it means a lot to our company and to me personally. I'm very excited to work on this project, aiming to make it as good as it gets. That's why I'm here to share my thoughts and hear your opinions.

 

We did license Stella and obtained a custom build with a few important improvements. As many of you noticed, there is a 2-seconds loading screen when you hotswap the game. It is actually there only to ensure the hotswap procedure happens smoothly. It is only a prototype for now, and we didn't want any hiccups to occur at E3. In the final version the loading screen will be gone, because I think normally users wouldn't mind hitting Reset if the console occasionally attempts to read the cart earlier than it's fully inserted.

 

It is a very challenging task to cover the vast library of games and homebrews. But I know that supporting certain things is cruicial, so we went an extra mile and developed a way to work with Harmony. I cannot guarantee that this feature will still be present in the final release due to certain potential legal concerns, but we all understand its importance to the scene and will do our best to keep it.

 

Our primary goal is to ensure good compatibility with real cartridges because well, they are awesome, and the 2600 is actually a quite affordable platform to collect for. Please message us with your contact info if you are willing to jump on board and offer your help with testing the system for compatibility.

 

Also, since we officially partner with the scene, I would actually prefer for the system to be open-source. In my envision, it will ship with our own Stella build, hardware-wise prepared to be tinkered with -- just in case if someone out there wants to remove or add any features they want.

 

We understand that the system has to be affordable, so our target price is 50 USD, give or take. Too early to state it firmly and predict the costs, we are still working on the features. I think it generally would be a bad idea to add some extra hardware just to support a peripheral used in 2-3 games and make the system way too expensive, so we expect to go for a good balance of what it does and what it does not. Again, if you are willing to offer your help with that, even just an opinion, please don't hesitate and message me and our R&D department at developer@hyperkin.com.

 

As it is for now, I can confirm that our newest build has the following working physical buttons that we plan to bring to the front: reset, select, save, load; a few buttons on the back: difficulty, game mode, color/bw/scanlines, aspect ratio, glitch switch. As most of people who came to talk to me and to try to earlier prototype, it plays games in clear HD without any noticeable issues.

 

As for the controller to ship with the system, we expect to stick to the classic design with a paddle wheel on the side or perhaps just around the stick. It's our own design but of course original joysticks will work as well. I'd personally refrain from anything D-pad based because if you want one, you can use a Genesis controller, but please feel free to share your thoughts.

 

Now, the release date, we will try to make it happen before Christmas. It is also a very challenging plan, but we work hard to make it happen.

 

And for those of you who wonder in the previous posts, your humble servant is 32 :-)

[hizzy]

Sounds very interesting. I'm glad you joined, Andrew. I can't wait to see this in person!

[dj_convoy]

Supporting a Starcharger would be my personal little thing.

[+stephena]

We did license Stella and obtained a custom build with a few important improvements. As many of you noticed, there is a 2-seconds loading screen when you hotswap the game. It is actually there only to ensure the hotswap procedure happens smoothly. It is only a prototype for now, and we didn't want any hiccups to occur at E3. In the final version the loading screen will be gone, because I think normally users wouldn't mind hitting Reset if the console occasionally attempts to read the cart earlier than it's fully inserted.

 

My main concern is if you're using the GPL'ed version of Stella (or not), and if so, that you will release the changes as required by the GPL. If you are licensing from the closed-source version of Stella, then be aware that means version 1.1. If you are using any code from version 1.2 onwards, then that is under the GPLv2 and must be released.

 

I am stating this publicly, to be above board and make sure everyone is clear on what is happening. I just want to make sure you fully understand the licensing. Just because you may have gotten permission from Brad Mott (original Stella creator) to use the closed-source version doesn't mean that you are allowed to the GPL'ed version. And unfortunately, many of the features that people are requesting here are only available in the GPL'ed version.

 

IMHO, I think you should go with the GPL'ed version to get all the latest features, and then release the source-code modifications when you release the hardware. Of course the choice is up to you; I just want the licensing to be upheld.

 

Thanks,

Steve A.

Stella maintainer

 

P.S. I think one of the issues here is that I found it odd that I wasn't contacted. Although Brad Mott is the original author of Stella, I have basically taken over full maintainership at least 10 years ago, and Brad hasn't really be involved since then. So in effect there's two maintainers; one for the closed-source code, and one for the open-sourced code. And the codebase was opened almost 17 years ago, so if you're going to be using closed-source, you won't be able to take advantage of 17 years of improvements in Stella

[Albert]

Hi Andrew and welcome to AtariAge!

I'm excited to see the release of the Retron 77, as it'll be nice to have a new console that supports 2600 cartridges directly. I'd love to test the large AtariAge homebrew library with the Retron 77. We have a variety of boards we use, and we've published well over 100 games on the 2600 at this point. I've sent an email to the address you provided.

Also, I'm hoping you can answer the questions regarding licensing of Stella, and which version Hyperkin plans to use. In my opinion, to make the Retron 77 more compelling, it's imperative that a modern version of Stella be used. I know there are homebrew games that won't work on Stella 1.1. And probably many games from the original library as well. Steve has done a remarkable amount of work on Stella over the years, and it would be a shame if Hyperkin didn't take advantage of those improvements.

..Al

[+Tarzilla]

 

Hi Andrew and welcome to AtariAge!

I'm excited to see the release of the Retron 77, as it'll be nice to have a new console that supports 2600 cartridges directly. I'd love to test the large AtariAge homebrew library with the Retron 77. We have a variety of boards we use, and we've published well over 100 games on the 2600 at this point. I've sent an email to the address you provided.

Also, I'm hoping you can answer the questions regarding licensing of Stella, and which version Hyperkin plans to use. In my opinion, to make the Retron 77 more compelling, it's imperative that a modern version of Stella be used. I know there are homebrew games that won't work on Stella 1.1. And probably many games from the original library as well. Steve has done a remarkable amount of work on Stella over the years, and it would be a shame if Hyperkin didn't take advantage of those improvements.

..Al

 

It would also be a shame if the manual didn't include a link to the AA store as a source of NEW games, not just originals, so that anyone buying this can see what we already do.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Any idea where to get version 1.1 (usable for Windows 10)? Maybe testing some known critical ROMs and posting the results here, helps supporting Stephen's and Albert's argument.

 

IIRC Stella 1.1 didn't even support undocumented opcodes, which would rule out a lot of modern homebrews.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch

[lapetino]

Thanks for connecting with the community, Andrew.

This all sounds very promising and we appreciate the lengths you're going through to make this happen. I'm not a tech guy, but I hope you're also considering Trak-Ball controller support, and maybe the 2600/7800 Atari DPads too: https://i.warosu.org/data/vr/img/0015/79/1398689880452.jpg

The proposed price point is solid and I think this will be a great thing for the community too, if people can get in and tinker with it.

Thanks!

[lapetino]

It would also be a shame if the manual didn't include a link to the AA store as a source of NEW games, not just originals, so that anyone buying this can see what we already do.

That would be cool, but it's also a tricky thing because some of the games sold on AA aren't totally licensed versions of their respective intellectual property. I would understand if a company like Hyperkin might not want to step into that gray and muddy IP area.

[+stephena]

It would probably suffice to test against version 1.2, since the changes from 1.1 to 1.2 were mostly added features, not many improvements to the emulation itself. But TBH, I doubt that many of those older versions will even compile on newer systems.

 

You can get the oldest version from https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/releases?after=release-2.0, but I don't know if it will run in current Windows; it almost certainly won't run in Linux, and the Mac version is pre-OSX (this is 17 years ago, after all).

 

EDIT: Version 1.1 didn't support illegal opcodes, so Thomas is right that this will rule out many newer homebrews. And while I have access to the 1.1 source, I'm not sure I have permission to release it, and it almost definitely won't compile anyway (and there was only a DOS version, I believe). That's what makes me think that if Hyperkin has a version of Stella running on newer hardware, it very likely must be a GPL'ed version.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It would probably suffice to test against version 1.2, since the changes from 1.1 to 1.2 were mostly added features, not many improvements to the emulation itself.

Well, 1.2 added among other things undocumented ("illegal") opcodes and Pitfall II support. And the executable doesn't run on my system anyway.

[Keatah]

Once we know the version being used, the community at large can offer more input and perhaps do compatibility testing.

[Schizophretard]

These two parts confuse me:

"We did license Stella and obtained a custom build with a few important improvements."

"Also, since we officially partner with the scene, I would actually prefer for the system to be open-source. In my envision, it will ship with our own Stella build, hardware-wise prepared to be tinkered with -- just in case if someone out there wants to remove or add any features they want."

 

Who was this custom build of Stella licensed from because if it is the GPL'ed version then the GPL is already the license and would already fulfill your preference of the system being open source? And if it is the GPL'ed version then why not release this custom build now so that people can test it out for feedback since you will have to release its source code later anyway? If you prefer the system to be open source and are aiming for release before Christmas then there is no better day than today to release the source code of this custom build so that those who know what they are looking at can give feedback for improvements.

[DirtyHairy]

It seems that what they're saying is true, but since MAME and other emulators aren't much fun without using ROMs from sketchy sources, I find it difficult to be ideologically "pure" about this.

 

RetroArch, Libretro core license violations by Hyperkin’s Retron5 – Libretro.pdf

 

As an author of open source software, I disagree with all my heart Violating the GPL in a commercial work is illegally monetarizing the effort of software authors that usually work for no financial compompensation at all (easily 1000s of hours) --- in other words, stealing. If you steal a crowbar, it is still stealing, even though crowbars are routinely used for shady business.

 

Of course, I very much hope that this is not the situation here and that Hyperkin either uses a pre-GPL version of Stella with permission from Brad Mott (and with or without their own fixes for all the issues with it) or that they release the modified source und the GPL as soon as the product hits the market.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Once we know the version being used, the community at large can offer more input and perhaps do compatibility testing.

I am all for it, but only if they play by the rules. If not, we absolutely should not support plain theft.

 

Fingers crossed!

[DirtyHairy]

We did license Stella and obtained a custom build with a few important improvements.

 

As Stella has been GPL for almost two decades, I am confused. Precisely which version of Stella did you license?

 

Also, since we officially partner with the scene, I would actually prefer for the system to be open-source. In my envision, it will ship with our own Stella build, hardware-wise prepared to be tinkered with -- just in case if someone out there wants to remove or add any features they want.

 

I don't understand you wording here. If you include GPL software in you firmware, then this is not a question of preferences (at least as far as those parts are concerned).

Edited June 17, 2017 by DirtyHairy

[Keatah]

Well yes. Certainly. Does Hyperkin have the skills necessary to re-write an emulator core?

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's working for me. Could be you, or could be when you tried it.

 

Here's a pdf print of it. I'm no lawyer and I'm not saying they're right or wrong, just pointing out what was alleged. I think Hyperkin responded, but probably not to libretro's satisfaction. It seems that what they're saying is true, but since MAME and other emulators aren't much fun without using ROMs from sketchy sources, I find it difficult to be ideologically "pure" about this.

 

RetroArch, Libretro core license violations by Hyperkin’s Retron5 – Libretro.pdf

Yeah, I have heard this stink before. The fact that open sourced communities do not have the finances to hire legal counsel to take down these rogues means that corporate bullies are free to do what they want with it.

 

Oddly enough, the page now loads through my ISP (ATT UVERSE) just fine but the IS IT DOWN site still showing down for everyone. Strange.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Hi guys, I'm Andrew Steel from Hyperkin. First I want to thank you all for your support, it means a lot to our company and to me personally. I'm very excited to work on this project, aiming to make it as good as it gets. That's why I'm here to share my thoughts and hear your opinions.

 

We did license Stella and obtained a custom build with a few important improvements. As many of you noticed, there is a 2-seconds loading screen when you hotswap the game. It is actually there only to ensure the hotswap procedure happens smoothly. It is only a prototype for now, and we didn't want any hiccups to occur at E3. In the final version the loading screen will be gone, because I think normally users wouldn't mind hitting Reset if the console occasionally attempts to read the cart earlier than it's fully inserted.

 

It is a very challenging task to cover the vast library of games and homebrews. But I know that supporting certain things is cruicial, so we went an extra mile and developed a way to work with Harmony. I cannot guarantee that this feature will still be present in the final release due to certain potential legal concerns, but we all understand its importance to the scene and will do our best to keep it.

 

Our primary goal is to ensure good compatibility with real cartridges because well, they are awesome, and the 2600 is actually a quite affordable platform to collect for. Please message us with your contact info if you are willing to jump on board and offer your help with testing the system for compatibility.

 

Also, since we officially partner with the scene, I would actually prefer for the system to be open-source. In my envision, it will ship with our own Stella build, hardware-wise prepared to be tinkered with -- just in case if someone out there wants to remove or add any features they want.

 

We understand that the system has to be affordable, so our target price is 50 USD, give or take. Too early to state it firmly and predict the costs, we are still working on the features. I think it generally would be a bad idea to add some extra hardware just to support a peripheral used in 2-3 games and make the system way too expensive, so we expect to go for a good balance of what it does and what it does not. Again, if you are willing to offer your help with that, even just an opinion, please don't hesitate and message me and our R&D department at developer@hyperkin.com.

 

As it is for now, I can confirm that our newest build has the following working physical buttons that we plan to bring to the front: reset, select, save, load; a few buttons on the back: difficulty, game mode, color/bw/scanlines, aspect ratio, glitch switch. As most of people who came to talk to me and to try to earlier prototype, it plays games in clear HD without any noticeable issues.

 

As for the controller to ship with the system, we expect to stick to the classic design with a paddle wheel on the side or perhaps just around the stick. It's our own design but of course original joysticks will work as well. I'd personally refrain from anything D-pad based because if you want one, you can use a Genesis controller, but please feel free to share your thoughts.

 

Now, the release date, we will try to make it happen before Christmas. It is also a very challenging plan, but we work hard to make it happen.

 

And for those of you who wonder in the previous posts, your humble servant is 32 :-)

Thank you for coming out and doing things right going forward. I'm interested to know how compatibility with Harmony cart works, but I do not believe there will be any legal hurdles to allowing it to operate (as on original hardware) even if you don't advertise it as working. To deliberately cripple a device in order to prevent infringing use by a minority of users would be a disservice to the community IMO. I am also thankful that you are going the extra mile to ensure that licenses are followed by acknowledging the authors of the emulator(s) and working with them to ensure that everything is kosher.

 

I think to have Stella preinstalled on the device, you would need to release the source code along with any modifications, and provide a means for users to compile it and update their own Retron77s accordingly.

 

And at a minimum I think that your console should be capable of running games that employ expansion chips such as ARM (Space Rocks, and all other "Melody" based homebrews) and the original Activision DCP (Pitfall II) as well as Super Charger and a few other vintage or modern devices. You mentioned supporting all controller peripherals. Well the AtariVox uses the UDRL inputs on the player two controller as bidirectional data lines to communicate with the console so that it can save high score data or output voice to a speech chip for specially developed homebrews that use the feature.

 

"Bus stuffing" would be a nice bonus but as that technique doesn't universally work on all revisions of Atari hardware (notably certain Jr and 7800 models) and support is only now being tested in the latest bleeding edge versions of Stella, it isn't critical that such advanced techniques work.

 

If games such as Space Rocks and Pitfall II run flawlessly on the new Retron77 (irregardless of Harmony support but that would be icing on the cake), you sir have yourselves a buyer in me.