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What was the Jaguar truly capable of?


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#251 Gummy Bear ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 10:14 AM

2fps is all the Pro's need!

#252 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 1:35 PM

Yup. And that machine has 14 MB RAM.



#253 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 5:26 PM

Yup. And that machine has 14 MB RAM.


But it only has 32-bits

#254 Gummy Bear ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 6:47 PM

But it only has 32-bits


And the Neo Geo only has 16 bits.
It still wipes the floor with both of them with raw 2D POWA!

#255 empsolo OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 6:48 PM

I thought the Neo-geo was a 24-bit system?


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#256 Gummy Bear ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 6:50 PM

I thought the Neo-geo was a 24-bit system?
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Lol :)


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#257 swapd0 ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 6:55 PM

I wonder when the people will learn that it doesn't matter how many bits you have, it's just about memory bandwidth.



#258 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 8:02 PM

Come on. If Atari said it in its "do the math" advert, it must be true!



#259 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 3:44 AM

To put things into perspective, the Saturn needed the RAM expansion cart to run Metal Slug and IIRC even Playstation games had animations cut for ported NeoGeo games. Id hate to see what these games would look like on a significantly less powerful system than those.

If the Saturn was a cartridge base console it would have not needed a RAM expansion at all. Maybe a speculation, but surely there is a reason NEO GEO Roms were 100 - 300 MBits. Then Metal Slug is dropping frames a lot, mostly running between 20-30 FPS. I guess the Jag could do that, but the problem is that the huge graphic assets need a lot ROM space,  Jag carts don't provide enough for that. BTW Native is beyond anything the NEOGEO could do, so I think the Jag could pull off similar 2D games (like the NEO GEO). Probabyl it's all about the quality of gfx assets, but the amount of work for an artist(s)would be too much, to pull off something like MSlug, especially if there are only few and doing everything in spare time.


Edited by agradeneu, Tue Nov 6, 2018 3:48 AM.


#260 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 3:57 AM

Getting the jRISCS to 'emulate' the rest of the Neo Geo is impractical and likely impossible as several people have suggested. Trying to emulate or simulate the Neo Geo and dump its screen 60 times per second just wouldn't happen. Could the Jag natively throw around as many sprites as some Neo Geo games? Sure, at least from what I've seen. With RAM and ROM limitations (just for starters, never mind bus speed and game logic) the Jag likely would struggle with some Neo Geo games. But I won't speculate beyond that because personal, work, study/research, and business reasons prevent me from diving into RB+ (for the next few months, after that who knows... ;) ). But I don't presume to know better than people who actually know.

What I'd do (and suggest anyone with more time than me do) is to grab some sprites from here https://www.spriters...m/neo_geo_ngcd/, then find the sounds, and then code something up in RB+. Anything. Rather than speculate, go do it. Much more productive than telling those who are intimately familiar with the system what it can or cannot do. If you can put together complex music using mod trackers  philipj, you'll cope with Basic programming easily. I'm far from a great coder (mostly self-taught), yet I teach it, and have done so for nearly 20 years. If I can, anyone can.
 

I hope you stick around VintageGamer74. Some of us might be a bit testy at times, but it's likely because some of these discussions (this one in particular) have been going on for over twenty years, often with the most vocal people being the ones who haven't coded on the Jag (or on anything).

JagChris, calling people clowns, people who actually code for the system and work within it's parameters and limitations, doesn't seem particularly useful. I don't know what your beef if, but as someone who reads the forum every few days I've noted a bit of a 'tone' directed at certain people in some of your posts. I could be reading it wrong, but I don't think I am. I'm not the forum police (and wouldn't want to be) but back in the day we had a saying..."take it to PM"...it was usually salient advice and a better way to sort out problems than not so subtle digs that derail threads.
 

I might add that the Jag handles 16 bit color sprites which are eating more much more memory bandwidth than 4 bit sprites like NEO GEO. Bandwidth saves with 4 bit sprites would be big, compared to 16 bit their data size is almost tiny. There is a lot of talks about Jaguar limitations but because nobody here really did anything on the NEOGEO system it might be a tad overrated compared to the Jag. The NeoGEO surely has it's fair share of limitations too and the quality of mentioned games are results of very hard work, work arounds and smart use of the hardware, that should not be taken as granted by any means.


Edited by agradeneu, Tue Nov 6, 2018 4:05 AM.


#261 Gummy Bear ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 5:27 AM

but surely there is a reason NEO GEO Roms were 100 - 300 MBits.

22 to 716 MBits*
That's for the official lineup.
Fast Striker from ng:Dev team is 1560MBits

BTW Native is beyond anything the NEOGEO could do

You are kidding, right? :)
Take a look at Blazing Star, Prehistoric Isle 2, Strikers 1945 Plus, Razion, Fast Striker for example.
It'll be a cold day in hell before the Jag could run those.
AND they have sound.

#262 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 6:03 AM

22 to 716 MBits*
That's for the official lineup.
Fast Striker from ng:Dev team is 1560MBits

You are kidding, right? :)
Take a look at Blazing Star, Prehistoric Isle 2, Strikers 1945 Plus, Razion, Fast Striker for example.
It'll be a cold day in hell before the Jag could run those.
AND they have sound.

I'm not kidding. I know and have played mentioned games. Native was restricted to 2MB (!)RAM, it would be better with  proper ROM storage. It was a graphic tech demo anyway, so it's a bit unfair to bring up the no sound issue. If you just recognize what Duranik did with just 2 MB I wonder why you are so determined and in some ways defensive about what is possible on the Jaguar?? Still it has much more colors than any NEOGEO game, while having the same amount of FX running at rock solid 60 FPS. The 1560 Mbits number is meaningless really, the carts cost around 460 Euros to buy -  for a rather generic bullett hell shmup, sorry to say that.

Not mention you are throwing together quite different games, regarding color, sprites, frame rates and so on. Blazing Star e.g, uses lower res 4 bit 16 color sprites with less animation frames than Native and 16 color backgrounds. You can thank the artists and their brilliant art design that it LOOKS so good!  

Like I said, you take this game's beauty for granted, but it is surely not because the NEOGEO does all the stunning artwork by some secret magic within it's circuits. :-D

BTW 100 - 300 Mbit was the common size of NEOGEO Roms, nobody ever tought about 1500 Mbit being possible back in 1995. But that sounds familiar, isn't it?


Edited by agradeneu, Tue Nov 6, 2018 6:36 AM.


#263 Punisher5.0 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 8:12 AM

If the Saturn was a cartridge base console it would have not needed a RAM expansion at all. Maybe a speculation, but surely there is a reason NEO GEO Roms were 100 - 300 MBits. Then Metal Slug is dropping frames a lot, mostly running between 20-30 FPS. I guess the Jag could do that, but the problem is that the huge graphic assets need a lot ROM space,  Jag carts don't provide enough for that. BTW Native is beyond anything the NEOGEO could do, so I think the Jag could pull off similar 2D games (like the NEO GEO). Probabyl it's all about the quality of gfx assets, but the amount of work for an artist(s)would be too much, to pull off something like MSlug, especially if there are only few and doing everything in spare time.


The carts had to be that big because the data had to be uncompressed to pull directly from ROM IIRC. As far as Duranik goes, you cant compare demos to real games. Demos are like a double edged sword. People will say yeah well look at what "xxxx" can do. Its not a game though. It looks like it lacks collision (?) and has no sound. Im pretty sure that Duranik had said the DSP was being used up for other things and there would never be sound. Dont quote me on that though.

#264 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 8:49 AM

From Duranik themselves:


"The DSP is uncompressing the data as needed, the ICE Packer is used for that task. It would still have been easily possible to add at least Sound FX. I don´t know why we didn´t do that, probably because there was no memory left for samples. The game was developed on a Falcon with 14 MB, a program called Devpac was used for the programming side. For the graphics we used Lightwave for modelling and rendering and our own sprite editor."

So maybe sound FX at least, but no in game music?

Edited by Lost Dragon, Tue Nov 6, 2018 8:52 AM.


#265 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:51 AM

The carts had to be that big because the data had to be uncompressed to pull directly from ROM IIRC. As far as Duranik goes, you cant compare demos to real games. Demos are like a double edged sword. People will say yeah well look at what "xxxx" can do. Its not a game though. It looks like it lacks collision (?) and has no sound. Im pretty sure that Duranik had said the DSP was being used up for other things and there would never be sound. Dont quote me on that though.

well thats exactly what I already pointed out in one of my posts. Native is a tech demo, which went a bit overboard with sprite count and FX density. So for a real game they would have to pair back the graphics  to make it more playable and design proper levels anyway.

The DSP was used for unpacking compressed data real time, which is why they could literally shoehorn all these 16 bit color graphics into just 2 MB?

Now just IMAGINE: 1.) Native having proper ROM space 2.) Native just using 4 bit 16 color sprites like NEOGEO games.

Despite you trying to put a negative spin on Native, the demo and Demos in general serve a clear purpose, especially if it's called a graphic tech demo. So I may ask why you determine sound is not possible based on a graphic demo which purpose was to max out all the gfx assets within just 2MB RAM???


Edited by agradeneu, Tue Nov 6, 2018 11:28 AM.


#266 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:55 AM

From Duranik themselves:


"The DSP is uncompressing the data as needed, the ICE Packer is used for that task. It would still have been easily possible to add at least Sound FX. I don´t know why we didn´t do that, probably because there was no memory left for samples. The game was developed on a Falcon with 14 MB, a program called Devpac was used for the programming side. For the graphics we used Lightwave for modelling and rendering and our own sprite editor."

So maybe sound FX at least, but no in game music?

Thanks for that quote.He said "easily" for Sound FX in that quote. Read a bit more carefully.:-D


Edited by agradeneu, Tue Nov 6, 2018 11:49 AM.


#267 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 6, 2018 11:17 AM

Very nostalgic reading that about "Duranik"... It was the buzz around that game that got me into the Jag scene in the beginning. I'd mark the Jaguar as another faded game console like the 3DO, which is also a good console in it's own right, until I ran into "Atari HQ" and saw images of the game in development. That's when I knew I wanted to make games for the Jaguar; been stuck with the idea ever since not really knowing what all that involved. Great memories man... Good old college days. :)



#268 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:40 AM

In all seriousness, the jaguar can probably do much more impressive effects than the neo geo due to sheer processing power. But the amount of graphics and data the neo geo could access are on a whole different level.

#269 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:54 AM

Regarding the easily aspect of the quote i put up before heading off to work earlier:

In same quote he stated he wasn't sure why they didn't add sound FX, then makes the suggestion it may of been due to lack of memory for samples.

Why would the sound FX of had to of been sampled?

Couldn't they have chip generated sound FX?.

I have no idea how the sound hardware works on the Jaguar, so the quote throws up more questions than it answers for myself.

#270 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:08 AM

Given the demo rips and tears the screen already there is no way that level of detail could be maintained with audio as well.

Native is and always will be that unobtainable dream that people talk about because the demo is a massive tease at what a final product could never be due to ram, bus, etc issues.

#271 VintageGamer74 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 4:35 AM

Let's just be thankful that the Jag is still being supported with new games. Whether it can do this number of polygons or this number of sprites is irrelevant.

#272 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 5:39 AM

Given the demo rips and tears the screen already there is no way that level of detail could be maintained with audio as well.

Native is and always will be that unobtainable dream that people talk about because the demo is a massive tease at what a final product could never be due to ram, bus, etc issues.

 

Spoken by someone who actually knows. :thumbsup:



#273 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 5:40 AM

Given the demo rips and tears the screen already there is no way that level of detail could be maintained with audio as well.

Native is and always will be that unobtainable dream that people talk about because the demo is a massive tease at what a final product could never be due to ram, bus, etc issues.

You sure we have played the same game? It's much more reasonable to expect a full game would look just as good, especially with the luxury of 6MB ROM space the guys did not have 20 years ago. This is impressive stuff just like what they have  pulled off on the Dreamcast with "Sturmwind".



#274 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 5:42 AM

 

Spoken by someone who actually knows. :thumbsup:

Ok, I did not know CJ was member of Duranik and involved in the making of the demo.



#275 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 5:58 AM

More ROM won't increase bandwidth to the object processor and dsp no matter how many times pixie dust is thrown 😀




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