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EclaireXL annual update


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#26 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 2:47 AM

We would not have Fuji logo either. How could we possibly secure it from the current license holder?

And KS has one huge disadvantage. Right now, here on forums, it doesn't matter if there is a progress in 3 days, weeks or months. Or next year, for that matter.

But go on KS, and be late 3 days, and a crusade forms condemning you and next 3 kins to hell for daring to be late 3 days with update. Dozen YouTube vids will pop up along with blog commentaries of scientific acumen rivaling the FlatEarthers or even POTUS Twitter account.

Nobody will care at that point that it's a freetime project not generating a cent of profit.

I am pretty sure, though that a press would cover it extensively - precisely because of the failed Ataco Box.

Then again , we'd actually have an actual physical board running, with some nice 3D demos, so that would substantially differentiate us from the forever-stigmatized box.

"And we really, really want it to happen" :lol:
Sorry, just could not resist :)

#27 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 2:17 PM

OK, so... nice to see some comments here :) . Perhaps I'm being too hasty.

 

@santosp: We can do runs in multiples of 5 right? I'd been planning on 10 or 20 and we didn't reach 10.

 

On the list of people who want to buy one I have:

Me:1
VladR: 1
Poobah: 1
Farb: 1
Almerian: 1
Grizaptimus: 1
917k: 1 (Did you really want one?)
 
So... 7.
 
I have four boards currently:
v2
v1
early prototype: No HDMI
earliest prototype: No HDMI, no cart/io board (I have unpopulated boards), soldering issues/broken trace issues on GPIOs.
I guess I could sell these.
v2:230USD + shipping, v1: 200USD + shipping, late prototype: 120 USD  + shipping, earliest prototype: 80 USD + shipping
Though I really probably should keep a v1 and a v2 (ideally the new one) to debug both core versions.
 
Electrotrains also said he could let his v1 go. I guess same price as my v1 though we need to check with him.
 
Its looking like the new ones will be 250USD + shipping.
 
So my proposal: 5 new ones (subject to @santosp), someone buys Electrotrains' v1 and someone buys my v2.
 
If anyone wants a cheaper option then the prototypes are also an option. I'll try to update to the latest core on the early prototypes before shipping but then... no updates from me so you'd need to know vhdl to backport the core updates yourself. Or just run it as is.
 
If we do make 5 new ones we again run the risk that we screwed up somewhere and they don't work. So while v2 seems 'better' in every way we might find there are issues, so it is in fact riskier.

Edited by foft, Wed Mar 7, 2018 2:18 PM.

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#28 Alfred OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 3:11 PM

Well if it will help speed things up, and if no one else wants them I'll take your v2 and Electrotrains V1.



#29 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 4:19 PM

 
early prototype: No HDMI

Regarding this one... just broke it, so forget that one! Desoldered the flash chip to try out the chip I'll use in the (potential) run... and ripped off the pads. Doh! Anyway forget the two early prototypes, they are not in a good state.



#30 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 4:22 PM

1. What exactly is the risk with the new boards ? If issue is found, isn't then just a question of updating the core, once bug is found ?

2. In case, the 5-board run is for some reason impossible, which board can you part with, that I could use for the development (especially for Antic 4x modes) ?

 

I was counting on the 20-board run to get my dev board...



#31 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 4:38 PM

1. What exactly is the risk with the new boards ? If issue is found, isn't then just a question of updating the core, once bug is found ?

2. In case, the 5-board run is for some reason impossible, which board can you part with, that I could use for the development (especially for Antic 4x modes) ?

 

I was counting on the 20-board run to get my dev board...

1) Hardware bug, we had to change the layout and chips slightly (some parts no longer made)

2) My v1 or electrotrains' v1



#32 Almerian OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 5:16 PM

I'm fine with one from the new run, knowing the risk and the price.
Now if three more would jump aboard, we could have a run of 10. 

 



#33 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 7, 2018 5:34 PM

1) Hardware bug, we had to change the layout and chips slightly (some parts no longer made)

2) My v1 or electrotrains' v1

Alright, can you keep the v1 and not sell it, before we know for sure next run happens ?



#34 KlasO OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 8, 2018 5:28 AM

I’m interested in getting one. 



#35 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 8, 2018 11:41 AM

So can I add Dub and KlasO to the list to make 9? Ill send pms.

I wasnt sure if Lord Thag or Firedawg want one, or if just expressing interest?

Also many thanks Alfred for your kind offers, will pm you too.

Were targeting 10 or better 15, to go ahead. Think it has to be a multiple of 5. If we are slightly off, eg 11,12,16 or 17 then we can fill 2 with a v1 and v2 (subject to buyer being ok with that).

#36 TheMontezuma OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:38 AM

I’m interested in (a new) one as well.



#37 Firedawg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 9:05 AM

I'm currently building two more 1088XEL's for friends that is taking up some time and money until the projects are completed.  When would the money be needed for the boards?

 

Mike



#38 Spaced Cowboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 11:16 AM

I got a little way into doing something similar (I got as far as getting the 6502 to run :) ) - but I was using a Z-turn board ($69) and the plan was to put the Atari-specific ports on a 2-layer simple-as-possible "motherboard" to keep costs down. I'd guesstimated about $40 for that. The Z-turn boards have a lot of I/O pins and come with the benefit of a built-in hard-macro DDR controller (and DDR!) as well as a hard-macro ARM that has fast access to the programmable logic. I think they're a great deal, and no I don't work there :) I've had a 1920x1080p display coming out of the HDMI connector as well - the fabric is *fast*.

 

Without wishing to be critical, because I really admire what you have done, going the route you are doing with the custom board for a modern FPGA seems pretty expensive, although I grant you that switching architectures halfway through a project is a royal pain where it hurts... Generally the distributors don't give good prices for recent chips unless you're in at least the thousands of parts realm, which is why it's generally cheaper to buy a board than to buy the chip that's on that board... Regardless, I'd still be jumping in to help with your project, even if I did have to use [ahem] VHDL :) if I wasn't busy expanding the PBI bus instead

 

All the best wishes for your future success :)



#39 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 2:09 PM

I'm currently building two more 1088XEL's for friends that is taking up some time and money until the projects are completed.  When would the money be needed for the boards?

 

Mike

 

Pretty soon I think. Though I'm wondering about making a few extra for people who want them later, since I had a trickle of interested people through the year afterwards. 



#40 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 2:20 PM

I got a little way into doing something similar (I got as far as getting the 6502 to run :) ) - but I was using a Z-turn board ($69) and the plan was to put the Atari-specific ports on a 2-layer simple-as-possible "motherboard" to keep costs down. I'd guesstimated about $40 for that. The Z-turn boards have a lot of I/O pins and come with the benefit of a built-in hard-macro DDR controller (and DDR!) as well as a hard-macro ARM that has fast access to the programmable logic. I think they're a great deal, and no I don't work there :) I've had a 1920x1080p display coming out of the HDMI connector as well - the fabric is *fast*.

Do you know the MISTer? I just got one of these, its using one of the Terasic dev boards (DE10 nano) which sells for 130USD vs 246USD for just the FPGA chip itself (https://www.digikey....3307-ND/3929193). Pretty crazy. That also has a fair bit of IO.

 

I prefer a standard 'bunch of gates' to an integrated hard cpu + a bunch of gates somehow. Feels more like a real standalone computer to me. I like that the IO is real, allowing things like light guns, joystick output, sampling using pots etc to work.

 

I did initially go down the breakout board route, making two breakout boards for the DE1. Then decided to make a main board which they could connect to. After that I kind of stalled, until Santosp turned up and did a lot of work on the layout of them to put them in this nice mini-itx form factor. 

 

So say if we made a 2 layer mini-itx board, which the DE10 nano slots into 2. The breakout board still has a lot on it. Level converters, atari ports, video dac, etc I think 40USD would be unlikely, certainly the ones I made cost me quite a lot more. Though I was really a beginner at pcb design at the time. Still have a lot to learn...


Edited by foft, Fri Mar 9, 2018 2:20 PM.


#41 Spaced Cowboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:43 PM

 

I prefer a standard 'bunch of gates' to an integrated hard cpu + a bunch of gates somehow. Feels more like a real standalone computer to me. I like that the IO is real, allowing things like light guns, joystick output, sampling using pots etc to work.

 

 

Fairy nuff. You can always not use the ARM chip though, and the Zynq comes with a fair amount of programmable logic. You can't quite ignore it completely because its part of the boot process, so you have to instantiate the SOC system, but that takes 0 gates AFAIK.

 

 

So say if we made a 2 layer mini-itx board, which the DE10 nano slots into 2. The breakout board still has a lot on it. Level converters, atari ports, video dac, etc I think 40USD would be unlikely, certainly the ones I made cost me quite a lot more. Though I was really a beginner at pcb design at the time. Still have a lot to learn...

 

 

The motherboard ought to be fine running at 3.3v, basically, right ? The only place you'd need to do level conversion is at the boundaries (PBI/Cartridge, SIO, maybe the joysticks). On my PBI bus extension, I'm using quickswitches which are $0.60 for an 8-bit automatic-bi-directional-by-pin level translation. I wasn't taking into account your VGA output (which I'll agree would push it higher, I was looking at an ADV7123 and those are ~$13 in quantity-1) because I was planning on using the provided HDMI :)

 

A Mini-ITX-size (15cm x 15cm) 2-layer board is $4.82 in quantity-10 from Seeed, and D-sub-9 sockets are available for $0.78 from Digikey but I don't know how much the SIO connectors cost :)  I think (modulo the VGA driver) I was being pretty generous, actually, although I haven't looked at your board in any great depth, so perhaps there are more custom things I'm unaware of   :)

 

 

Cheers

   Simon



#42 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:54 PM

Well essentially these are the parts: http://www.digikey.com/short/qpd0z2

Main things: FPGA 55USD, DAC: 10USD.. + all the misc connectors etc add up to about 140USD. Then boards aren't too bad, the major thing is assembly cost. But yeah there are definitely things we could cut back on to make it cheaper.

 

Index,Quantity,Part Number,Description,Customer Reference,Available Quantity,Backorder Quantity,Unit Price USD,Extended Price USD,
1,1,102-4000-ND,USB JACK 2.0, STANDARD B TYPE, 4,,1,0,0.75000,0.75,
2,1,1276-1045-1-ND,CAP CER 4.7UF 6.3V X5R 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
3,1,1276-1163-1-ND,CAP CER 15PF 50V C0G/NP0 0805,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
4,3,1276-6227-1-ND,FIXED IND 1UH 1.5A 60 MOHM SMD,,3,0,0.45000,1.35,
5,1,1450-1252-ND,IC SDRAM 256MBIT 166MHZ 54TSOP,,1,0,3.21000,3.21,
6,1,160-1579-1-ND,LED BLUE CLEAR 0805 SMD,,1,0,0.43000,0.43,
7,3,1N4148W-FDICT-ND,DIODE GEN PURP 100V 300MA SOD123,,3,0,0.18000,0.54,
8,1,296-37575-1-ND,IC REG BCK ADJ 0.6A SYNC SOT23-5,,1,0,1.43000,1.43,
9,1,296-9245-1-ND,IC GATE NAND 4CH 2-INP 14-SOIC,,1,0,0.43000,0.43,
10,1,311-1.00KCRCT-ND,RES SMD 1K OHM 1% 1/8W 0805,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
11,1,311-200CRCT-ND,RES SMD 200 OHM 1% 1/8W 0805,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
12,1,311-240CRCT-ND,RES SMD 240 OHM 1% 1/8W 0805,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
13,1,311-4.70KCRCT-ND,RES SMD 4.7K OHM 1% 1/8W 0805,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
14,1,311-523HRCT-ND,RES SMD 523 OHM 1% 1/10W 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
15,1,336-3908-1-ND,IC CLK GENERATOR 200MHZ 10MSOP,,1,0,0.92000,0.92,
16,6,399-7929-1-ND,CAP CER 0.047UF 25V X7R 0603,,6,0,0.12000,0.72,
17,3,399-9043-1-ND,CAP CER 0.022UF 25V X7R 0603,,3,0,0.10000,0.30,
18,1,475-1410-1-ND,LED GREEN DIFFUSED 0805 SMD,,1,0,0.33000,0.33,
19,1,475-1415-1-ND,LED RED DIFFUSED 0805 SMD,,1,0,0.33000,0.33,
20,3,490-3298-1-ND,CAP CER 10UF 4V X5R 0603,,3,0,0.16000,0.48,
21,1,490-9669-1-ND,CAP CER 4700PF 50V C0G/NP0 0603,,0,1,0.19000,0.19,
22,5,493-11737-1-ND,CAP ALUM 820UF 20% 6.3V RADIAL,,5,0,0.47000,2.35,
23,1,497-8346-1-ND,IC COMP QUAD LOW PWR 14TSSOP,,1,0,0.42000,0.42,
24,1,507-1806-1-ND,PTC RESET FUSE 6V 1A 1206,,1,0,0.21000,0.21,
25,4,507-1813-1-ND,PTC RESET FUSE 6V 500MA 0805,,4,0,0.21000,0.84,
26,1,507-1818-1-ND,PTC RESET FUSE 15V 100MA 0603,,1,0,0.16000,0.16,
27,1,535-9996-1-ND,OSC XO 50.000MHZ CMOS SMD,,1,0,1.58000,1.58,
28,1,544-3222-ND,IC FPGA 224 I/O 484FBGA,,1,0,53.30000,53.30,
29,1,568-1845-1-ND,IC I2C MUX 2CH 8-TSSOP,,1,0,1.46000,1.46,
30,1,587-1430-1-ND,CAP CER 2.2UF 16V X5R 0603,,1,0,0.12000,0.12,
31,2,609-1041-ND,CONN RCPT USB TYPE A FLAG PCB,,2,0,0.89000,1.78,
32,1,609-3956-1-ND,CONN SD CARD PUSH-PUSH SMD,,1,0,2.97000,2.97,
33,1,609-4614-1-ND,CONN HDMI RECPT 19POS SMT R/A,,1,0,0.77000,0.77,
34,1,644-1232-1-ND,CRYSTAL 27.0000MHZ 8PF SMD,,1,0,0.64000,0.64,
35,1,768-1007-1-ND,IC USB FS SERIAL UART 28-SSOP,,1,0,4.50000,4.50,
36,2,800-1743-5-ND,IC BUS SWITCH 32BIT CMOS 80QVSOP,,2,0,1.86000,3.72,
37,1,800-2194-ND,IC BUS SWITCH 10BIT HS 24TSSOP,,1,0,1.23000,1.23,
38,8,952-2262-ND,SIL VERTICAL PC TAIL PIN HEADER,,8,0,0.11000,0.88,
39,1,AD1580ARTZ-REEL7CT-ND,IC VREF SHUNT 1.225V SOT23,,1,0,1.66000,1.66,
40,1,ADC084S021CIMM/NOPBCT-ND,IC ADC 8BIT 4CH 200KSPS 10-MSOP,,1,0,2.67000,2.67,
41,1,ADV7125KSTZ50-ND,IC DAC VIDEO 3-CH 50MHZ 48LQFP,,1,0,9.47000,9.47,
42,4,AE10973-ND,CONN D-SUB PLUG 9POS VERT SOLDER,,4,0,0.65000,2.60,
43,1,CP-43514-ND,CONN JACK 4COND 3.5MM R/A,,1,0,1.06000,1.06,
44,1,CR0603-JW-331ELFCT-ND,RES SMD 330 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
45,1,ED10526-ND,CONN HEADER VERT 26POS GOLD,,1,0,0.40000,0.40,
46,4,ED10529-ND,CONN HEADER VERT 40POS GOLD,,4,0,0.48000,1.92,
47,2,ED1543-ND,CONN HEADER VERT 10POS GOLD,,2,0,0.28000,0.56,
48,1,ED2983-ND,CONN USB TYPE B R/A BLACK,,1,0,0.58000,0.58,
49,1,EG4314-ND,SWITCH ROCKER SPDT 5A 120V,,1,0,3.04000,3.04,
50,1,LM3671MF-2.5/NOPBCT-ND,IC REG BUCK 2.5V 0.6A SYNC SOT23,,0,1,1.43000,1.43,
51,1,LM3671MF-3.3/NOPBCT-ND,IC REG BUCK 3.3V 0.6A SYNC SOT23,,1,0,1.43000,1.43,
52,1,NC7SZ04M5XCT-ND,IC INVERTER SGL TINYLOGIC SOT-23,,1,0,0.44000,0.44,
53,2,P2.00KHCT-ND,RES SMD 2K OHM 1% 1/10W 0603,,2,0,0.10000,0.20,
54,2,P56GCT-ND,RES SMD 56 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,2,0,0.10000,0.20,
55,1,S3305-ND,CONN EDGE DUAL FMALE 30POS 0.100,,1,0,3.80000,3.80,
56,1,TC33X-502ECT-ND,TRIMMER 5K OHM 0.1W SMD,,1,0,0.28000,0.28,
57,13,Y1101CT-ND,RES ARRAY 8 RES 100 OHM 1506,,13,0,0.24100,3.13,
58,1,Y1102CT-ND,RES ARRAY 8 RES 1K OHM 1506,,1,0,0.28000,0.28,
59,2,Y1221CT-ND,RES ARRAY 8 RES 220 OHM 1506,,2,0,0.28000,0.56,
60,1,Y1271CT-ND,RES ARRAY 8 RES 270 OHM 1506,,1,0,0.28000,0.28,
61,5,Y1472CT-ND,RES ARRAY 8 RES 4.7K OHM 1506,,5,0,0.28000,1.40,
62,1,ZXTP05120HFFCT-ND,TRANS PNP DARL 120V 1A SOT23F-3,,1,0,0.65000,0.65,
63,1,1092-1147-ND,IC FLASH 128MBIT 104MHZ 16SOP,,1,0,3.15000,3.15,
64,31,399-1095-1-ND,CAP CER 0.1UF 10V X7R 0603,,31,0,0.02900,0.90,
65,1,609-2801-ND,CONN DSUB HD RCPT 15POS R/A SLDR,,1,0,2.80000,2.80,
66,1,MMBT2222ALT3GOSCT-ND,TRANS NPN 40V 0.6A SOT-23,,1,0,0.11000,0.11,
67,1,587-1242-1-ND,CAP CER 1UF 10V X7R 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
68,3,1276-2412-1-ND,CAP CER 22UF 6.3V X5R 0805,,3,0,0.23000,0.69,
69,5,587-1304-1-ND,CAP CER 10UF 6.3V X5R 0805,,5,0,0.17000,0.85,
70,2,445-11676-1-ND,CAP CER 100UF 6.3V JB 1206,,2,0,1.11000,2.22,
71,9,311-1.0KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 1K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,9,0,0.10000,0.90,
72,1,311-1.2KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 1.2K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
73,2,311-100GRCT-ND,RES SMD 100 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,2,0,0.10000,0.20,
74,7,311-10KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 10K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,7,0,0.10000,0.70,
75,4,311-15KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 15K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,4,0,0.10000,0.40,
76,2,311-2.4KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 2.4K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,2,0,0.10000,0.20,
77,2,311-2.7KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 2.7K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,2,0,0.10000,0.20,
78,4,311-22GRCT-ND,RES SMD 22 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,4,0,0.10000,0.40,
79,7,311-4.7KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 4.7K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,7,0,0.10000,0.70,
80,5,311-47KGRCT-ND,RES SMD 47K OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,5,0,0.10000,0.50,
81,5,311-560GRCT-ND,RES SMD 560 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,5,0,0.10000,0.50,
82,4,311-604HRCT-ND,RES SMD 604 OHM 1% 1/10W 0603,,4,0,0.10000,0.40,
83,3,311-75GRCT-ND,RES SMD 75 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,3,0,0.10000,0.30,
84,1,311-82GRCT-ND,RES SMD 82 OHM 5% 1/10W 0603,,1,0,0.10000,0.10,
85,8,399-1092-1-ND,CAP CER 10000PF 50V X7R 0603,,8,0,0.10000,0.80,

Edited by foft, Fri Mar 9, 2018 4:05 PM.


#43 Spaced Cowboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 3:57 PM

I don't think that link quite works - maybe lists aren't public or something. All I get is 15 different 1206 resistors :( in quantities 9,1,2,7, ...



#44 darwinmac OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 6:40 PM

Foft,

Whats the compatibility of the EclaireXL? Do you know yet? I have been interested in the project, but I was not sure if my hardware and cartridges would work.

Bob C

#45 dmsc OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 7:25 PM

Hi!

I don't think that link quite works - maybe lists aren't public or something. All I get is 15 different 1206 resistors :( in quantities 9,1,2,7, ...


Just tried, it works here. You need to press the "SUBMIT" button on the page to go to the full cart.

#46 Spaced Cowboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 7:38 PM

Hi!


Just tried, it works here. You need to press the "SUBMIT" button on the page to go to the full cart.

 

 

Good point. I ought to have tried that :)



#47 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 9, 2018 7:46 PM

Foft,

Whats the compatibility of the EclaireXL? Do you know yet? I have been interested in the project, but I was not sure if my hardware and cartridges would work.

Bob C

Compatibility is extremely high.  The actual hardware implementation is probably up there with Altirra emulator at this point.  I've tried dozens of demos on it, many of the later PAL ones which rely on precise mid scanline changes, etc.



#48 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 PM

The boards are on order, so we'll have these in a month or so  :)

 

I ordered several extra so if anyone else is interested please send me a pm.



#49 foft OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 22, 2018 1:54 PM

These boards have been built successfully and just shipped out.

 

I've listed the spare boards on the marketplace, so if you know anyone else who wants one please do let them know.

http://atariage.com/...stem-eclairexl/



#50 Gandor OFFLINE  

Gandor

    Moonsweeper

  • 370 posts
  • Location:41005

Posted Tue May 22, 2018 4:02 PM

I am interested in one


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