tep392 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 What happens on a PAL 7800? Since it does not have the signature test. Mitch I don't believe it has been tested on a PAL 7800 yet. The console should just pass control to the XM after the self tests complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 If you want to rule out the signature check, it would be easy to just install Eckhardt's devbios or my SpeedBIOS (don't expect 2600 games to work). I can toggle between many different BIOS versions easily for testing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Yes, CPUWIZ saw the point I was trying to make. You could also test with the Asteroids BIOS since it is actually both NTSC and PAL not just PAL. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 We did a test were I replaced BIOS at $1C000 with a 16k game. Centipede. It still failed. Should have been no issue with the signature test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 Tep is correct. We've tried several BIOS types and just loading a game from the onboard flash, seems like a bank issue (possibly) and the Rev 2 was tested extensively on both NTSC and PAL systems. Rev 3 is a much different beast though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Keeping fingers tightly crossed for a software solution!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Tep is correct. We've tried several BIOS types and just loading a game from the onboard flash, seems like a bank issue (possibly) and the Rev 2 was tested extensively on both NTSC and PAL systems. Rev 3 is a much different beast though... How did the few XM protos that went out many years ago work without these current issues? Like the one Albert has for use at video game shows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Those were Rev 2's - completely different PLD, BIOS, no Bus divider... essentially a much different system, but had numerous instability problems and a lot of compatibility issues... Rev is a different design with a larger PLD with more logic, a much different BIOS and the bus is controlled in such a way that allows much better compatibility across the board. How did the few XM protos that went out many years ago work without these current issues? Like the one Albert has for use at video game shows? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 Hi everyone, sorry been a slow week, these back to back monster snow storms and just a few other things have eaten up my time. I just got in a brand new electronics bench from Global Industries so I'm putting it together and moving everything over to it to have the proper room and place for my tools and equipment. I am trying another BIOS Perry sent me just to keep trying from some different angles. I've got a test board heading out to him and Mark Friday so we've all got hardware in hand and can't hopefully just get this snag fixed so we've got the BIOS up and have eyes and ears on the board to start populating the other area's and then use the BIOS' built in testing functions to make sure everything is working correctly. So sorry nothing new to report so far this week, but just posting to keep the communications flowing. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Thanks for the update. Stay warm and dry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 Hi everyone.... just wanted to give an update: Hardware went off to Mark in the UK, another one to Perry was also shipped out and I have something coming back my way that is basically a plugs out exerciser of the entire XM board to try and resolve the remaining roadblocks. Found a few more minor errors and just built out a new electronics bench to make my work a lot easier. So I've been adding needed cut & straps to the design and updating the PCB design files. I have been running additional testing of games, so far everything is running but I still haven't tested SARA equipped games yet so I have that on the to-do list. I have a list of POKEY embedded games that will need to be tested as well to make sure the XM's handle them properly. I don't have an Xboard but when the time comes I will see about either obtaining one or if Mitch or someone else has one installed I would like to see how they get another with one another. The cartridge connectors will be arriving from Mouser in the next 2 weeks as well, then its just a matter of nipping off the 4 extra leads from them. (they are standard 36 pin edge connectors that meet the same specs as the 32 pin Atari versions with the same 8mm tails on them for the needed height for the cartridge connectors. So I just wanted to just post that things are still in progress and I didn't want to leave everyone in the dark for too long and repeat the mistakes from the past. 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I don't have an Xboard but when the time comes I will see about either obtaining one or if Mitch or someone else has one installed I would like to see how they get another with one another. I installed an Xboard last year. It actually didn't work in one of my 7800's, an early expansion port model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 I installed an Xboard last year. It actually didn't work in one of my 7800's, an early expansion port model. So.... are you saying it was just yours or are Xboards not early 84' 7800 compatible? So far all I've been testing on is early 84 and early 86 7800 modules with expansion ports on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 So.... are you saying it was just yours or are Xboards not early 84' 7800 compatible? So far all I've been testing on is early 84 and early 86 7800 modules with expansion ports on them. Don't worry about Xboard compatibility. The thing was a flash in the pan and 99.9 percent of atari 7800 users do not have, nor will they ever use an Xboard. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 So.... are you saying it was just yours or are Xboards not early 84' 7800 compatible? So far all I've been testing on is early 84 and early 86 7800 modules with expansion ports on them. I'm just saying that it didn't work well with my A1 s/n with expansion interface sample. The games ran, but some of the games would crash after a few minutes. It works perfectly in my A3 model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Don't worry about Xboard compatibility. The thing was a flash in the pan and 99.9 percent of atari 7800 users do not have, nor will they ever use an Xboard. I agree, don't go down that wormhole. If it doesn't work for the 10 people that have a xboard they are more than welcome to rip it out/ use a different 7800 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Don't like to discourage talks of compatibility, but reality and facts, help to place things in perspective. We're talking essentially testing a mod (XM), working with another mod (Xboard). The first piece alone, just getting (all/majority) 'vanilla' 7800 working with the XM, is quite the challenge. Enter the XBoard and this may throw us in an endless testing loop of a wild goose chase. The developer ran into some quirks, and others, including some additional items, that may/appears to perhaps been worked out. Nonetheless, that was a dozen years ago. We've come quite a ways in understanding 7800 hardware, and yet still have issues. When the XBoard was developed, some things we consider and know now, may have been overlooked and missed then. At what is arguably the height of its popularity, a survey was conducted. It demonstrated out of 65 people who answered, only 5 owned an XBoard, roughly 7.5% While nothing definitely conclusive found respecting root cause, it still doesn't negate that others, in addition to tep392 above, reported issues of the XBoard not working for them either. AtariAge users Allan as well as Schmutzpuppee, both reported it not working properly, after extensive troubleshooting and testing. Considering the facts of the low ownership coupled with the known reported issues, IMHO, it would be really wise to not be concerned with XBoard compatibility. Maybe if we had corporate size resources of teams, money, and time, but under the circumstances and facts we possess, it would very likely be an exercise in futility. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I bet a good percentage of people following this thread had never even heard of the xboard until seeing it here. I'd argue in that case, don't bother with it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammR25 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I'd go with what Perry said the last time this XM stuff came up in December. My idea was for the BIOS to check for the XBOARD and then disable any conflicting features to avoid possibility of hardware damage. Maybe even pop up a message to let the person know, just in case they have and XBOARD machine and don't realize it. I know there aren't many out there, but at least 50 were sold, so there's bound to be a few of them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Well, first let me correct my statement as I said it wrong... What I should've stated was: The XM is not Xboard hardware compatible - they cannot work side by side in the same console. The XM is Xboard software compatible - so those games that had been written/modified to use the Xboard capabilities would be compatible with the XM so that authors games would'nt be dead ended. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 okay, some rather surprisingly good news. I spent some extra $ and shipped out an XM board to Mark using Global Express and it actually arrived much faster than expected. So its going to be hooked up a hefty logic analyzer through the XMRAM pins which map (with the exception of the CS lines) more or less the same as the BIOS so this will give a good view of what is going on and hopefully get some answers to why we've been stuck with the BIOS not completing its loading. I am hopeful its just something stupid in my board layout or maybe something else that was just overlooked, it can be quickly rectified and we can just get back on track and move forward.... as soon as more news comes I'll post right up to everyone. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Right now I have 180 pre-orders of the XM's and judging by the interest, I think another 100 or more will be sold. I kinda figured around a 300 unit sale of them would be about where they'd go. Certainly there appears to be a much higher interest in this particular mod. Lets see what happens. Albert will be handling all of the new sales through the AA store so we'll get a better gauge by then. Don't like to discourage talks of compatibility, but reality and facts, help to place things in perspective. We're talking essentially testing a mod (XM), working with another mod (Xboard). The first piece alone, just getting (all/majority) 'vanilla' 7800 working with the XM, is quite the challenge. Enter the XBoard and this may throw us in an endless testing loop of a wild goose chase. The developer ran into some quirks, and others, including some additional items, that may/appears to perhaps been worked out. Nonetheless, that was a dozen years ago. We've come quite a ways in understanding the 7800 timing and hardware, and yet still have issues. When the XBoard was developed, some things we consider and know now, may have been overlooked and missed then. At what is arguably the height of its popularity, a survey was conducted. It demonstrated out of 65 people who answered, only 5 owned an XBoard, roughly 7.5% While nothing definitely conclusive found respecting root cause, it still doesn't negate that others, in addition to tep392 above, reported issues of the XBoard not working for them either. AtariAge users Allan as well as Schmutzpuppee, both reported it not working properly, after extensive troubleshooting and testing. Considering the facts of the low ownership coupled with the known reported issues, IMHO, it would be really wise to not be concerned with XBoard compatibility. Maybe if we had corporate size resources of teams, money, and time, but under the circumstances and facts we possess, it would very likely be an exercise in futility. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyAtarian Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Curt here is my Order Confirmation No: 2009929 Ralph Linne Order Confirmation from Legacy Engineering StoreRalph LinneThanks for shopping with us today!The following are the details of your order.------------------------------------------------------Order Number: 2009929Date Ordered: Wednesday 29 September, 2010Detailed Invoice:https://www.legacyengineer.com/storefront/index.php?main_page=account_history_info&order_id=2009929Products------------------------------------------------------1 x 7800 Expansion Module (PRE-ORDER) (7800XM1) = $89.99------------------------------------------------------Sub-Total: $89.99United States Postal Service (1 x 3.50lbs) (Priority Mail (2 - 3 days)):$9.40Total: $99.39Delivery Address------------------------------------------------------Ralph LinneBilling Address------------------------------------------------------Ralph LinnePayment Method------------------------------------------------------Credit Cards - Visa/Mastercard/AMEX/DiscoverMasterCard XXXXXXXXXXXX5152-----This email address was given to us by you or by one of our customers. If youfeel that you have received this email in error, please send an email toonline.sales@legacyengineer.com -----Copyright © 2010 Legacy Engineering Store. Powered by Zen Cart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) I bet a good percentage of people following this thread had never even heard of the xboard until seeing it here. I'd argue in that case, don't bother with it.I have heard of the Xband before. No, not the satellite tv broadcast. Someone mentioned it in a thread about the XM. No, again, not the satellite radio... Edit: dog gonnit, I read xboard as xband. Been toying around with an old tubular sw radio so "band" was stuck in my mind. My brilliant pun ruined... Edited March 28, 2018 by Kosmic Stardust 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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