Gunstar Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) The two games also are 10 years apart, so not ideal to compare them as much really has happened both on the C64 and Atari 8-bit computers in the past decade. I wonder which C64 games are honest to compare with Crownland (2007), if Sam's Journey is a bit too "developed", if you understand what I mean. Bugs in Buggyland (2006) is a preview version made by Mad / Bauknecht, later known for Majesty of Sprites and Pets Rescue on the Plus/4, which have been discussed here just a few weeks ago. Since Bugs is just a preview, it doesn't necessarily mark top of the C64 scrolling platformers at the time, just that is very close in time to Crownland. Knight 'n Grail (2009) is very highly regarded on the C64 though not exactly the same kind of game. I don't know if anyone in the Atari community has wished for a port of this game. Generally I think it is better to work from the strengths and weaknesses of your target system, than trying to port a new, impressive game in an existing genre where you'll spend more time on trying to work around limitations than working with strengths. It seems to me a fair number of the recent Atari games from ABBUC and other places are well developed, though perhaps not utterly optimized unlike what many C64 programmers keep doing. I think the Atari could do Bugs in Buggyland, it's quite close to Crownland, and yes, the Atari version would probably have some flicker to the sprites just like Crownland, but I can live with that. There's no denying that these are all fantastic C64 games that would be welcome on the Atari, even if there were a few shortcomings for lack of hardware sprites. And I'm thinking about moving up my time table to get a C64 back in my possession. Edited March 16, 2018 by Gunstar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Ironically, on the way home I happened to be listening to the Scene World podcast featuring an interview with the lead guy on the Sam's Journey game, Chester Kollschen. It gave me an even deeper appreciation for the technical wizardry and care that went into the game, and how easy it is to take for granted some of the things they pulled off. Here's the link for those interested: https://sceneworld.org/blog/2018/03/15/kollschen/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Ironically, on the way home I happened to be listening to the Scene World podcast featuring an interview with the lead guy on the Sam's Journey game, Chester Kollschen. : https://sceneworld.org/blog/2018/03/15/kollschen/ Ironically ? LOL Does everyone listen to a Scene World podcast ? Doing such games on the C64 IS NO miracle. Time to get out of your shell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Can't say I liked that game much, just feels wrong... I had another play of Sams J and I'd be stunned if it could be done on the Atari, something a bit like it yes but to that quality, no. ANd this is where Emkay says that it could be done and even better, when it was announced on the C64 no one believed it was a real game, they said the screens were mock ups. When they said it scrolled all over the place it was again mocked as a lie but when the video's started coming people were saying WOW, how do they do that. Since its release its still amazing people and I love it but then again I don't tie myself to one system, I go where the goodness is. So, no I don't think Sams could happen on the Atari but I'm too busy enjoying what IS on the Atari, there's stuff that still knocks my socks off like Space Harrier, Stunt Car Racer, RGB and a suitcase load of others. I think it has to be a jealousy thing. Whether or not the Atari do it is irrelevant. Game isn't out for Atari, so for now, it means it can't do it. It's very disappointing that every time a good production for another machine comes out, the usuals have to jump in and say Atari could do it better (even if it still hasn't since 1979). 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Ironically ? LOL Does everyone listen to a Scene World podcast ? Doing such games on the C64 IS NO miracle. Time to get out of your shell Ironically, yes, as in a coincidental situation. And I'm not sure anyone said "miracle." Would you accept "special" or "unusual?" Probably not. It wouldn't fit your chosen narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Ironically, yes, as in a coincidental situation. And I'm not sure anyone said "miracle." Would you accept "special" or "unusual?" Probably not. It wouldn't fit your chosen narrative. Have you got your daily LSD yet? Your writings sound like that. But, to repeat it more "technically": It is rather easy to write those games on the C64. It's all about straight forward coding. Set x,y and face, and voilá , the sprite is set. Put the raster interrupts and redo that ... . Same to the background. The main problem is that the CPU gets wasted. But that is no problem, as the hardware offers that simple to program interfaces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 But, to repeat it more "technically": It is rather easy to write those games on the C64. It's all about straight forward coding. Set x,y and face, and voilá , the sprite is set. Put the raster interrupts and redo that ... . Same to the background. The main problem is that the CPU gets wasted. But that is no problem, as the hardware offers that simple to program interfaces. Ignoring that lovely comment of yours that I chose not to quote, what point are you trying to make? Are you saying that a AAA quality Commodore 64 game in 2017 by a professional team of developers is nothing special because the hardware happens to be capable of such a game? That the fact that we got something this good means nothing because the hardware is good? Kindly explain. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Ignoring that lovely comment of yours that I chose not to quote, what point are you trying to make? Are you saying that a AAA quality Commodore 64 game in 2017 by a professional team of developers is nothing special because the hardware happens to be capable of such a game? That the fact that we got something this good means nothing because the hardware is good? Kindly explain. What's to misunderstand here? The C64 has it's features for scrolling games with sprites. That makes an advantage particular in that range. This is nothin new. It would be more astonishing to have a database running on a stock hardware C64 faster than the stock Atari . Also, as I wrote at almost the start of this thread: Those games were boring to most people. If people, like you, want such "particular C64 style games" , feel free to play them, but please don't try to penetrate your needs into other's minds. Most people want ego perspective games. That is a strength of the Atari, but people always try to resemble that C64 stuff, wasting time instead of doing the good stuff for the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I don't see anything new on the C64. It's just the combination of levels and features that have been in other games before, just put into one game. The gameplay reminds a lot of Giana Sisters. So where's the miracle? Sorry, what ? Nothing new on c64 ? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Sorry, what ? Nothing new on c64 ? Interesting to see that some pixelchange here and there is to people "great new stuff" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 At 2nd, there will never be a group of intrepid coders, doing such a game optimized for the Atari. Sorry, but that is just wrong. What is Stunt car racer if not a product of dedicated group of coders ? And things are just getting better. At least among coders that I know. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Interesting to see that some pixelchange here and there is to people "great new stuff" At least you admit you're trolling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 At least you admit you're trolling. That's your point of view. In the past there have been much better games on the C64. Particular with better music and more balanced colorization. just an example ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 You could watch them without getting eye cancer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) First Mclaneinc recites the story how early screenshots of Sam's Journey were taken with skepticism from the C64 community, claiming those have to be mock-ups, not doable. Then Emkay more or less explains a game like that one is a given on the C64 as it just uses the hardware as expected, nothing new to see. That are two very different views about the same game and the same system... Edited March 16, 2018 by carlsson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 First Mclaneinc recites the story how early screenshots of Sam's Journey were taken with skepticism from the C64 community, claiming those have to be mock-ups, not doable. Then Emkay more or less explains a game like that one is a given on the C64 as it just uses the hardware as expected, nothing new to see. That are two very different views about the same game and the same system... The problem is where people don't know the technical background. Could be even more impressive to see Test Drive with a playable framerate on the C64. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 One word, "purple". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Sam's Journey is the most amazing game that I have ever played on a C-64! Play it if you can... Are there any intrepid A8 programers out there that can bring something of this quality over? Is there even a market for new games on the A8 line?? Intrepid coders - yes "This quality" - maybe not that many colors per scanline, but scrolling, speed, gameplay - definitely yes. Market for new A8 games - imho yes. If you build it, they will buy it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Giana Sisters was and is great, but it's pretty clear that Sam's Journey surpasses it on a technical level. It reminds me of an MMC-enhanced NES game in many ways. It's really quite the achievement, especially in 2018 when this kind of production, let alone scope, is rarely put into homebrews. Even if you don't like the genre, it's undeniable this is a AAA end result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Intrepid coders - yes "This quality" - maybe not that many colors per scanline, but scrolling, speed, gameplay - definitely yes. That's exactly what I wrote at the start of the thread Market for new A8 games - imho yes. If you build it, they will buy it. Pretty sure, they would buy it. But one Wolfenstein 3D like game on the Atari would help more than thousands of those "Sam's Journey" derivatives . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Intrepid coders - yes "This quality" - maybe not that many colors per scanline, but scrolling, speed, gameplay - definitely yes. Market for new A8 games - imho yes. If you build it, they will buy it. I don't even think it's necessarily that. Both platforms have their own strengths, obviously, and it would be nice to see new games crafted around those. What's probably needed more than anything is a similarly-sized and qualified team on the Atari side to put the same production value and depth into whatever game they chose as their own passion project. That's also why that podcast interview was so interesting. It's clear that the right talent was put together to make a project like Sam's Journey work out the way it did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Giana Sisters was and is great, but it's pretty clear that Sam's Journey surpasses it on a technical level. It reminds me of an MMC-enhanced NES game in many ways. It's really quite the achievement, especially in 2018 when this kind of production, let alone scope, is rarely put into homebrews. Even if you don't like the genre, it's undeniable this is a AAA end result. Blup.... Back in the 80s it was much harder to get data for a game and the design. But, as it seems, they had a better feeling for colors back then. The color misusage started with "Mayhem in Monsterland" already. I sometimes asked myself, why they didn't do the obvious back then. But Hires is not usable on all TV Sets and shows wrong colors. Today's Displays allow to have 256 colors on the Atari without flicker, but that's another story. The "new generation" of C64 games reminds of a chicken soup "enhanced" with strawberry jelly. If you like it, eat it. But you shouldn't expect that others attend your likes. Also, it is not better, to put stuff together, a "professional" wouldn't do by any good will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 What's probably needed more than anything is a similarly-sized and qualified team on the Atari side to put the same production value and depth into whatever game they chose as their own passion project. That's also why that podcast interview was so interesting. It's clear that the right talent was put together to make a project like Sam's Journey work out the way it did. Agreed 100%. People first, type of game is not that important. If the team is good, it should produce more than a single game. Be it a 2d platformer that guy's who liked Sam's journey will play, or a 3d shooter that Emkay would beg for, doesn't matter. Make it so you can be proud of it. ps. Thanks for that podcast info, sounds like a very interesting thing to listen ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Agreed 100%. People first, type of game is not that important. If the team is good, it should produce more than a single game. Be it a 2d platformer that guy's who liked Sam's journey will play, or a 3d shooter that Emkay would beg for, doesn't matter. Make it so you can be proud of it. Funny choice of words. I'm not begging for anything. People want to show how powerful "their" machine is. But, do you think it is any useful to tell something like this ... .... was an approval of how powerful a Turrican could be on the Atari ? It shows rather an utter weakness... But, I wonder, if you get the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 ... contrary... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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