JaguarVision Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 I don't see where your getting more ads for 86 Bill. 7800 was advertised alone as well as with the Atari computers in additional press. Not to mention the Xegs sold out at launch despite actually having less coverage than the other 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I'm still convinced that's a profit margin, because there's no reason they would've been selling their games for 7 bucks either. It wasn't the crash, and it wasn't the end of life phase when they were on clearance.Correct, those are wholesale prices in the report. My understanding is that at retail 7800 consoles sold for $80 and cartridges for $15 maybe $20. A 1000% markup on a console doesn't make sense but an 18% markup does; and a $7 markup on a $15 cartridge sounds somewhat reasonable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I don't see where your getting more ads for 86 Bill. 7800 was advertised alone as well as with the Atari computers in additional press. Not to mention the Xegs sold out at launch despite actually having less coverage than the other 3. I'm not talking about 1986. I'm talking about throughout their respective lifespans. The NES obviously dominated TV and magazines in terms of coverage, but the SMS had a good amount as well. The 7800 was virtually non-existent in those areas, with just a few notable exceptions. That's the disparity I'm talking about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 That's invalid, SMS ads didn't clearly overshadow the 7800 until 89-90. Which is when Game gear and Genesis series appearing on SMS started boosting it's sales. Most magazines barely mentioned SMS and the 780/ but almost any who did put the 7800 above the SMS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 That's invalid, SMS ads didn't clearly overshadow the 7800 until 89-90. Which is when Game gear and Genesis series appearing on SMS started boosting it's sales. Most magazines barely mentioned SMS and the 780/ but almost any who did put the 7800 above the SMS. Oh my goodness... This couldn't be more wrong. I give up at this point. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 I mean I only have to go to Google newspaper archive or news library and imnediatelystrained see more mentions of the 7800 and constant nedja like the L.A. Times constantly speaking of the 7800 as ahead of the SMs. The former is even free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari181 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I mean I only have to go to Google newspaper archive or news library and imnediatelystrained see more mentions of the 7800 and constant nedja like the L.A. Times constantly speaking of the 7800 as ahead of the SMs. The former is even free. yeah Bill, you have no idea ! :0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Black_Tiger Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 That's invalid, SMS ads didn't clearly overshadow the 7800 until 89-90. Which is when Game gear and Genesis series appearing on SMS started boosting it's sales. Most magazines barely mentioned SMS and the 780/ but almost any who did put the 7800 above the SMS. You know, you claiming that your unique perspective of gaming bitd was the reality for everyone everywhere, while most people in retro gaming discussions actually collectively remember things pretty much the opposite of you is one thing. But whenever you veer into documented history like gaming mags, you're proving that you're either a lying troll or simply mentally ill. It should be needless to say, but I will for your benefit: Most/all magazines disagree with you and would appreciate not being dragged into your revisionist fantasies. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 You can go look at archives if major press and see the vast majority of them in the first few years put the 7800 above the SMS in multiple regards. It's not just me either I'm not the only person in this thread who is saying that. It seems more like people trying really hard to prove the SMS beat the 7800 in the u.sm but with no numerical evidence. So trying to use anecdotes instead. I can go on the links I gave and find articles about stores running out of stock of 7800's, more 7800 ads (not more game ads though admittedly) and in almost every articles when sales are brought up they almost always put the 7800 behind the NES. In NA I find it odd this us strange to people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I find in that last sentence your engrish to be strange. Look if you think you're right, sources are out there. Link it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Asking if the SMS beat the Atari 7800 is like asking if Deep Roy could kick Warwick Davis's ass. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Asking if the SMS beat the Atari 7800 is like asking if Deep Roy could kick Warwick Davis's ass. I don't know who would win, but I'd watch that. https://youtu.be/cEVilNDXd0A?t=1m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Black_Tiger Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Everywhere I went in Canada and in my few visits to the U.S. bitd, I saw SMS games everywhere and never saw anything for the 7800. To this day I have yet to see even a uaed 7800 in person. Same deal with flyers and store ads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Sega was a well known brand especially in the Arcades, and most people knew that Atari that was into gaming in 1987 was Atari Games; So it not comparable to compare Press release's, as Sega didn't needed as much press or commercials to generate better commercial success on the SMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 Uh no Atari is infnous for consumers lumping all Ataris under one name. Sega had arcade hits but they were still not that big yet in the yeat the SMS came out, 86, as you imply, in the u.s. Sega took off after that as a big for and that helped really well for Genesis but there was still arcade competition during the time and a good number of old big names were still in the game by arcade sales and revenue. I remember a thread on here about ace magazine putting the 7800 above the SMS as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I don't think anyone is really disputing that in the first year or so, sales would have been close and quite likely in the 7800's favor for a variety of reasons. I find it unlikely, however, that that situation would have remained the same as the decade wore on with the SMS's better retail presence, release of significant (and many more) games, major television commercials, better magazine coverage, etc. It would have been quite the coup for the 7800 to continue to lead the SMS in sales in the US from a far weaker overall position. I think the way mr_me clearly explained the numbers seems to bare this out. Again, both were specks compared to the numbers the NES was pulling, but if we're talking who led who, it's still hard to think the 7800 would have ended up as runner up in North America (and if the 7800 was indeed runner up, why Atari didn't try to leverage that fact with better third party support and a bigger internal push--another reason it just doesn't add up, including why they were so sluggish in working on a successor). Again, with good numbers that say otherwise, I'd happily concede and then better analyze the reasons why that may have been so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) Doesn't add up? On a forum that bashes the tramiels I don't know why you're asking "why" anything regarding the poor follow ups to the 7800. Or any of their other odd/bad decisions. Or general laziness at that. As for the SMS I get where your coming from. Entering the 90's it was getting a small kind of second life but it just doesn't make sense they sold enough to "pass" the 7800. The first few years were the most important in that time frame. If I recall the 7800 and NES both started peaking in sales the second half of 88. The SMS was almost never in the discussion in magazines talking about NES sales while also mentioning one or both of the other consoles. You also have to consider the first few years Atari still had brand power console wise. They had BC, the XEGS with next to zero advertising sold out at launch one year later, and Atari themselves had their own retail stores in big cities. Not enough to make up the poor retail presence against the NES of course. I just don't see how they could make up that gap considering how both the 7800 and SMS sold so poorly In the U.S. compared to the NES. On a monthly basis. Software sales don't really work here either. Alot of 7800 sales were not bundled and its main selling point was playing 2600 games better than the 2600 along with some arcade hits and some original titles sprinkled about. They even redesigned the 2600 to look like the 7800 as a marketing tool. Atari 2600jr/Atari 7800 was the Xbox 360 E/Xbox One of the 80's. The 7800 apparently sold over 1 million by 88 and 2 million by later 89 and was super cheap still on shelves till 92. The 2 million SMS account was at the NA discontinuation in 92, and it seems the SMS was already in decline in 91 already. By all indications assuming the 7800 and SMS sources are true, the 7800 hit 2 million earlier, and while both sold like cabbage patch kids post fad after 1990 I'm not seeing where the SMS could come out ahead. Edited November 1, 2017 by JaguarVision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 ... The 7800 apparently sold over 1 million by 88 and 2 million by later 89 and was super cheap still on shelves till 92. The 2 million SMS account was at the NA discontinuation in 92, ... Please cite your sources. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) In respective order, this site (press release over 25 million 2600's, over 1 million 7800's), Ace/compute. For SMS, I used the wiki sources. Includes game over book, and a newsbank source which appears to be broken. So I guess only game over. So I guess we only have a direct sources for Atari. Edit:http://atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_01_2008/post-9346-1201143700.jpg Edited November 2, 2017 by JaguarVision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Yes. That Atari press release dated June 1988 has both the 25M 2600s and 1M 7800s. That would be worldwide sales. Edit: According to the Atari sales reports, 1988 was the best year for the 7800 in US sales. If you include US sales through 1988 Christmas they were still well under 1M console sales in the United States. --------- And here's the quote from the 1999 book "Game Over" https://archive.org/stream/Game_Over_1999_Cyberactive_Publishing#page/n357/mode/2up "Seven American and Japanese companies were marketing video- game systems by 1988. But the contenders had little success in damaging Nintendo's share of the market, which was 85 to 90 percent on both sides of the Pacific. Atari sold a handful of its 5200s and 7800s, and Sega sold a total of 2 million Master Systems. Other companies sold too few to count." Edited November 2, 2017 by mr_me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Meanwhile, the SMS kicked all kinds of ass in just about every territory except North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Yes. That Atari press release dated June 1988 has both the 25M 2600s and 1M 7800s. That would be worldwide sales. Edit: According to the Atari sales reports, 1988 was the best year for the 7800 in US sales. If you include US sales through 1988 Christmas they were still well under 1M console sales in the United States. RE: your edit, exactly, and sales definitely weren't going to heat up after 1988 with a NES going full steam ahead into its prime and an SMS getting some its best games and most prominent advertising (again, acknowledging that it was still a shadow of what the NES was doing). Although the Atari 7800 got a handful of bigger name titles like Commando, Double Dragon, and Ikari Warriors in the 1989 - 1990 timeframe, they certainly weren't going to be game changers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 ... For SMS, I used the wiki sources. Includes game over book, and a newsbank source which appears to be broken. So I guess only game over. ... And the other sega reference is from this newspaper article "16-Bit Hits New video games offer better graphics, action". Minneapolis Star Tribune, October 15, 1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Uh what? The 7800 came out in 1987 in Europe and was basically irrelevant everywhere else outside that and the U.S. The 1 million by June 88 had to be near all or all u.s. sales. Wiki and some forums imply it released in Europe in late 87 how many could have sold in Europe in a few months? That's assuming the 87 is true because this very forum believe it was released in Europe during 88/89. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/179040-release-date/ Assuming the 2 million by 89 is true the 7800/ still hit 2 million before the master system. Add I can't seem to find a single old article comparing the 3 consoles putting the SMS ahead of the 7800 outside the article putting the launch year of the SMS at 125,000 and it's the only one that does so. Given what we know it makes no sense to believe the SMS was ahead and either they were realllll close like 360/PS3 or the 7800 was ahead. 1. We know the SMS 2 million was by end of life in 1992. Assuming Game over is valid. (I've also heard 1.5 million thrown around) 2. Depending on what the real 7800 European release date is for the 7800, the 7800's 1 million by June 88 was near all or entirely all American sales. The rest of the year would see the 7800 peak going into 89. 3. If the first part of 2 is correct, nearly all the 1 million sales would be in the U.S. Thus by the time the 780/ peaked it likely be closing in fast on 2 million and then you would have European sales on top of that. Meeting the reported 2 million 7800's in 89. If the later is true and all 1 million were in the US. Nothing would change. Just would reach 2 million faster. 4. Guys here mentioned by 89-91 SMS was getting it's "best games" which is subjective, but by all indications SMS was in decline during those years. Hence the discontinuation. 5. We have a 1 million/nearly all 1 million number for the 7800 in 88. Along with them peaking during the end of the year. We have Zero SMS info at that time. However, we know from 88 to 1992 is around 4ish years, and in 4 years from the 7800 peaking, the SMS ended at a claimed 2 million consoles sold. The 7800 had 4ish years till it was cut in the same year as the SMS, 92, but it was just entering the peaking stage, and was already at 1 million consoles. Even if the holidays only brought the 7800 to 1.5 million, I fail to see how one could think the 7800 couldn't have sold 500k in the U.S. in 3 years, especially at the soon to be bargin prices. But that's ignoring the reported 2 million by 89. The only way I can give the SMS any leeway is by a tie. Assuming after that 2 million in 89 the console crashed into the wall and they ended the same but that's just too unlikely. Edited November 2, 2017 by JaguarVision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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