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ABBUC Software Competition 2018


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#76 1NG OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 4:17 AM

 

You can create Get Up! 2,3,4,5...250 etc. (like FIFA17, 18 etc.) and change only title screen or whatever (or even nothing) and release it (entering this contest is not necessity for releasing your stuff or is it?). Only that then you can't participate in this ABBUC contest with its rules. That's all. There are tens of new games for 8bit Atari every year and only small fraction participate in this contest. 

Yes of course. Not releasing at the Asc is a decision everybody can make anytime.

Only Asc gets smaller by time. But how to support the programmers/artists and in this way the Atari? Or support the best game of the year? (like in the KAZ competition)



#77 freetz OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 5:32 AM

@1NG: Feel free to put up all these suggestions to vote at the GA. If they get majority support, I'm fine with it.

But I'm out of the discussion when you keep saying that we are "hiding" behind the rule as if we had a sinister motive, when you insist that money was the reason although I've explained at length the rationale behind our decision.

We knew right from the start that the decision wouldn't be liked by everybody, especially the programmers involved (which is perfectly understandable) and that's why we were saying already in the first e-mail to you that we can and should discuss about this at the GA. And I'm sitting here in the middle of the Swedish countryside, halfway through my annual leave with just mobile phone internet. Do you really think that in that situation I bother about whether anybody gets a cup or 50 Euros or whatever?

 

I (and all others involved) do this in my free time because I take the tasks seriously that I have been voted to do by club members at a time when nobody wanted to do this job - because it's part of my hobby, not because I want to make other peoples lives miserable. If I did not take it seriously, it would be a waste of my (due to three kids under four years very limited free) time. If you disagree with our decisions, come up with concrete constructive criticism and we can take it from there. But do not expect us to change the rules on the fly just because you or anyone else says so. If you would handle it that way, fine. I (honestly!) don't mind passing over the position of head of the software ressort to you if you want.



#78 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 6:04 AM

I think this discussion is a little bit irrational...I mean the rules are clear and everyone who wants to participate knows them. Look at Matosimi- he was able to write game in a FEW DAYS and his submission was still accepted. I think it's all about fun and creativity, making the same game again but with changed graphics is not very creative.
That's probably the psychological trait of 8BitJunkie that he wants to improve his programs ( vide all the versions of Dimo's Quest), but I think there's no doubt that the game doesn't meet the standards. (I might be wrong since I haven't seen the program, 8BitJunkie and 1NG please provide us with screenshots)


Edited by gorgh, Fri Aug 3, 2018 6:05 AM.


#79 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 7:05 AM

of course I don't mean that there was no effort during making the game, it's great you folks doing something new for Atari, thank you, I just wanted to share my opinion, but I understand it could be a little bitter decision, I would feel the same I it was my game that was revoked


Edited by gorgh, Fri Aug 3, 2018 7:05 AM.


#80 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 7:50 AM

@emkay: The members have (at some point, before I was even an ABBUC member) decided on these rules, probably for a reason. They are not misleading, they rather do not cover every possible situation. You have the same thing with laws in real life, and that's why you have judges or jurys to make decisions. Just because you don't like a decision of a judge or a jury, would you seriously suggest to have a vote by all citizens on that matter (apart from the fact that we don't have current e-mail addresses from more than half of the 400+ ABBUC members)? Maybe every time someone doesn't like a decision? Good luck with that.


You know the difference of some legal law treatment and what happens inside a "Computerclub" .
As I know the games just by some description, they were clearly different. They didn't just change the title and name it a new program. There have been done more than significant changes. In commercial games you found sometimes less changes ...
Not sure , what had been the cause for the decision. But it seems, it's not caused by the rules.
Anyways, the final vote of all participating programs would show, whether the programs were really better or not.

#81 8Bitjunkie OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:01 AM

a) I mean the rules are clear

b) making the same game again but with changed graphics is not very creative

c) That's probably the psychological trait of 8BitJunkie that he wants to improve his programs ( vide all the versions of Dimo's Quest)

d) there's no doubt that the game doesn't meet the standards.

Gorgh, actually, I was already done with the discussion. But since you have addressed me directly, you will get an answer ;-)

a) That is the point. The rules are NOT clear. The German rules said: "Weiterentwicklungen bereits veröffentlichter Programme, wenn dadurch das Programm wesentlich [erweitert oder] verändert wird"  (submission of an already existing program if it has been [extended or] altered in a significant way.) Key Words are  "wesentlich verändert" ("altered in a significant way"). In my opinion, the game was ALTERED enough to be considered as "significant". Other people may come to a different opinion - and that's perfectly fine for me. But - as freetz stated himself that this rule is not precise enough to go with it in future -  you should precise the rule FIRST before ruling a program out. Again, that's only my opinion...  and that is the only point I want to talk about. The game itself would surely be awarded last place as before, as it is only a very tiny game so who cares...


 

b) that may be... but that is not the point for ruling a game out. "Does it make (more) fun" is the question. or "is it worth to be played"...

c) you are right. I have a vision of how "Dimo's Quest" should be, and it is still a work in progress. From time to time  I share a milestone. Is that a bad thing?

d)  which "standards" should GetUp!2 not met? There is no such thing as a "standard" in the rule set...

So, hopefully. we can all go back to business again... :-D

 


Edited by 8Bitjunkie, Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:09 AM.


#82 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:15 AM

a) That is the point. The rules are NOT clear. The German rules said: "Weiterentwicklungen bereits veröffentlichter Programme, wenn dadurch das Programm wesentlich [erweitert oder] verändert wird"  (submission of an already existing program if it has been [extended or] altered in a significant way.) Key Words are  "wesentlich verändert" ("altered in a significant way"). In my opinion, the game was ALTERED enough to be considered as "significant". Other people may come to a different opinion - and that's perfectly fine for me. But - as freetz stated himself that this rule is not precise enough to go with it in future -  you should precise the rule FIRST before ruling a program out. Again, that's only my opinion...  and that is the only point I want to talk about. The game itself would surely be awarded last place as before, as it is only a very tiny game so who cares...

 

b) that may be... but that is not the point for ruling a game out. "Does it make (more) fun" is the question. or "is it worth to be played"...

c) you are right. I have a vision of how "Dimo's Quest" should be, and it is still a work in progress. From time to time  I share a milestone. Is that a bad thing?

d)  which "standards" should GetUp!2 not met? There is no such thing as a Standard in the Ruleset...

So, hopefully. we can all go back to business again... :-D

 

Maybe I didn't express myself too clearly, sorry
a) Yes, that's debatable whether the game is changed significally but I think the decision is in the hands of ABBUC, so we should respect that, alhough if they would have decided otherwise I wouldn't have anything against it. I think you should really post a screenshots or a video (better option) of the game, then everything should be clear.
b) Again, I didn''t want to offend you, I'm just trying to figure out what was the reason behind this particular rule.
c) Nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong. It's great that you are trying to improve your games, you got my sword.
d) Yes, "standard" was a wrong word, I meant "rule". The game itself most likely meets the standards of a good game, that's for sure.
Please show us the game so we could decide for ourselves


Edited by gorgh, Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:17 AM.


#83 8Bitjunkie OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:52 AM

Please show us the game so we could decide for ourselves

Have fun...

Attached File  Getup!2.atr   130.02KB   74 downloads



#84 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:55 AM

thank you, much improved gameplay, great game, but yes it's essentially the same :)



#85 8Bitjunkie OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 8:59 AM

thank you, much improved gameplay, great game, but yes it's essentially the same :)

Yeah, and that is exactly the point: i think "much improved gameplay" is a significant change - and you dont't think so, and that's fine also .

But the rule does not clearify that... 
It's that simple indeed... ;-)


Edited by 8Bitjunkie, Fri Aug 3, 2018 9:00 AM.


#86 freetz OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 9:46 AM

@8bitjunkie: Thanks for sharing, that really helps everyone to come to a thorough conclusion (and might help to put conspiracy theories like emkay's to rest).

However, I didn't say that the rules _have_ to change. They have to change if members want to eliminate any subjective interference by the organizers. But that would mean to either allow any program or not allow any kind of "sequel". As soon as you specify conditions, you will have subjective decisions. And I would decide again like this in a similar case, and maybe in some cases we would even be on the same side.
But I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone comes up with a bullet-proof clause which goes a middle path and does not leave anything to subjective decisions.
However, please bear in mind that opening up the contest to any kind of submission would also allow cases such as "Game Harry" mentioned above. Or (to stick with my own simple game) "Floppy Bird 3" with different stones and background colors. If that's what the members want, then, as I said, I'm fine with it.

#87 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 9:56 AM

@8bitjunkie: Thanks for sharing, that really helps everyone to come to a thorough conclusion (and might help to put conspiracy theories like emkay's to rest).


You actually put "conspiracy" in ;)
I was more about the theory that you decided on a trivial matter, and I seem to be right there. I'd bet, if only the 1st Level of the game looked more different, it was allowed to take part.
What do you expect from Atari Software this days? A such upgraded game, and it DOES look and sound better, still looks like Atari . It's not a PC that runs software faster and better after the PC became faster and better ...
Most Text adventures looked the same. Mostly a black background and some white text on it. It's the content that made the difference...

But, hey, now that the game has been released, the discussion is obsolete.

Edited by emkay, Fri Aug 3, 2018 9:56 AM.


#88 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 11:22 AM

The rule 2.3.1 (which was quoted in post #81 ...significant change of a program...) might be somewhat unclear, subjective, etc., but therefore rule 4.1 exists which more or less says, that if the leader of the Abbuc software contest is unsure if a game can take part in the contest or not (i.e. if there have been significant changes or not), he will decide it together with the boss of Abbuc. And thats what Frederik did !! He did not decide alone that the game cannot take part in the contest, he decided it together with Wolfgang Burger (boss of Abbuc, 1st chairman) and Alfons Kluepfel (2nd chairman)...

 

Here is a quote of this rule:

 

"4.1 The head of the ABBUC software resort checks each submission regarding the conditions laid out in section 2. In cases of doubt, a decision is made together with the chairman of ABBUC whether the program is accepted or not."


Edited by CharlieChaplin, Fri Aug 3, 2018 11:32 AM.


#89 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 1:34 PM

Here is a quote of this rule:
 
"4.1 The head of the ABBUC software resort checks each submission regarding the conditions laid out in section 2. In cases of doubt, a decision is made together with the chairman of ABBUC whether the program is accepted or not."


Yeah, we know we have hundreds of participants every year, so the decision gets really hard.

#90 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 1:35 PM

And we don't need new people doing new stuff, growing year by year, even a little...

#91 Poison OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 1:36 PM

Rules are old, it should be actualised for 21st century and for new possibilities of our great computinnyters ;-)



#92 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 1:49 PM

Not that it matters but maybe a new category should be added...

 

One where games/utilities/software that are remade such that by all accounts the game play, utility, function or fun of a program is so greatly changed/improved for the better that something unplayable or so badly hard to control or slow becomes seamless, fast, useful, a joy, or fun to use and enjoy.

Should merit an award....

 

Such improvements have been made in the past that things I disliked are now my favorites! For me to change a dislike to a love is monumental...

 

Give that a thought, maybe an emergency meeting and a quick scan of the years for a quick nomination of such works be in order?

 

It's such re-coding that many dreams have become realized and enjoyment or what should have been are found!



#93 darwinmac OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 2:50 PM

I am only replying as a humble member of ABBUC. I am a member so I can support the competition. As an English speaker in the US, the magazine is of limited interest to me.

I can understand both sides of the discussion. I am sure ABBUC does not want entries with simply new levels or minor tweaks. However, @8bitjunkie definitely improved the graphics and control in Get Up! 2.

Myself, I lean towards it being an improvement to the original game that was created. The rule is not clear, but it is hard to account for every situation.

As a fan of his games, I certainly hope that @8bitjunkie continues to create games for the contest.

Bob C

Edited by darwinmac, Fri Aug 3, 2018 2:52 PM.


#94 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:23 PM

The essence is that this contest is aiming to make it attractive to create new software to people. The rules about it have been set to give the "jury" the possibility to put actual and related facts in . And one fact is that we have 2018. Almost 40 Years after the Atari appeared. A small community with a loose sense of what's needed, is doing some stuff for everyone's personal interest.
One of that personal stuff is the distracting music, that is liked by most of them. Well, I think that the music in Get Up is a step into the right direction... and ATTRACTING direction!!!
And, the "Jury" acts the same, as musicians on the Atari do: They distract people from doing new stuff.

Edited by emkay, Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:35 PM.


#95 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:29 PM

I feel pity for freetz and the crew, that's just their extra activity in a spare time

#96 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:34 PM

I feel pity for freetz and the crew, that's just their extra activity in a spare time

Spare time ? Too less time, fits better. Judging on a product by a limited time shouldn't result in a wrong decision. If there isn't time to check it all, they always had to feel free to put the software to the contest and to let the voters decide about the quality of the production.
What's so hard about it?

#97 gorgh OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:53 PM

If I were in that position I would seriously consider quitting after all that critique. They are just doing their job, without personal interest, it's the abbuc which established the contest in a first place, and it's their rules. What's so hard to understand here? I feel honored that I can make a software that will be awarded with the valuable prizes. It's the gratitude that should motivate us, not the critique.
End of topic from me. Maybe I shouldn't join the discussion in the first place but i have this psychological trait of respect to authorities.

#98 8Bitjunkie OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:57 PM

I feel pity for freetz and the crew, that's just their extra activity in a spare time

Well, the designers of games and tools are doing it in their spare time as well ;-) 



#99 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 3:59 PM

If I were in that position I would seriously consider quitting after all that critique


You mean what people like you do every time ?


Reality sometimes can be hard, but doing stuff for the Atari is no business of tomorrow. It's a hobby , nothing else.

#100 8Bitjunkie OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 4:02 PM

As a fan of his games, I certainly hope that @8bitjunkie continues to create games for the contest.

 

thanks for playing my games, I will surely continue developing games for A8... ;-)
If you like my games, maybe you will like my music as well?

www.youtube.com/retrojunkiesband

 


Edited by 8Bitjunkie, Fri Aug 3, 2018 5:01 PM.





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