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#1 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:58 PM

There is plenty of games, game adaptations here done, but not tested enough - for instance not played until end.

http://atari.8bitchip.info/fromhd.php

What is tested thoroughly has C in last column - and there is not that much with C on page.

I pointed on it many times on diverse places, on page self. And nothing improves in that aspect.

So, we are now at point that I will not do it anymore like this. I receiving e-mails, PMs in forums, where people asking to do some new games, but where are those who want to test it ? Worst is that even those who asked for some, and got it are not in mood for some serious test - I getting something like: It worked fine.  I mean worked 5 minutes, I guess.

 

Now, some may say: you do it, so you need to test it all before release. Sure ... I can say for them: you are free to do it so, I do my way. This is community 'business' - if you want to get, give something. Well, I gave enough over 10 years, and got in back really not much.

All in all, I'm afraid that this will be over, I will finish same as others finished this, years ago. There are about 50 games in my workfolder, partially done. But can not find motivation to do it like this anymore. I need to play a lot to reach some points, where disk access, manual protection can arrive, and only then can see is some more patching, fixing needed.

In other words, testers are needed. People willing to sacrifice time, to respond fast if possible.

 

It's up to you Atari folks.


Edited by ParanoidLittleMan, Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:00 PM.


#2 Justin Payne ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:18 PM

Hopefully something has happened to cause the straw to break the camel's back. I appreciate all that you do and if you need help testing your work,I'm more than happy to help out. Do you need this tested on real machines? If so, I might just need a bit of time. My Falcon is currently in pieces since I need to recap it but if this can be tested using an emulator, just let me know and I can help out immediately. 

 

What I would suggest is tell me what are your general requirements for testing. Also, if people find bugs, how do you want those bugs reported to you. I can give you a simple template that we're used for years to report bugs. It would be useful to have a bug database but that might be more than you need.


Edited by Justin Payne, Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:25 PM.


#3 fedepede04 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:26 PM

i know where you come from, and i perfectly understand you,

on some site i can see how much my programs have been downloaded, but so little feedback, i also many time have wanted to quit making programs to the Atari community, but i guess the only reason why i keep doing it, is because i do like to code.

 

if it was not because i am working on some stuff my self, then  i would like to test some of you games, but i just don't have the time...

but i like to say to all, if you not keep supporting people doing those thing, then in the long run they will stop doing it, because we also have family and friends that we can spend our time on.



#4 oracle_jedi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:46 PM

@OP

 

I've downloaded a number of the games from your site and I appreciate the work that goes into making them available.

 

I only got back into the ST about a year ago so I have not had alot of time to experiment with a lot of games.

 

We talked a while back about Prince of Persia - the problem with the health not being restored.  I know you fixed that in a subsequent release.  Thank you.

 

I agree its impossible to test every game to its fullest extent.  Between bad cracks, missed protection routines, incompatibilities between TOS releases, PAL/NTSC timing issues and even undiscovered bugs in the original code, its impossible to know if any release is going to work as expected in all possible scenrarios.

 

Please keep up the great work, and I should let you know that Blood Money crashes if you achieve a high score.  

 

Thanks

 

Graham



#5 Osgeld ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:01 PM

I don't do 16 bit atari, I don't know who you are, but a call of "we need testers" after fussing about "its fine" what does one expect, in my previous life as a boring ass widget writer for a mostly farm based financial office we used to send out specific and detailed criteria on what we expected in test reports... even if it was just a lame excel macro or dbase widget 

 

I can only imagine a community based game development would need to produce similar expectations other than "test my game and report back in a meaningful way"

 

2c im out



#6 atarian1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:14 PM

I didn't realize this was happening. I am one of those people who like to play games, but I completely suck at them! So playing to the end would be a challenge for me even in a trainer mode. It's not so bad for shoot-em ups, but for strategy games, it can be tough because "you need this object to that object to advance" makes it hard to reach the end. Games that force you to start the level all over instead of continuing where you were also make it tough for me to advance to the end.

 

I will do my best to help out though. It will be tough to carve out time for this, but I want to see these hard drive adapted games (and ST programs in general) be preserved for the computer history archives. It seems like the ST is not appreciated enough in the computer history books compared to other platforms, so I don't want to see the excellent work you are doing stop.  Thank you for all the work you have done.


Edited by atarian1, Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:17 PM.


#7 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:33 AM

Thanx folks for your support and suggestions.

Indeed, some formular for feedback would be good, to make it easier to people - like that they can see what is expected. Harder question is where to put it. 'Ideal' would be to activate it right by download :)

Of course, it needs time to play, may be that months pass until someone catches time and manages to finish.

So, I think that I need to reorganize that page for DL, and put there some well visible reminders, in attractive form. Suggestions are welcome.

 

Yes, everybody has its genre of games what likes, what can play good. Myself like platformers, some shooters, even some adventures, simulations. Strategy is not my cup of tea. I need to fight enough against copy protections, poor code in games, TOS compatibility problems, so no more brain cells for some cyber war :-D Diverse trainers are practically a must for faster progress.

That's one of the reasons why we need that many people involve in this. Only that can assure that many, if not most of games will be really tested.

I tried to push this idea at AF, but it was never supported. Now, that forum is really low, and I'm done there, really. Huge waste of time - just look thread about EmuTOS there.

 

So, for now, I'm on thinking about motivation via some page reorganization and like.

Ataricrypt, where are you now ? :)



#8 Justin Payne ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:25 PM

So, my two cents.
Your end goal in this is to get these converted games play tested. You have a TON of games to cover so having people know who is testing what would be really helpful since you don't want cross coverage that doesn't have a heck of a lot of variation. What I mean by that is two people testing with the same hardware. Additionally, it's possible they've replaced TOS with something else. You'd want to know if that works or not. Ideally, you'd have someone sign up for the game, fill out the system & OS their testing with. Then periodically they report where they are and if they've found any bugs. Additionally, as 'the developer of this effort", you should also present suggestions on where people should look out for issues. That being said, one would generally design a webform that people would fill out but I suspect you're not a web developer so many someone with those skills could donate some time to create something for you. If not, they maybe people could just email you that info and you could post it on your site. It's manual but it still gets the job done.


Edited by Justin Payne, Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:10 PM.


#9 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:04 PM

I did myself actually all PHP code. So, I can do some webforms, and there are some in Game Archive section. And it is now simply disabled. Because spammers were most active there - what a surprise !

So, I will go for now with simple e-mail way. I don't expect some massive volunteerism - and I will be able to handle it manually, I guess. I can add some info about what games are already under testing - just by editing list by need.

"Replaced TOS with something else" - not sure why you write it. Only regular TOS 1.00-4.04 is supported. If it works on something else, be happy - that's all. I have already enough troubles to make it work on all TOS v. + TT, Falcon. You just live not enough long to satisfy everybody :)

 

I got some e-mails today, so things move ahead. Already changed page, and will do more in next days. Hard part is to write some short, clear for all guides, what cover most of expectable problematic situations.



#10 Justin Payne ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:23 PM

Ah, OK. If you clarify that the games only work with specific TOS's then that's good enough. I guess I was thinking if you were interested in knowing if you could launch the game under something like Geneva or MagiC. I'm not saying you HAVE to support it. Sometimes just saying it does/doesn't is enough to make people happy. When testing software you want to call out most of the known boundaries. One might think that it's easier to not call them out and then have testers tell the devs when it doesn't work but that's just a waste of back and forth. Out of my many years of testing software, there is one thing that is certain. Projects that don't have good requirements are going to be an unpleasant experience for all. It sounds like you're already thinking about the requirements so that's great! Let me know if you need help with that.



#11 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:24 PM

You see, that's the problem with Atari people. You do something and put it online, with text what describes on what it works. Then almost always comes someone with some question like: is it possible that it work on Falcon ? Very bad formulation - it is usually possible. Question is how much time it will cost. 

Like recent case with my direct WAV player (so without conversion before playback), what can play CDA format - "Thanx for that SW ... Can it play AIF files ?" . Now, what the Hell is AIF format ? You look after, and yes, it can hold CDA format too - and that's good, because whole player is for it. But endianess of AIF is just not good (despite is same as on Atari ST) - and player what is already on limit of 8MHz STE will not play it well. You explain all it, together with talk about parameters what must be specific (44100 Hz ... 16-bit) - but man who asked just disappears. Please folks, respect my time.

 

MagiC and all those extra Desktops, accelerators (SW and HW) are just not good for gaming.

There is much more than TOS version what can cause problems. Hard disk drivers, too optimistic people - someone complained that almost nothing works on his TT, and what was the cause: some mouse accelerator in AUTO folder. Funny thing is that same accelerator did not harm on STE. Then silly SW bugs, which appear only on specific HW, TOS versions.. And so on. This is not easy business. DR made it hard for programmers and for users, games (especially on TOS 2++)..

Requirements are described - any TOS v. Of course I count not here unofficial TOS versions like KaosTOS, EmuTOS. Minimal RAM. For older ones stays what hard disk drivers are supported - what is requirement in fact. And there is one important more: that user reads supplied README.TXT :) 

Now I need to sleep well, and tomorrow to put together some nice and short guide.



#12 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:23 AM

Considering form for submit:   here is what I done long time ago:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/atricl.php

That is linked to Atarilegend database in early test version, so works not now.

I will see can it be used now, with database of Game Archive. In any case, spammers will be there for sure, so need

to prevent them.



#13 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:33 PM

I don't do 16 bit atari, I don't know who you are, but a call of "we need testers" after fussing about "its fine" what does one expect, in my previous life as a boring ass widget writer for a mostly farm based financial office we used to send out specific and detailed criteria on what we expected in test reports... even if it was just a lame excel macro or dbase widget 

 

I can only imagine a community based game development would need to produce similar expectations other than "test my game and report back in a meaningful way"

 

2c im out

 

You don't do 16 bit Atari? Then pray tell, why are you here?  :)



#14 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:35 PM

To PPera - sorry for the troubles but want to you to know

how much your work is appreciated. I've downloaded multipe

games from your site.

 

Keep up the good work and thanks for supporting the Atari

community !!!   :)



#15 English Invader OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 PM

To PPera - sorry for the troubles but want to you to know

how much your work is appreciated. I've downloaded multipe

games from your site.

 

Keep up the good work and thanks for supporting the Atari

community !!!   :)

 

+1



#16 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:53 PM

I seem to recall that anytime someone reported a fault in one of your things you went off the rails and started attacking them, so really, what do you expect?

 

Anyway, the 'ST scene' is more concerned with fart-inflated textured blobs moving around in demos at 5fps than getting the games converted for HD. If it isn't a demo, nobody gives a rats ass. Which is partially why I gave up years ago and won't do any more myself.



#17 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:48 PM

I was playing Doodle Bug a couple days ago from your archive and it crashed after level 3 or 4.



#18 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 PM

I was playing Doodle Bug a couple days ago from your archive and it crashed after level 3 or 4.

Thanx for pointing on it. Would be good to know on what config you played it. I ask only usual: what Atari model (or emulator), which TOS version, what hard disk driver SW ?



#19 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:03 PM

I seem to recall that anytime someone reported a fault in one of your things you went off the rails and started attacking them, so really, what do you expect?

 

Anyway, the 'ST scene' is more concerned with fart-inflated textured blobs moving around in demos at 5fps than getting the games converted for HD. If it isn't a demo, nobody gives a rats ass. Which is partially why I gave up years ago and won't do any more myself.

This is about concrete releases, concrete games. There may be errors in mine code, in floppy images (even original STX ones) and errors in games self - as I already fixed even such errors. Those heated discussions were mostly about concept, approach to game harddiskification :)  Just look year of form for submission, linked couple posts above. That was rough concept for submission, presented at AF, asked for assist, never supported. It's time to test and fix as much possible. Not much good game left to deal with. After it may come even large archive with all games, for single file DL.



#20 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:53 AM

I seem to recall that anytime someone reported a fault in one of your things you went off the rails and started attacking them, so really, what do you expect?

 

Anyway, the 'ST scene' is more concerned with fart-inflated textured blobs moving around in demos at 5fps than getting the games converted for HD. If it isn't a demo, nobody gives a rats ass. Which is partially why I gave up years ago and won't do any more myself.

 

/sigh........



#21 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:09 AM

Thanx for pointing on it. Would be good to know on what config you played it. I ask only usual: what Atari model (or emulator), which TOS version, what hard disk driver SW ?

It was TOS 1.62 on my STE and HDDriver 10.10.  Thanks for all your work with the hard drive adaptions!



#22 English Invader OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:39 PM

Anyway, the 'ST scene' is more concerned with fart-inflated textured blobs moving around in demos at 5fps than getting the games converted for HD. If it isn't a demo, nobody gives a rats ass. Which is partially why I gave up years ago and won't do any more myself.

 

That certainly doesn't speak for me.  I am that elusive rarity: an ST Gamer.  I'm not into coding, music, demos or any of the things people are supposed to use an ST for.  I actually like gaming on the ST and prefer it to the Amiga.  I find it really annoying when people say gamers shouldn't bother with the ST because the Amiga is so much better.  It isn't.  It's just full of bombastic sound sampling and over-complicated desktop functionality.



#23 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:12 AM

 

That certainly doesn't speak for me.  I am that elusive rarity: an ST Gamer.  I'm not into coding, music, demos or any of the things people are supposed to use an ST for.  I actually like gaming on the ST and prefer it to the Amiga.  I find it really annoying when people say gamers shouldn't bother with the ST because the Amiga is so much better.  It isn't.  It's just full of bombastic sound sampling and over-complicated desktop functionality.

 

It's not the gamers, its the people in the scene who make things. There are many, many people with the ability to help convert all the games, but, as I said above, all they want to do is show brown-shaded, fart-inflated, textured blobs jerk around the screen at 5fps just to prove, you know, that the ST can do textured objects. Well, one, maybe two, but in slideshow mode, instead. Whoop-de-frickin-doo. 



#24 ParanoidLittleMan ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:23 AM

Funny, how almost all threads must derail in off topic, useless discussions.

I'm not interested in demos, did not see at all most. C.J. has right in that 'they wanted to show' - even game cracks started in most cases with some demo.

And funny thing is that at moment I work on my first ever (and last, almost sure) demo for Atari ST. Although, it is not about fancy screen effects and like.

And according to C.J. I'm already best demo coder in Atari scene - my videos at 25 or even 50 fps, with thousands of colors fulfill his criteria :-D



#25 Android8675 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:44 PM

Worked in testing at EA from 97 til 2005, I'd love to do some compatibility testing for you. Right now I can only offer testing on Emulators like Steem. I have a 1040STf and a STe in storage at the moment, but once I get them out next year I can certainly do more.

 

I'm not the best completionist, but I can at least ensure several hours of game play and do a good amount of compatibility testing. Drop me a note, I recommend starting a Discord group, it's a great way to keep in touch with a group.






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