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TI Basic in windows?


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#1 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:38 AM

Imagine using TI Basic in windows!

All the ram problem is out the window and the speed is there to really let the imagination fly. The next Parsec where you do not need to worry if you have memory to make all the sprites.

So I wonder if there is TI Basic that has been converted to be able to use in windows. I see all the creativity here that is programming in TI B and TI EX B, it makes me think what would you be able to do if some of the limitations where lifted.

There are so many that knows Basic and would be able to give a hand on a huge "TI game". I know there are "better" programming langos. But with Basic you have many people that knows this lango and could be a resource to make something huge.


I started programming on the TI, learned Pascal on PC and since then I have not done any programming. Other then HTML to make web pages, so my TI programming skills gave me a general understanding. I see all the programs that people make here and it makes me think. "I would love to make programs in windows with TI Basic with all the freedom of space!". Right now, the easy thing is to do it in C99, but then I hit the roof with the old limitations. I don't want to learn a new lango. Also many people here could go together to make great games when some of the limitations is lifted in under one common programming lango.

Well its me imagining :P



#2 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:48 AM

Do you know this one?

http://ti-99-or-4a-basic.soft112.com



#3 Ksarul OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:16 AM

Here's the original site for it.



#4 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:11 AM

Do you know if it has the same limits as a TI 99/4A? Or is it open to use lots of ram?

Also... can one do Copy and Past in this program, if not it is not of use. Then C99 is a hundred times better, with its flexibility.

So I think that this program I found is not a real option.


Edited by oddemann, Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:24 AM.


#5 sometimes99er OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:59 AM

Do you know if it has the same limits as a TI 99/4A? Or is it open to use lots of ram?

Also... can one do Copy and Past in this program, if not it is not of use. Then C99 is a hundred times better, with its flexibility.

So I think that this program I found is not a real option.

   

You make your TI Basic program in a text editor of your choice, so copying and pasting is of course available, - and it is probably more than a hundred times faster at pasting. ;)

 

Well, if your goal is the next Parsec, then this implementation, being script-like, will probably only support text, - like no sprites etc.
 

Imagine using TI Basic in windows!

All the ram problem is out the window and the speed is there to really let the imagination fly. The next Parsec where you do not need to worry if you have memory to make all the sprites.

Well its me imagining :P

   

Making something new and not using the original ROM and GROM takes time. Hacking/forking an existing emulator to have "all the ram" and "the speed" is probably not all that difficult.

 

"The next Parsec" is something much more time-consuming. One may have tons of ideas, but getting it done is something else. Maneuvering through an asteroid-belt is easy to envision, but nailing all the details and getting it to play is ... well, practice makes master.

 

Apart from more RAM, one could also imagine greater resolution, more colors, more and greater sprites, more and betters sounds (mp3, a piano emulator and what not) and support for scrolling, animation, timers, events, collision detection, physics, 3D, ... you name it, - yes, it could be controlled from something looking very much like TI Basic. Would you be able to port it to a real TI, - suppose not - maybe. Would it look like a TI, - it could, but why limit yourself when you have "all the ram", more than 4 sprites horizontally and ...

 

;)

 

I did work on a more game oriented simulator once ...

 

 

 
 



#6 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:32 AM

IF one is to convert TI basic, it would have to be something like RXB 2012 or maybe RXB 2017 where one would base it on basic as a foundation and then open up where there are limitations today. BUT, not make it so different that one lose all the know-how here.

Because what I think is that people here could get together to make a great "Parsec 2018" or something. I see all the creative power here and I wonder, WHAT IF...

I see there are people that have great programming skills, there are some with organising skills, graphic skills and so on. It would be cool to enlist all of this power to make "Parsec 2018" as a homage to the TI 99/4A and TI Basic, TI Ex Basic. To the old games, take graphics and some of the ideas and run wild with them. To do something like that one has to open up some of the limitations. Like you say...

"Apart from more RAM, one could also imagine greater resolution, more colors, more and greater sprites, more and betters sounds (mp3, a piano emulator and what not) and support for scrolling, animation, timers, events, collision detection, physics, 3D, ... you name it, - yes, it could be controlled from something looking very much like TI Basic."

 

It will probably just be a dream, but one can think and dream ;)

Parsec - Adventureland - Hunt the Wumpus into a "The adventure of TI994A! - The new and ultimate space game that kicks you into infinity space!"

It will probably just be a dream, but one can at least dream, in dreams anything can happen :P hehehe



#7 sometimes99er OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:59 AM

Maybe what you want is already here. RXB can use SAMS, so you've got access to plenty of RAM. Run RXB in Classic99, and you can turn on CPU Overdrive for more speed.

 

;)


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#8 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:12 PM

I know what you're asking for, though. I've thought about it a number of times myself. The problem is just that it takes a long time to create a language from scratch - yes, even one that has the syntax fleshed out. You can't just patch the existing ROMs and call it good, it's a from scratch endeavor.

The problem, for me at least, is I don't program in XB and can't really commit. There are quite a number of BASIC implementations for Windows, and they probably work well enough. Maybe a translator for one of then might be fun, that would be smaller...

#9 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:46 AM

Well is it possible to share the load in some way, so that many people can take part at make something like this?

Thinking about myself when I was young, this was how I started to communicate with the computer - programming. I stopped at Pascal and is now more into digital art. But I loved to make/program stuff (creativity). So that is my view into the computer world today - digital art. Did some programs making art on TI, but way to cumbersome to do it. So it was not much. Got a Amiga and a drawing programme - new world opend up. Today I am on drawing-pad and Paint shop pro. Just discovered Krita for my drawing.pad - cool! But I LOVE my old TI 99/4A. It was a super computer that had way to few people it compared to its power (at its time).

 

http://www.photosigh...id=142480&ver=1

(Not a drawing, resent photo)

 

So there might be a marked for something like this. The upside is that one would have many people knowing Basic/EX Basic, also there are old books to lean on. Then compilers and lots could be added to this. Hmmm, it should/can be a bridge from the old TI Basic into 2017. Just looked at games made for the TI, new games. And it makes me wonder, would could they do if they had less limitations? I see some struggle with memory space or lack, numbers of sprites or speed. So they have the know-how to make a game, but have to struggle with different limitations. Imagine what kids of today would do with this freedom? Basic is an easy way into the world of computers and also a road into other programming langos.

So in that sense, there is a need.

What could we ALL do to make "EX Basic 2017" for a modern PC? Is it possible to share the work for a modern EX Basic of 2017?

Other thoughts by other people?


Edited by oddemann, Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:47 AM.


#10 Sinphaltimus OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:13 AM

I know what you're asking for, though. I've thought about it a number of times myself. The problem is just that it takes a long time to create a language from scratch - yes, even one that has the syntax fleshed out. You can't just patch the existing ROMs and call it good, it's a from scratch endeavor.

The problem, for me at least, is I don't program in XB and can't really commit. There are quite a number of BASIC implementations for Windows, and they probably work well enough. Maybe a translator for one of then might be fun, that would be smaller...


A "C" compiler for TI-Basic that only uses a special library restricting it to what can be compiled?



#11 TheBF OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:16 PM

A "C" compiler for TI-Basic that only uses a special library restricting it to what can be compiled?

 

C as the output language of a compiler has been known to work very well.  

That's a good idea. Not that simple to make but it would perform well I think.

 

Doable with something like YACC/BISON or those kind of programs I should think.



#12 TheBF OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:17 PM

Looks like we need some BaCON.  

 

http://www.basic-converter.org/



#13 PeBo OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:27 PM

If I was to pick a 80's era BASIC that I'd like to use in Windows it would have to be GFA BASIC from Germany's GFA Systemtechnik and released for the Atari ST. I can't imagine anything that couldn't be done with that language, and the compiler produced commercial quality output.

 

The structured format also made it very intuitive for me to pick up C a few years later. Anyway if you know TI BASIC or XB, GFA is a very easy language to learn (although the absence of line numbers might take some getting used to)

 

Also while it's undergone so many changes from it's inception that it doesn't even bare a resemblance to BASIC anymore, Microsoft's Visual Basic is actually a very good choice.

 

Seriously though, C++ is not so foreign - any BASIC programmer could pick it up easily,

 

There are many many modern choices on which an old fart BASIC programmer can comfortably hang his hat!



#14 TheTIGuy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:46 PM

What is this C++ you speak of? I am still trying to get something working in C!



#15 TheBF OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:04 PM

 

 

Seriously though, C++ is not so foreign - any BASIC programmer could pick it up easily,

 

 

 

I think C++ objects and object libraries are a pretty big mind shift for a BASIC programmer.

If you just want to use C++ as a C compiler then it gets a little more straightforward, but even still, handling strings and arrays as pointers can be challenging for a newbie C programmer.

 

Python would be a little bit closer would it not?

 

And if a TI-BASIC library can be added to BACON or something like it, you have your C++ compiler (GCC)  and let people program in a BASIC dialect.



#16 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:05 PM

Yeah, like said above -- the market, such as it is, already has solutions. It's just people like us want the solution that we already know. ;)

 

I've got another friend years ago who asked me to do the same thing, but for Applesoft. ;)

 

It's all actually good ideas, and I do think that I'd personally like them better than the existing BASIC solutions, full as they are of modern programming concepts, but I also know I'd never use them.

 

I personally wasn't thinking of a true compiler, myself, but rather an interpreter that could embed the code for distribution. ;) 

 

One of the issues that I was envisioning had to do with how to deal with extensions. So for instance, let's say you go with the Extended BASIC model. You get it all done and working, so what do you extend? I think the first thing would be the size of the screen, since 32x24 characters is kind of small. So sure, implement a CALL SCREENSIZE(rows,cols) and resize the screen. Or maybe a CALL SCREENMODE(). That's not too hard. Add RGB support to CALL COLOR - no worries - SCREENMODE could also take the color depth of the new screen. CALL PLAY("MEDIA.MP3") to play media files - great!

 

In truth the trickiest part I didn't figure out was how to redefine characters when you're in the alternate screen modes -- that is, what does CALL CHAR() look like? You have to be able to represent characters -- to be useful they would be potentially large characters in a deep bitdepth. I sort of glossed over it in my thinking with some kind of data loading mechanism... but that was as far as the thought experiment got.



#17 Sinphaltimus OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:16 AM

I'm going to swing slightly off topic here.

These guys here http://thecompany.pl
Take Amiga game titles and package them in to self executing exe files. All components of an emulator and system configurations are packaged in each title. So when you run the game, the emulation runs and starts the game. The end user isn't exposed to the emulator, the end user doesn't need an emulator to play these games on their pc.

I would love to see a basic/xb/forth/rxb/xb256/cartridges/dsk
Packager/compiler.

Amigas come in all shapes and sizes and roms and chipsets. Not so much for the TI. A prepackaged decked out TI with f18a integration virtualized.

Take your program, packaged with this new compiler/packager and get an exe that just runs the cart/program/dsk straight away. No TI title screen or press 2 or anything. Double click the exe and play the game/program as if it were ported natively to pc but it's just hidden emulation.

This would expose a broader audience to the TI and the work still being created on it without anyone ever having to worry about how to get it working.

#18 oddemann OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:04 AM

Call Char...

First one need to define screen size... And I dont think one need to go like 4K, but even 800 would be a great improvment.
I think i would go Call Char and Call Char1 to 4. And then 1 is double size and so on. Some flexible way to accommodate for higher resolution. I think this is just need a definition of what the foundation should be.

But lets play... (Prologue to a the possible "TI Basic 2018")
Just a brainstorm where nothing is wrong and nothing is right. But where one could dump any idea and then from it all MAYBE make something together. MAYBE! But in the beginning one need to just throw in what ever and later sort out and figure out what would work and not work.

First part is brainstorming where nothing is right or wrong, but an idea that might spark other important or great ideas!
Dreamer: think of times when you were day-dreaming, fantasising, or allowing your imagination to run free and unfettered.

 

Second part! After all kinds of ideas has been found, then what would be realistic to make work and have in the "TI Basic 2018"?

- Realist: define a plan and what needs to be done in order to make "TI Basic 2018".

 

Last part, to be critical to the plan. What could stop it all from coming into existence? What resources are needed and are they present? Plain and simple, is it possible to make it with what we have?

- Critic: its not about being negative, but making sure that the plan is a realistic one and having identified future problems before they become a problem. At least as many as possible.

 

 

< ******** > ... < ******** >

 

Dreaming/Brainstorming - Lets define the frame that is needed, what needs to be "opened up" to be able to use the power of a modern PC. Or the wish list for "TI basic 2018" So this is the Dream part and NO realist or critic at this level. Just mad and crazy brainstorming:

 

- Who do we make "TI Basic 2018" for?

Here I am selfish and lazy, I don't want to learn a completely new programming lango and I would like to expose my kid for this as a way to express creativity. I know there are better programming langos, but I managed to learn Basic on my own. Reading some books and typeing in prgrams from magazines. So Basic is just that - Basic, so easy that most people will get it. Also a tribute to my "first love", even if it told me, "Don't understand", when I type my name to it, the very first ting I did on my TI 99/4A! lol.

 

- Access to more RAM

 

- Access to CPU and GPU power 

 

- Access to higher resolution!

I think that around 1000 to begin with would make a huge difference, I think that is a question for the ones that knows what is easy to set up as a foundation for the program. Also here one could have a pick of formats maybe. So that one could make "old looking" games, but have all the other powers in the program. Even if one lands on 1000-800 something, one could use the same idea of how to use graphics on screen with larger blocks. So a "old looking" game has 80 blocks and lower resolution. Maybe 80 could be a standard and the differences is the resolutions in the block depending on the main resolution. Even if you get better/higher resolutions, you would get about the same placement on the screen as on the old TI. So in general 40/80 blocks would still work.

 

- Access to jpg and other picture formats.

Maybe not all but a few PNG, JPG, TIFF and with them I would at least be free to convert any file format into one of them.

 

- Access to different sound formats.

MP3 and other compressed formats

 

- Access to CD, Memory card (storing media)

 

- Access to a complier or something, to make EXE or other format to be able to share a program.

- New commands!!!

Call MP3

Call JPG

Call HTML

- How to keep it "open" to make it grow as needed?

 

Last but most important, who would be willing to be a part of this?

And identify skills people have and what they are willing to do?

I know that I am NOT going to program such a programming lango, that is way over my know-how. BUT I can do graphics, make documentation, pictures, manage the project and keep information flow. Web page or what ever other "slave job" needs to be done.

So I ask you, Tursi to begin with. Since I know you have done something like this.
"If you where to do something like this, how many people would you imagine had to be a part of this? What skills are needed?
I know you have don't it ALL. I don't know everyone else and there skills.
And to everyone else, with or without same skill set - If you want to be a part of this, what would you love to do or what is your stronger skills. And also what would you not want to do?

Right now I can start up this maybe project and make documents of the beginning process and then if/when we get to finis the last part - The Critic. THEN we can make a decision if this has the "right of life!"?
And having read the evolution of Classic99, maybe this project is "TI Basic 2025!"

So, who would like to be a part of this?

(Not to do the project, but to start the project and see if it has "right of life!")

So, please if you would like to be a part of something like this. Put in a word or two.

If there is interest I will start to draw up a guidelines to do "Dreamer-Realist-Critic" and IF we get to the end of that we have a structure to work from and who is on board to make "TI basic 2018".

Mvh
Odd K.

PS! I have also been looking around for "modern" basic programs, so I know this is not needed. But maybe NOW is the right time for a really good Basic program as we now have so many more people using the computer and the ONLY right way to do it is the TI way :-D  hehehehe Maybe this is the start of Big-soft, the world leader  :-D Yes I am bias :twisted: 
 


Edited by oddemann, Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:08 AM.


#19 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:24 PM

So I ask you, Tursi to begin with. Since I know you have done something like this.
"If you where to do something like this, how many people would you imagine had to be a part of this? What skills are needed?


That's a really open ended question to which there's really no wrong answers. If /I/ was to do it, I'd probably do it by myself, at least for the Windows port. You'd likely want a cross-platform project, though, for that an expert on each platform is nice to have.

You'd want skills in software development, text parsing, graphics and sound, scripting and interpreters, and packaging software.




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