C64 - A reappraisal 2017

[Heaven/TQA]

Yeah they are loud.... like Competition Pro

[Gunstar]

 

Yep, usually $50 - $150, with the former being the Chinese knock-offs that are generally not quite as good as the $100 ones, although still usually more pleasing than "regular" keyboards.

 

I don't consider that an outrageous investment considering how much typing I do, but I definitely understand some people not caring about a more premium typing experience. I definitely compromise in my own areas that I don't care quite as much about.

I would invest more in a keyboard, like you, being a writer also, but since I love the 1200XL keyboard and TLWP for my word processing, I wouldn't use one except for what I am doing right now, and for this, the PC keyboard I have is fine. Not as nice as my 1200XL, but good enough not to worry about it.

[Gunstar]

For me the fastest and most comfortable typing was always :

1. Atari 800 XL

2. The old IBM PS/2 keyboard above

 

I haven't had a chance to try 1200 XL keyboard. How are those compared to 800XL ?

Much better, better response, better feel and a better stepped layout instead of flat. I'm playing with both right now, even the sound they make sounds like a much better build quality on the 1200XL then the 800XL. The best feeling keyboard Atari ever made. I would say the 1200XL keyboard is compared to the 800XL keyboard as the 800XL keyboard compares to the XE keyboards. A major step up.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Gunstar

[+mytek]

Much better, better response, better feel and a better stepped layout instead of flat. I'm playing with both right now, even the sound they make sounds like a much better build quality on the 1200XL then the 800XL. The best feeling keyboard Atari ever made. I would say the 1200XL keyboard is compared to the 800XL keyboard as the 800XL keyboard compares to the XE keyboards. A major step up.

 

Yep they were definitely heading in the right direction with the 1200XL, if only they hadn't removed what was originally planned to be there (i.e., PBI). It is such a beautiful looking machine .

 

[flashjazzcat]

I put the PBI right back, but quite honestly now that we have U1MB and SIDE, I rarely use it and probably wouldn't miss the expansion port if it wasn't there. Add RAM, fix up video and OS, perform one off, mandatory keyboard repair which should come as no surprise to anyone now, and buy a large desk and you're set for a happy computing experience.

[Nebulon]

As someone who had neither Atari or Commodore in the 80s (TRS-80), I’m finding this topic very informative.

Back then I wished I had an Atari 800 but settled on a 2nd hand TRS-80 for economic reasons.

 

Thanks to the magic of eBay, I now have multiple commodore and Atari computers and someday I’ll hopefully have time to find space to set them up.

 

That's exactly my history too. I really wanted an Atari 800 when they first hit the market but they were way out of my price range. So as a compromise, it was the TRS-80 for me too.

 

Nowadays, I spend maybe a bit too much time flipping the lid on the Atari 400 and 800 open, then closed, then open again.... It's so cooool !

[Bill Loguidice]

 

That's exactly my history too. I really wanted an Atari 800 when they first hit the market but they were way out of my price range. So as a compromise, it was the TRS-80 for me too.

 

Nowadays, I spend maybe a bit too much time flipping the lid on the Atari 400 and 800 open, then closed, then open again.... It's so cooool !

 

I would use my remaining 800 more just for the cool/fun factor, but I find that most of my flash-based solutions don't want to fit in its snug cartridge port.

[Nebulon]

now to my US friends as in Europe (?) except of the Dragon 32/64 I never have seen a Tandy Coco... how is that rated in terms of games etc? I mean Atari 800 must be shocking to industry when presented 1978 at CES...

 

As someone who used these extensively, I can safely say that the Atari 800 blew the Tandy Color Computer 2 away.

 

Having said that, the CoCo actually has some really fun games. And if you were a hacker back in the day, it was the ideal platform. The 6809 offered a lot of processing power and was good at getting up to no good.

[fujidude]

 

As someone who used these extensively, I can safely say that the Atari 800 blew the Tandy Color Computer 2 away.

 

Having said that, the CoCo actually has some really fun games. And if you were a hacker back in the day, it was the ideal platform. The 6809 offered a lot of processing power and was good at getting up to no good.

 

I never had the opportunity to experience CoCo2 1st hand, but after absorbing information about over the years (mostly from AtariAge), it really does seem like it might have been underrated a bit in it's day.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I never had the opportunity to experience CoCo2 1st hand, but after absorbing information about over the years (mostly from AtariAge), it really does seem like it might have been underrated a bit in it's day.

 

I don't know about that. Having written a book on that computer platform, I think it was received about as well as it could have been. Tandy never was 100% behind the platform and consistently cheaped out when they could have made more dramatic improvements after the initial model's release. It sold well enough to be sold in Radio Shack for almost 10 years, which puts it in the upper tier of longevity as these things go, but it was always at best a second class citizen for Tandy, first to the TRS-80 series, then to the Tandy 1000 series.

 

One of the bigger drawbacks to the CoCo platform was that it was as audio-visually weak as the Apple II, without some of the premium perks of that platform to help balance it out. It was meant as and sold as an inexpensive home computer, competing with more popular computers from Atari and Commodore, both of which did better in the flashier areas and at similar price points.

 

Another big problem with the CoCo was that its software was mostly found in Radio Shack stores, and Tandy put real limits on third party creations. If a third party didn't publish through Tandy, then for the most part it was mail order or nothing. As we know from the TI-99/4a, limiting third party software can really limit a system's potential. Texas Instruments tried to rectify that situation all-too-late, along with an ill-timed price war that they couldn't win. Tandy, thanks to their Radio Shack stores, were able to weather the price wars much better (and with few improvements made to the CoCo computers over time, the cheaper they could produce them and still sell for a tidy profit).

 

Nevertheless, despite never being destined for true breakout success, it's an interesting product in a lot of ways, with its microprocessor certainly being among its strengths. And while there were still improvements that they should have made (like sound),Tandy at least took a nice evolutionary leap with the CoCo 3 in 1986, making it one of just a few "super 8-bits" that actually saw release (unlike systems like the TI-99/8 (and yes, I know it's technically a 16-bit processor) or the C-65).

[fujidude]

Actually it was the CoCo 3 I'm thinking of, not the 2. Sorry.

[Gunstar]

 

Yep they were definitely heading in the right direction with the 1200XL, if only they hadn't removed what was originally planned to be there (i.e., PBI). It is such a beautiful looking machine .

 

What's that about no PBI now?!?

[Gunstar]

I put the PBI right back, but quite honestly now that we have U1MB and SIDE, I rarely use it and probably wouldn't miss the expansion port if it wasn't there. Add RAM, fix up video and OS, perform one off, mandatory keyboard repair which should come as no surprise to anyone now, and buy a large desk and you're set for a happy computing experience.

I was of the exact same frame of mind before, that you are now, with regards to the PBI. I didn't think it was needed, because of the SiDE 2 and the MyIDE 2 (that I have). But I changed my mind as soon as I learned about Dropcheck's 1090XL expansion system...

[flashjazzcat]

I was of the exact same frame of mind before, that you are now, with regards to the PBI. I didn't think it was needed, because of the SiDE 2 and the MyIDE 2 (that I have). But I changed my mind as soon as I learned about Dropcheck's 1090XL expansion system...

 

That's a lovely job: more aesthetically pleasing than my proprietary parallel connector (although my methods were steered by not wanting to paint the case). Really outstanding, though!

[Keatah]

Oddly enough I preferred the Breadbin to the C and yes it was made as cheap as possible, Tramiel is on camera along with his team saying this. The C version was just wrong looking to me and they changed the SID chip which does sound differently to the 6581 but its horses for courses, some liked the new one, some hated it. Same as with the Atari range, I love the 800, like the 800XL, don't like the 600XL and really not keen on the soft key 130XE. I didn't mention the 400 as I never owned one, it was a quirky design that fitted well with Star Raiders but what little I had to do with the keyboard was annoying, I used to love replacing the KB at Maplin with a real one, it felt so much better even though the replacement KB was very cheaply made.

 

I often associate the Atari 400 with StarRaiders, it's what I first played it on to begin with. I was too young to gripe about the keyboard. But the design of it and the whole machine was semi-futuristic and reminds me a lot of the "testing stations" they had the Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago.

 

In the space section, after you visited the exhibit, you could sit down at this computer terminal. 1 of 4 arranged in a "+" pattern, and you could take a quiz on what you thought your learned. The monitors were amber 8" or 9" in size. They were held in front of you by a large square L-shaped arm that was mounted in the center of the "+" and they had disco 70's style yellow/orange stripes for accent. Not unlike the PDP-11 consoles with those switches. And of course they were digital branded. I don't recall if they were touch-button like today's gas station "credit" "debit" side buttons or if there was a real keyboard present. Might even have been both.

 

An Atari 400 would have fit right in there.

 

As far as the breadbin vs the C, I preferred the breadbin. And there was nothing wrong with it for a home computer. It's not as if we manhandled it like our Tonka Trucks or played with it in the mud. As a child at the time I always got a bit confused and maybe even disappointed that some computer models were redesigned for no apparent (to a kid) reason. The quickening pace of having new hardware come out (that demonstrated little practical improvement) made me feel like I couldn't "keep up" with tech changes.

[Keatah]

The VIC-20, both models of the C64 and the Atari 130XE all fit in one drawer each in my desk. The Atari 800 does not fit in a drawer, it needs a shelf in my repurposed filing cabinet, together with my Philips VG-8235, BBC Micro, BBC Master 128, Olivetti PC-1 and Philips Videopac G7000. Previously I used to keep my C128 in that cabinet too, before I sold it to someone who wanted it more than me. I'm afraid the Amiga 1200 is too wide to even fit in the cabinet.

 

Now some might argue it is a good thing when a computer is large and powerful enough so it can't be hidden in a standard sized desk drawer. I like to optimize the storage space so for me it is a good thing that every item has its space (and lots more crap that hasn't found its space remains on the desktop for years, but that is another matter).

 

Makes sense. Some may say I've taken it to an extreme, neat freaks and everything. But no. I have to "enforce" being neat or else I turn into a hoarder worthy of the tv show itself. And the transformation would happen rather quickly.

 

It's another reason why I do emulation instead of having literal piles and mounds of electronics. A couple of XPC cubes and a couple of NUCs are really all we need. And these are small items. The XPC fits in a gym bag and the NUCs, well, I can stuff several in a regular-sided drawer. The smaller they are the MORE of them I can get without making a mess. Heh..

[Keatah]

I'm of the belief that the reason the C64 took off so well at that critical time was largely do to it being more affordable. I think a lot of the purchasers back then (early 80s) largely saw many of the computers offered as largely equivalent due to a lack of understanding. As an example, my parents got me a 600XL for Christmas. Sure they knew it had 16K and not 64K, but had no clue just how crippling a 16K limit was. Besides, the C64 did compare favorably capability wise; but it was cheaper.

 

I drilled it into my parents' heads that K meant everything. It was the perfect measure of performance of a computer. It was simple to understand. The more K there was the better the machine. It was a real and hard number that couldn't be argued with.

[fujidude]

 

I drilled it into my parents' heads that K meant everything. It was the perfect measure of performance of a computer. It was simple to understand. The more K there was the better the machine. It was a real and hard number that couldn't be argued with.

 

For me when I was a kid, it didn't matter how unassailable a fact or position; my parents won all arguments because there was no such thing as arguing with them. The end.

[thetick1]

 

For me when I was a kid, it didn't matter how unassailable a fact or position; my parents won all arguments because there was no such thing as arguing with them. The end.

 

I remember my dad saying ".... and if you think that is a problem then I can swat your ass so hard you won't even think about any other problems except your red sore ass." Parenting was a bit different in the '70's. I was the younger child and saw by brother get beaten a few times. As a result I always listened and never talked back. My older brother was not that smart.

 

My son has my demeanor and we never had to spank him not even once. A verbal scolding or loss of privilege was all that was ever needed. He always just listened. I'm sure very few children are like him.

Edited February 21, 2018 by thetick1

[shoestring]

 

For me when I was a kid, it didn't matter how unassailable a fact or position; my parents won all arguments because there was no such thing as arguing with them. The end.

 

Very true. I wanted an Apple IIe but I knew we could never afford one. Come Christmas time at K-mart, mom told me "You're having that and that's it!" despite logic and reason. It was a Vic 20.

 

But then the smart thinking salesman stepped in with more logic and reason, we got a c64 instead. So I was happy in the end

[Gunstar]

I remember wanting a real monitor for my Atari, so I could use the monitor port for a much better picture instead of my TV with RF. So I asked for one, either my birthday or Xmas, I forget which, and they brought home another TV!!! I was like what the F! And they said the salesman had told them RF or video didn't matter, they worked the same. So I was stuck with RF until I bought my own real 1084 monitor a few years later. I told them the salesman was wrong, but they figured he knew more than me, I was just a high-school kid after all, and the salesman was a working adult who knew his job. Yeah, job as a bad salesman making $5 and hour with no clue.

[Bryan]

 

Yep they were definitely heading in the right direction with the 1200XL, if only they hadn't removed what was originally planned to be there (i.e., PBI). It is such a beautiful looking machine .

 

 

Yeah, it was a good and a bad decision. The 1200XL was the baby machine of the new line and yet it was priced at $900 despite being cheaper to build than the 800. I think Atari was dazzled by the prices Apple was getting.

[fujidude]

 

Very true. I wanted an Apple IIe but I knew we could never afford one. Come Christmas time at K-mart, mom told me "You're having that and that's it!" despite logic and reason. It was a Vic 20.

 

But then the smart thinking salesman stepped in with more logic and reason, we got a c64 instead. So I was happy in the end

 

Yeah, that 600XL got hooked up to a stylish black and white TV which was like 10". Didn't even have a cassette drive for it. Luckily my joysticks from my heavy sixer worked and I did get a Star Raiders cart.

[zylon]

 

Yeah, that 600XL got hooked up to a stylish black and white TV which was like 10". Didn't even have a cassette drive for it. Luckily my joysticks from my heavy sixer worked and I did get a Star Raiders cart.

 

Been there... 1st computer was a garage sale VIC-20 on little Zenith B&W 13" that the vert-hold would slip every so often and you'd have to adjust it quick. Next was C64c on same TV until I got a deal on a "display model" color set that had a tilted picture. If you put a deck of cards under one side, it was just fine. After that, was Tandy 1000EX. Now it's C64c at work apartment and XEGS at my house.

Edited February 21, 2018 by zylon

[Keatah]

For me when I was a kid, it didn't matter how unassailable a fact or position; my parents won all arguments because there was no such thing as arguing with them. The end.

 

I always seemed to think I had a modicum of control over them. For all I know they modulated the situation the entire time, them sneaky bastages!