RetroN 77

[Flojomojo]

In all the years this forum has been around. I'm surprised nobody banded together to get a console that is "VCS faithful" into production. Oh sure we've seen plenty of FPGA, emulation, and other 1-off projects. But nothing to replace the original. Not without compromises.

 

It'd be cool to see an originally "shaped" console with 6 switches, that plays all cartridges, accepts all controllers, and has an SD slot tucked away in the back. All the while supporting standard RF, composite, and HDMI.

 

A no-compromises console. Nothing sacrificed in place of something else. Essentially it would be identical to a sixer, with the only giveaways being a few extra ports/connectors on the back - discretely hidden.

Sounds like a job for "Atari"! What you describe sounds more fun than whatever AtariBox is supposed to be.

 

The new Flashback sounds neat, but it lacks SD card or cartridge support. The Retron 77 sounds neat, though with uncertain emulation and no SD card either. Something is always held back, which IMHO encourages piracy. Seems they'd do better by embracing it and taking a cut for themselves.

[+stephena]

As long as they (or any company) obeys the GPL, then I have no issue. Sure, I may personally think it's not a good idea to not use the latest and greatest, but in the end each company has to choose what they think is best for them and their customers. Again, as long as they're obeying the licensing.

[AtariLeaf]

As long as they (or any company) obeys the GPL, then I have no issue. Sure, I may personally think it's not a good idea to not use the latest and greatest, but in the end each company has to choose what they think is best for them and their customers. Again, as long as they're obeying the licensing.

 

Once it's released will you know if they did or not?

[toiletunes]

If it works with homebrews, that would be suspicious. Not a giveaway, as their own updates may make it possible, but that's the first thing I'd check.

[DirtyHairy]

Once it's released will you know if they did or not?

I guess we will

[Keatah]

Sounds like a job for "Atari"! What you describe sounds more fun than whatever AtariBox is supposed to be.

 

Ohh it would be more fun. The original VCS + some modern extras, but nothing missing from the original. I always wanted to sponsor a project like that. A no compromises accurate and versatile and upgraded VCS. The VCS II, with 40 years of solid heritage behind it. Because, every project to date is missing something. Downgraded in some way. Inaccurate in others. Cheapened in all.

[Flojomojo]

 

Ohh it would be more fun. The original VCS + some modern extras, but nothing missing from the original. I always wanted to sponsor a project like that. A no compromises accurate and versatile and upgraded VCS. The VCS II, with 40 years of solid heritage behind it. Because, every project to date is missing something. Downgraded in some way. Inaccurate in others. Cheapened in all.

And it would cost $200 so no one would stock it, and it would still be inferior to emulation setups we can make ourselves. Sigh

[Andromeda Stardust]

Hopefully the specs are high enough to do more than version 1.1. If this thing is suppose to accept carts, be compatible with real controllers, output through HDMI, etc. to give a quality experience then it should have specs closer to their Retron 5 instead of my electronic cigarette or my wife's vibrator.

 

QFT.

[Andromeda Stardust]

If it works with homebrews, that would be suspicious. Not a giveaway, as their own updates may make it possible, but that's the first thing I'd check.

It it doesn't work with homebrew, I'm not buying it. Space Rocks or bust. Draconian would be boss though.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I found this an interesting look into the issues surrounding GPLv3 licensing. It appears Sega's Sega Forever app on mobile has been hit with terrible sub-par emulation due to a dispute over Retroarch licensing, so they recoded the game engines for unity instead, with abysmal performance.

 

 

As for RetroArch, developer Daniel De Matteis offered Eurogamer the following explanation as to why it couldn't come to terms with Sega on this project:

• "We were contacted around late December of last year. We were asked to make a demo for a GDC event that one of Sega's subsidiaries would be attending based on pretty much a gentleman's agreement. It was pretty much like the Sega Forever you see now but with RetroArch used under the hood.
• "We saw this idea initially as appealing since it would have been a legitimate use of RetroArch with a rights holder. This is something we've wanted to pursue for some time: leveraging libretro/RetroArch's performance and portability to get developers' games, both emulated and otherwise, in the hands of users.
• "What we were less than satisfied with was the repeated attempts to try to force us to relicense our code. RetroArch is licensed under the GPL license and one of the stipulations of that license is that source code changes have to be made available when it is modified. They wanted us to relicense to MIT instead.
• "The problem with that is, we'd have to get the hundreds of other contributors to sign off on the relicense (some of whom are not around anymore), and it would alienate a large portion of our userbase and stifle further development if the developers knew their work was just going to be ripped off and resold instead of improved upon by others. We are a strictly volunteer group that promotes the use of free and open source software.
• "We have already been abused by many entrepreneurs in the past who have violated the license and used RetroArch and our libretro emulator cores (including strictly non-commercial licensed ones) for non-legitimate and monetary purposes. New apps appear on the Google Play Store often that take advantage of our hard work for profit, as well as some commercially shipped hardware console clones. Moving to an MIT license would essentially give us no leg to stand on, no real legal protection anymore and it would make it even easier for any entrepreneur to simply take RetroArch, spin it off, claim ownership of it and not so much as to have to give any code back, or to pay any compensation. To agree to relicense RetroArch to MIT like this would simply leave us open to way more abuse. We generally got the feeling that while people wanted to drink from the deep well of open source code, companies felt zero compelling reason to contribute back or give proper acknowledgement even in the tiniest way.
• "We also spent countless amounts of time developing and setting up matchmaking and online multiplayer servers in multiple countries for the purpose of providing cross-platform netplay and were given less than realistic live use-case scenarios. This costed us lots of time, resources, and several contributors who had to spend literally sleepless nights getting these last-minute requirements put in near the deadline never having been informed beforehand that this would be a necessity. The basic expectation given to us was simply that netplay would be a peer-to-peer affair much in the vein of For Honor, where your router needs to support UPNP. In the span of a weekend that scope got extended to 'hey it's gotta work over 3G/4G as well', and with basically impossible response time expectations. Pretty much an inability to understand that emulation-based netplay is different from say some regular game's netplay, and in the end, it seemed the finished product didn't even use it anyway.
• "The silver lining is that these features are now available in RetroArch and our users get to enjoy a superior gaming experience as a result of our hard work. I just wish Sega's customers could have experienced it, as well.
• "[P.S.] While doing that demo, we also had to fight a battle to get any kind of branding shown onscreen; it seemed like there was a lot of reluctance to acknowledge that RetroArch/libretro was powering this application, and it didn't feel right to us that we wouldn't even be granted exposure in the event this would be denied to us, leaving us essentially with nothing. In the end, for that demo we were eventually allowed to show the branding at the splash screen, but in our mind we shouldn't have to even had to insist on it to begin with."

Full article:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-06-21-sega-releases-classic-games-on-mobile-for-free-but-at-what-cost

 

So it appears to be Retron taking the same low road with trying to update an ancient version of Stella instead of using the latest installment. There's no guarantee even Pitfall II will work if they choose to go with the v1.1 codebase. This is another serious blow to the public's eye of emulation if bad devices get out, people will assume that the games are broke and were broke bitd, and public perception of these old classics could take a hit if emulation is sub-par.

 

AtGames was in a similar circumstance with their Genesis clones in the pre-HD era, with other devices like the Super Retro Trio and Retron3 working just great on the 16-bit side of things. It is very sad that licensed emulation projects need to take a backseat to the stellar emulation experiences retrogamers have been enjoying for years, whether on PC, Raspberry Pi, Android, even if downloading ROMs from questionable sources online is a legal gray area.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Agreed, but my line in the sand is simply what works on this and what doesn't. I simply don't understand Hyperkins thinking here.

Just speculating here:

 

They licensed 1.1 for some money and may have already invested more money into upgrading 1.1. So if they would now switch to GPL, that money would be lost (wasted!). So the persons responsible for spending this money may now object switching to GPL to save their reputations or even jobs.

 

That would make sense, wouldn't it?

[Schizophretard]

QFT.

 

Quantum Field Theory?

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Quantum Field Theory?

Quote for truth. Sorry I use too many acronyms.

 

When I first did instant messaging back in the day, I didn't know what LOL ("laugh out loud") and BRB ("be right back" or "bath room break") was.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Just speculating here:

 

They licensed 1.1 for some money and may have already invested more money into upgrading 1.1. So if they would now switch to GPL, that money would be lost (wasted!). So the persons responsible for spending this money may now object switching to GPL to save their reputations or even jobs.

 

That would make sense, wouldn't it?

What difference does it make if most newer games don't run on it? It's compatibility will be just as bad as the Retron5 was with NES homebrew.

[tdp]

But if the console is open source, then isn't the version 1.1 issue a bit of a moot point, as later versions of Stella can added when the console is released. I know that would mean loosing the code that Hyperkin added, but a newer Stella versions means newer features. Right?

[Schizophretard]

Quote for truth. Sorry I use too many acronyms.

 

When I first did instant messaging back in the day, I didn't know what LOL ("laugh out loud") and BRB ("be right back" or "bath room break") was.

I know what it means. I have access to search engines. I was just being a smart ass. I don't see why I needed quoted for truth though. It isn't like I'm ever going to try to deny using electronic cigarettes. However, it does appear one of the mods must have edited my post to include something about a vibrator as some kind of prank. Those sneaky bastards.

[Schizophretard]

Just speculating here:

 

They licensed 1.1 for some money and may have already invested more money into upgrading 1.1. So if they would now switch to GPL, that money would be lost (wasted!). So the persons responsible for spending this money may now object switching to GPL to save their reputations or even jobs.

 

That would make sense, wouldn't it?

 

Yeah, that would make sense but it seems like the kind of thing someone would do to make it look like they are being useful and inventing work for themselves to save their job.

 

[Schizophretard]

But if the console is open source, then isn't the version 1.1 issue a bit of a moot point, as later versions of Stella can added when the console is released. I know that would mean loosing the code that Hyperkin added, but a newer Stella versions means newer features. Right?

 

If it doesn't already come with an open source version then the console isn't open source.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

But if the console is open source, then isn't the version 1.1 issue a bit of a moot point, as later versions of Stella can added when the console is released. I know that would mean loosing the code that Hyperkin added, but a newer Stella versions means newer features. Right?

I think for adding a newer version of Stella, some extra code is required. Also they may try to protect the consoles software. So I would not bet on it.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I know what it means. I have access to search engines. I was just being a smart ass. I don't see why I needed quoted for truth though. It isn't like I'm ever going to try to deny using electronic cigarettes. However, it does appear one of the mods must have edited my post to include something about a vibrator as some kind of prank. Those sneaky bastards.

I bet you had to Google QFT to find the quantum field theory bit, you cyber sleuth. I got no beef with you or your ecigs or any marital aids. I just thought your post was funny so I quoted it. And yes, the mods are constantly putting humorous words into our posts. As regular forum members, we do not control our posts but are merely puppets doing the mods' bidding.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think for adding a newer version of Stella, some extra code is required. Also they may try to protect the consoles software. So I would not bet on it.

Corporate greed. Everything should be open and free. Nothing declassified, period. No copyrights. No patents. No Hipaa. No top secret NSA documents. No covert ops. No bin laden raids because everyone just gets along and there's no need for terrorism. Everything is open and everyone is happy. No need for monetary systems either. Nobody works for pay, just help each other out when needed. If you want something of mine, well here I'll let you have it. Nobody hoards the things of the past monetary loving society. Pass them around. Have at it. My game collection is your library. Free rentals for all, and if you don't return it, I'll forgive you because I know you would do me likewise.

 

Sarcasm aside, clearly there needs some balance. Free to use and proprietary can never truly mix. I download games on my Switch or Wii-U and in the credits they list all the GPL assets they used in the game (often for video/audio decoders), but nowhere do I find repositories for the source code of said game. How is it they are allowed to use GPL assets in their game and sell it commercially?

 

So is modifying code for your own use, then only share the parts you modified, but not the source for the entire software or device, compatible with GPLv3? In other words Hyperkin could use the Stella emulator, modify it to be compatible with their proprietary cartridge reader, release the changes to the code, but still keep the source to their proprietary cartridge reading firmware confidential? Would that be allowable?

[Schizophretard]

I bet you had to Google QFT to find the quantum field theory bit, you cyber sleuth. I got no beef with you or your ecigs or any marital aids. I just thought your post was funny so I quoted it. And yes, the mods are constantly putting humorous words into our posts. As regular forum members, we do not control our posts but are merely puppets doing the mods' bidding.

 

No, I DuckDuckGoed it. Marital aids? No, we tested negative for that. We just have hairpiece.

 

[Keatah]

It's really just profit and greed. AND NOT WHAT THE CLASSIC GAMER WANTS. Makes you think these companies don't know Shit from Shinola.. the way they behave.. the decisions they make..

 

"So why did Sega go with Unity instead of RetroArch? "About 90 per cent of the games so far are in Unity," Sega Networks' chief marketing officer Mike Evans explained in an interview with GamesIndustry.biz. "The reason we chose Unity as middleware is it enables us to take this content to other platforms as well."

 

Yeh right.. It's just slick marketing and maneuvering to increase profit and control. Who wants to take underperforming games to other platforms?

 

---

 

Anyways, shenanigans like so can potentially give emulation a bad rap. Bad enough "emulation" is still plagued with the "crappiness" of pre-alpha versions of the 1990's. But to purposely make your product mediocre because of internal corporate pride? Remind me not to get any of those sega games. Or RetroN 77 if it doesn't do the right thing and use the latest version of Stella.

[AtariLeaf]

I'd like to see the Hyperkin rep who posted here return and answer some of these questions and concerns. When we know for a fact that they read these boards and see these concerns, the silence can be both deafening and damning.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'd like to see the Hyperkin rep who posted here return and answer some of these questions and concerns. When we know for a fact that they read these boards and see these concerns, the silence can be both deafening and damning.

His username is Dr Manhattan and he is still very much active on these boards. I think he's a good guy who wants to be here. Please don't shoot the messenger over decisions corporate makes that he likely has little control over.

 

He did say they had Harmony cart running at one point (which would be very difficult to emulate at bus level) so I give him benefit of the doubt unless we learn otherwise.

 

Retron77 might suck, but it might also be the bee's knees. We really don't know yet what the final product will be capable of.