Jump to content

Photo

Do you support CollectorVision licensing ColecoVision from Cardillo/Coleco


99 replies to this topic

Poll: Do you support CollectorVision licensing ColecoVision from Cardillo/Coleco Holdings (74 member(s) have cast votes)

Regardless if if you will/will not buy the new CollectorVision system, do you support CollectorVision entering into a licensing agreement with Cardillo/Riverwest/Dormitus/whatever they call themselves these days.

  1. Yes (26 votes [35.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.14%

  2. No (48 votes [64.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 64.86%

Vote

#51 artrag OFFLINE  

artrag

    Stargunner

  • 1,120 posts

Posted Sun Aug 5, 2018 12:40 AM

There is no need for an agreement

#52 bobstoned OFFLINE  

bobstoned

    Space Invader

  • 16 posts
  • Location:Staffordshire - England

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:39 AM

I bear no ill will towards any of the homebrew developers, but I am disappointed in any acts of making a deal with the devil who not only made it perfectly clear that he doesn't care about the homebrew developers, but also that said devil's only potential market (the very community he shat on and picked fights with).
 
You don't need the Coleco name or logo.  Let the quality of your work speak for itself.  There is no need to empower Cardillo in even the slightest way.  My refusal to buy anything that has a licensing deal with Cardillo is not a refusal of support for homebrew developers, but rather a reinforcement of my support for the developers and the community.  It is also a reminder that I stand by my principles.  I still wish Collectorvision success, but I and other like-minded individuals simply will not contribute to any act that puts a single penny in the pockets of the aforementioned leeches who shat on the community.

Well said, couldn't agree more with this. Exactly my position. It's very sad that CH have driven a wedge in the community, but it's not something that can be undone so easily, particularly for people who have invested so much effort in nurturing the whole scene into life. People will just have to decide with their conscience who to support. Honesty and integrity count. If Collectorvision think they can so easily brush away what they've done, then I think they're deluding themselves (as can be seen in the result of this poll).

Much of my interest in buying new retro stuff is driven by the warm glow of nostalgia mixed with seeing what could have been done with hindsight and more time. It fascinates me, I buy hardware upgrades for the Commodore 64 (reloaded MK2), BBC micro (video upgrade), PC Engine (CD FPGA) and more.

This is an expensive hobby, and I won't tolerate contributing to a large wedge of cash for anyone actively attempting to undermine the community.

Edited by bobstoned, Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:04 AM.


#53 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:28 AM

Considering the majority of Colecovision fans have nothing to do with this forum, I don't see what the point is of this poll other than to encourage people to take sides.

It's not like Collectorvision us going to suddenly say, "Hold on, the majority of AA members don't support my business decision? I guess I'll just have to go cancel our contract tout de suite!"

Vote with your wallet.

#54 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:32 AM

I hope everyone here knows they only own the Colecovision name.  They do not own any IP of the former Coleco company.  Even the name was illegally obtained. 


Is there a link or anything to further read? With the CV homebrew scene so robust, I often wonder how the opportunity was missed.

#55 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:34 AM

Considering the majority of Colecovision fans have nothing to do with this forum

 

I'm not exactly sure what your message in this one sentence here exactly refers to, but I would think that the majority of the ColecoVision/Coleco ADAM fans can be found either on this forum or through a number of the Facebook pages and groups that are out there. There aren't many of them left that aren't connecting to one of these outlets.  And if there is one common opinion that most of the fans would agree on, it would be that Coleco Holdings has shown over and over again their lack of respect for the community and the people who support it. Coleco have crapped on the very people who have kept their brand barely alive for the past 30 years, and to treat those people with such disrespect is unacceptable.  It's such a small community in the grand scheme of things to begin with that there is literally NO REASON or benefit for Cardillo to have acted the way he did towards several different groups.

 

IMO, this isn't really "taking sides" but simply letting CollectorVision know we respect them for what they have done for the community, and they don't NEED the Coleco label to earn any more respect, and if anything, there is a fear that some of that respect may be tarnished by using that logo.

 

I would just like to see CollectorVision succeed with this project and I personally do not think they need "Coleco" slapped on their product to gain the respect or more importantly sales from this community. 



#56 Keatah OFFLINE  

Keatah

    Missile Commander

  • 21,448 posts

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:14 AM

I've been looking into what is involved in implementing new cores into a random FPGA console and it's all Greek to me. It sounds more complicated than installing an emulator on your PC and that is usually a pain. If the only core the console comes with is ColecoVision, what would be involved in adding the MSX/2, 2600 and SMS core firmware and OS files ourselves? Do compatible ones already exist? It sounds like you can't necessarily take cores made for the Mist or jail-borked Analogue and add them to the particular FPGA unit.

 

It's also Greek to me and many many gamers as well. It's why FPGA is niche, and will remain niche for a long time to come.

 

By contrast, emulators can work on any intel chip +/- 10 years or more. So that means thousands upon thousands of machines.



#57 Keatah OFFLINE  

Keatah

    Missile Commander

  • 21,448 posts

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:22 AM

Someone knowledgeable with fpga development would have to prepare the cores. All the heavy work has been done, it's just a matter of migrating that work to this board and interfacing with its i/o. Once that is done it would be simpler for an end user to add system cores than it is installing an emulator on their computer.

Edit:
Unlike the open source mist and mister projects the analogue nt mini cores are closed source to kevtris. They should contact kevtris about his intellivision core. It has not been implemented anywhere as far as I know and may never be. This thing could even take Intellivision controllers.

 

Even migrating "that work to this board and interfacing with its i/o" is a major undertaking. When it comes for forward-migration of FPGA, we're still at the 1970's level of Z80 vs 6502.

 

When installing emulators the biggest hurdle is understanding file systems, folders, and WHAT A FILE IS! these are basic concepts familiar to anyone that hasn't grown up on smartphones.



#58 Keatah OFFLINE  

Keatah

    Missile Commander

  • 21,448 posts

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 AM

Did not repeat this year. AA boycott likely responsible. Odd ensemble of vendors to fill what booths they could. Window sales? Gnome hats?

 

Can't imagine AA having that kind of power, to kill off an expo or anything. The brand isn't that well-known these days, if at all, outside of pre-NES retrogaming circles.



#59 mr_me OFFLINE  

mr_me

    River Patroller

  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:57 AM

 
I'm not exactly sure what your message in this one sentence here exactly refers to, but I would think that the majority of the ColecoVision/Coleco ADAM fans can be found either on this forum or through a number of the Facebook pages and groups that are out there. There aren't many of them left that aren't connecting to one of these outlets.  And if there is one common opinion that most of the fans would agree on, it would be that Coleco Holdings has shown over and over again their lack of respect for the community and the people who support it. Coleco have crapped on the very people who have kept their brand barely alive for the past 30 years, and to treat those people with such disrespect is unacceptable.  It's such a small community in the grand scheme of things to begin with that there is literally NO REASON or benefit for Cardillo to have acted the way he did towards several different groups.
 
IMO, this isn't really "taking sides" but simply letting CollectorVision know we respect them for what they have done for the community, and they don't NEED the Coleco label to earn any more respect, and if anything, there is a fear that some of that respect may be tarnished by using that logo.
 
I would just like to see CollectorVision succeed with this project and I personally do not think they need "Coleco" slapped on their product to gain the respect or more importantly sales from this community. 

With social media it's often a very small percentage of the community that dominates the overwhelming majority of comments. Experts have said it can't be used to gauge public opinion.

Edit:
Also realise this is a hobby and people are going to do things that are fun for them, regardless what others think.

Edited by mr_me, Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:59 AM.


#60 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:56 PM

With social media it's often a very small percentage of the community that dominates the overwhelming majority of comments. Experts have said it can't be used to gauge public opinion.

 

Right, but given the size of the ColecoVision community, and the amount of those people who are connected in some way to an online forum or social platform (AtariAge Forums, ColecoVision Fan FB page, ColecoVision Lunatics FB Group, Coleco ADAM Facebook Group, etc) I would say that a fairly high percentage of that community is represented through those outlets.

 

I mean, without being connected in some way, you really aren't going to be able to find out about new homebrews coming out, or discussing the platform, so I'd say in this particular example, the "public opinion" of this community most certainly can be gauged based on the posts you see on those community platforms.  



#61 Swami ONLINE  

Swami

    River Patroller

  • 2,180 posts
  • Location:Twin Cities, MN

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:01 AM

 

Right, but given the size of the ColecoVision community, and the amount of those people who are connected in some way to an online forum or social platform (AtariAge Forums, ColecoVision Fan FB page, ColecoVision Lunatics FB Group, Coleco ADAM Facebook Group, etc) I would say that a fairly high percentage of that community is represented through those outlets.

 

I mean, without being connected in some way, you really aren't going to be able to find out about new homebrews coming out, or discussing the platform, so I'd say in this particular example, the "public opinion" of this community most certainly can be gauged based on the posts you see on those community platforms.  

 

Although definitely not in support of more polls on the topic, I would say this would probably be more dependable if it were on something like the CV Fan FB page where a poll on wanting a new console got 1400 responses, whereas this one got 71, which, by the way, is a lot more responses than any other poll in the last four year in the CV section, I think second place was 53 responses. Although, pollsters do National polls based on 2000 people all the time, with about 3-4% error.



#62 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:35 AM

 
I'm not exactly sure what your message in this one sentence here exactly refers to, but I would think that the majority of the ColecoVision/Coleco ADAM fans can be found either on this forum or through a number of the Facebook pages and groups that are out there. There aren't many of them left that aren't connecting to one of these outlets.  And if there is one common opinion that most of the fans would agree on, it would be that Coleco Holdings has shown over and over again their lack of respect for the community and the people who support it. Coleco have crapped on the very people who have kept their brand barely alive for the past 30 years, and to treat those people with such disrespect is unacceptable.  It's such a small community in the grand scheme of things to begin with that there is literally NO REASON or benefit for Cardillo to have acted the way he did towards several different groups.
 
IMO, this isn't really "taking sides" but simply letting CollectorVision know we respect them for what they have done for the community, and they don't NEED the Coleco label to earn any more respect, and if anything, there is a fear that some of that respect may be tarnished by using that logo.
 
I would just like to see CollectorVision succeed with this project and I personally do not think they need "Coleco" slapped on their product to gain the respect or more importantly sales from this community. 


The reason I know that plenty of CV fans have nothing to do with AA is because of my dealings with them at retrogaming expos and much earlier than that, ebay. Mentioning forums of any kind often gets a nil response...like they're fans, but not big enough to register in a forum. It's no sleight, either. I know AA is awesome but plenty more don't.

There are plenty of speculators as well. Look at how much some of the SGMs have gone for on ebay...from people know didn't even know about the first few runs. This stuff has an enormous resale value.

You might think this poll is friendly enough, and retrolucid doesn't mind, but how it reads to me is a separating of those who hate Cardillo so much they won't support anything he is associated with, and those who don't care. I get it, Cardillo is an ass. But why should retrolucid be affected by that? He wants his product to be officially licensed, so be it. That's all I'm saying. And when his product comes to light, a biased poll like this won't matter for the majority of purchasers, because they aren't AA members...and even if they were, there's a very good chance they don't even know who Cardillo is because they don't give a shit about drama. Lucky them!

Average retrogamers outnumber hardcore CV fans, and that's why when it finally sees release, you won't hear many youtuber reviewers mention the beef. They'll just care whether it's good or not, and I believe those good reviews will far outweigh any of these roadbumps on the way to market.

People are really stretching if they think AA 'is' the CV homebrew scene, IMO...and that it somehow will have a sway on the success of these new platforms, whenever they see completion. All they can really rely on is that they'll get theirs first, which is nice.

#63 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:55 AM

People are really stretching if they think AA 'is' the CV homebrew scene, IMO..

 

I didn't say that "AA is the CV Homebrew scene" I said that I *think* the majority of people who are part of the community (read: buy homebrews, are currently playing and enthusiastic about ColecoVision, are involved in the up-to-date news on what is happening with the further development of the system, etc) are either here or on one of the following pages:

 

 - AtariAge Forums (46,000 members)

 - ColecoVision Fan FB page (35,000 members)

 - ColecoVision Lunatics FB Group (3,400 members)

 - Coleco ADAM FB Group (660 members)

 - ColecoVision Subreddit (445 members)

 

If there is some other giant community out there that is unbeknownst to the rest of us, please do tell!  It's always great to be able to share stories and news with other people who enjoy this system!

If you think your "average retrogamer" are the majority of people who are purchasing ColecoVision homebrews or Super Game Modules and AREN'T a member of one of those ColecoVision communities I posted about above, I think that is where you are mistaken. 



#64 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:03 AM

if it were on something like the CV Fan FB page where a poll on wanting a new console got 1400 responses, whereas this one got 71, which, by the way, is a lot more responses than any other poll in the last four year in the CV section, I think second place was 53 responses. Although, pollsters do National polls based on 2000 people all the time, with about 3-4% error.

 

I posted that poll on the ColecoVision Fan Facebook page simply because I wanted to show there was a "general interest" in having a new ColecoVision compatible system. If anything that should show that there is a potential market for it with or without the branding. I'm sure that there were enough Analogue NT, Retro USB, and Retron systems sold without having the "Nintendo" logo on the box.  And IMO, the same applies here.  



#65 MrBeefy OFFLINE  

MrBeefy

    Stargunner

  • 1,065 posts
  • Location:Missouri USA

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:33 AM

 
Right, but given the size of the ColecoVision community, and the amount of those people who are connected in some way to an online forum or social platform (AtariAge Forums, ColecoVision Fan FB page, ColecoVision Lunatics FB Group, Coleco ADAM Facebook Group, etc) I would say that a fairly high percentage of that community is represented through those outlets.
 
I mean, without being connected in some way, you really aren't going to be able to find out about new homebrews coming out, or discussing the platform, so I'd say in this particular example, the "public opinion" of this community most certainly can be gauged based on the posts you see on those community platforms.  


A system named CollectorVision Console will reach predominantly those in the communities.

A licensed ColecoVision console will have more potential to reach those outside this community. It is better business to try and reach a bigger market.

I am in the AA community and the ONLY reason I found out about this console and Opcodes was because I was keeping up with the strong arming thread.

Cardillo is an idiot but not everyone got burned personally by him. He isn't the one producing it and I doubt CH is making much off of it, so the general populace in my guess won't care as much once news of this makes it there.

Out of all the system threads I try and look at the CV thread is by far the one with the most drama associated with it. It just seems sad that a new CV system coming out and all some are wanting to do is be unhappy with it, or wanting to take sides with different developers or whatever.

#66 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:55 PM

A licensed ColecoVision console will have more potential to reach those outside this community.

 

You mean like how the ColecoVision Flashback was on clearance almost immediately after it's initial launch and stores couldn't unload them for twenty bucks and a follow up version of the system was never created because it sold so poorly?

 

The reality is this: The "masses" don't want or need a new $200 ColecoVision compatible system.  Gaming hobbyists, primarily those who are already into and know about the ColecoVision want a new compatible system that you can easily plug right into your HDMI TV.

 

The "masses" want Nintendo, Sega, Atari 2600, aaaand.... that's about it for their retro systems.

 

Online communities like these are what keeps system like ColecoVision, Intellivision, Odyssey 2, Vectrex, Atari Jaguar, etc alive and thriving.  

 

If you think that there is some huge mass market outside of those communities I listed above where hundreds of thousands of casual gamers are sitting on loads of old ColecoVision carts from 1982 just waiting for a new system they can play them on, that's where you're mistaken.



#67 Albert OFFLINE  

Albert

    Quadrunner

  • 34,854 posts

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:42 PM

I agree with Robb on this, the Coleco and ColecoVision names by themselves are not going to sell this system.  The ColecoVision Flashback is a great example of this.  A self-contained "ColecoVision" console with 60-built in games, two controllers, and it even included overlays!  Bearing the colorful ColecoVision logo and priced far less than this new CollectorVision system, and it had distribution in major stores and online retailers.  And it still didn't succeed, which is obvious given it was only produced for a single year. 

 

There are quite a few "clone" consoles out there for different platforms.  Look at how many NES and SNES clones there are.  How many of these NES/SNES clones actually contain "Nintendo", "NES" or "SNES" in their name?  None, probably.  Look at Hyperkin's RetroN consoles, several different consoles sharing that base name, names have nothing to do with the original consoles.  Even the new RetroN 77 is an Atari 2600 console without "Atari" or "2600" in the name, and I'm sure Hyperkin will sell a ton of them.  

 

I also agree with Robb that most enthusiasts who are "plugged in" to the ColecoVision scene, and those who will be the first to buy a new ColecoVIsion console, are either here on AtariAge or on one of the major ColecoVision Facebook pages or groups.  They are the ones who will help spread the word about this system and help to make it a success.  Given the "success" of the ColecoVision Flashback, I do think it will be difficult to sell a $200 system to the "masses" who long ago have moved beyond these old consoles we still admire.  But there should be enough people outside the hobby who will be interested in a new, cartridge-based ColecoVision that will allow CollectorVision to sell a reasonable number of them.  Especially if the larger gaming news websites pick up on it (and certainly some of them will). 

 

 ..Al



#68 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:50 PM

 
I didn't say that "AA is the CV Homebrew scene" I said that I *think* the majority of people who are part of the community (read: buy homebrews, are currently playing and enthusiastic about ColecoVision, are involved in the up-to-date news on what is happening with the further development of the system, etc) are either here or on one of the following pages:
 
 - AtariAge Forums (46,000 members)
 - ColecoVision Fan FB page (35,000 members)
 - ColecoVision Lunatics FB Group (3,400 members)
 - Coleco ADAM FB Group (660 members)
 - ColecoVision Subreddit (445 members)
 
If there is some other giant community out there that is unbeknownst to the rest of us, please do tell!  It's always great to be able to share stories and news with other people who enjoy this system!
If you think your "average retrogamer" are the majority of people who are purchasing ColecoVision homebrews or Super Game Modules and AREN'T a member of one of those ColecoVision communities I posted about above, I think that is where you are mistaken. 


And I didn't say "you", I said "people". It's not the first time I've read such comments. Nor did I say there is a giant community somewhere.

My point: there are individuals out there, far more than you know, who are huge fans of CV and quietly go about their lives supporting new homebrews and buying products, completely devoid of the CV drama that has been getting noticeably worse lately here. I see this poll as nothing more than fanning unneccesary flames.

#69 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:58 PM

My point: there are individuals out there, far more than you know, who are huge fans of CV and quietly go about their lives supporting new homebrews and buying products,

 

Yeah, I don't think that's the case, but hey, if you're right, that's great and a huge win for everyone, but based on the numbers I see of homebrews sold and the number of people in the various online communities, there aren't that many hiding in the shadows.

 

You seem to think that people who are part of those communities are 1:1 involved in any "drama" which is also not the case.  And by you coming on here and continuing to make the statements that you are, all you're doing is just carrying out that drama even further with, IMO, made up facts.  So welcome to the club! :P 



#70 mr_me OFFLINE  

mr_me

    River Patroller

  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:09 PM

Where are most of the coleco vision fans, on facebook or atariage? Not all 46k atariage members are cv fans. I thought the point was that most cv fans are not on atariage and won't register here just to vote in the poll.

#71 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:12 PM

I thought the point was that most cv fans are not on atariage and won't register here just to vote in the poll.

 

There actually wasn't a point.  Not one grounded in any sort of factual reality, anyway. 



#72 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:00 PM

 
There actually wasn't a point.  Not one grounded in any sort of factual reality, anyway. 

Why, because you say so? Your own 30 second google search results further proved that the majority of CV enthusiasts are NOT on AA (unless you think each and every AA member is a CV fan?)...yet you and others talk about 'the community', when you should specifically be talking about 'the AA CV community'. And the small amount of votes in this poll indicates how little retrolucid should 'reconsider his position', or however it was put. It's not indicative of 'the' CV community, at all.

I get that you (and many others) don't like Cardillo. But that will not stop me or others from buying a quality Coleco branded product. It also doesn't mean I or anyone else has some kind of lack of respect or poor values: it means I just do not care about the dirty laundry. I do care about supporting some interesting new CV products.

But since you since you brought up the CV Flashback...

That it was a 'commercial failure' has plenty to do with any number of variables, not just name brand recognition (which was quite possibly the biggest thing it had going for it!)

I eagerly waited for that system myself until I found out:

-the price (too high, plus shipping to Canada, because I didn't see it anywhere at regular retail, eg Walmart)
-the game selection (at the time, but looking at the list now, they covered a lot of great titles...I'm not that big if a DK fan to miss it, but maybe others did?)
-the joysticks weren't backwards compatible (like most FB Atari sticks were)
-the overall quality of the unit (a quick scan of Amazon feedback was all it took to convince me; tack on ATGames reputation and that was it)

I am sure that many people did recognize the logo and bought it on name recognition alone...maybe not as many as ATGames would have liked, but I'm sure that plenty were returned for QC issues or other other reasons. It can't simply be chalked up to low brand recognition. If it was a better product, it would have sold better...it certainly wouldn't have hurt, even though we all know the slim margins that ATGames works with.

Edited by atarilovesyou, Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:14 PM.


#73 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:13 PM

Why, because you say so? 

 

No, because I'm using *actual data* from real-life situations to base my comments on and when even the owner of AtariAge who has been doing this for 20-something years agrees with what I posted because he knows my information isn't a bunch of made-up garbage isn't good enough for you, all I can do is sit back and laugh because your posts are pure comedy.

 

Please go make up more "facts" and post them to the forum. I'm having a very busy night working on projects and I could use the break for some solid entertainment.  And for that I thank you.



#74 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

atarilovesyou

    River Patroller

  • 2,464 posts

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:31 PM

 
No, because I'm using *actual data* from real-life situations to base my comments on and when even the owner of AtariAge who has been doing this for 20-something years agrees with what I posted because he knows my information isn't a bunch of made-up garbage isn't good enough for you, all I can do is sit back and laugh because your posts are pure comedy.
 
Please go make up more "facts" and post them to the forum. I'm having a very busy night working on projects and I could use the break for some solid entertainment.  And for that I thank you.


Your information? And what information is that? Your biased opinions regarding who should do what and with whom?

I read what Albert had to say and respect his opinion...which is completely opposite to what I think of what you have to offer on his topic (have you bothered to read your own inconsistent posts?)

Anyways, you have yourself a nice night of projects.

#75 TPR OFFLINE  

TPR

    River Patroller

  • 2,007 posts
  • Location:Orlando, FL

Posted Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:35 PM

Anyways, you have yourself a nice night of projects.

 

giphy.gif






0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users