deepthaw Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 This is not really true, at least not on a CRT, though it depends here on personal definition of "massive". For me the difference can be, ahem, "substantial", but not as big as RF vs RGB for example. The point being, is that in the CRT "community" the received wisdom has it that using anything below S-Video is anathema, makes the games totally unplayable and will give you eye cancer or some such. This is just silly, because composite is perfectly functional, as long as you don't obsess over it and keep your nose further than few inches from the TV surface. Sure, it's good to try for the higher options but it's not always possible. For me it's always been: Composite is a massive improvement over RF. S-Video is a substantial improvement over composite. Component is a mild improvement over S-Video. RGB is a slight improvement over Component. S-Video seems to be the sweet spot of diminishing returns on improved video connectivity in the analog era. That said, I've been playing my Genesis via composite until there's an HD Retrovision restock, and I've been having plenty of fun - and it actually looks better than I remembered and it doesn't feel nearly as "urgent" to upgrade as I thought it would. (I still plan on it, though - if only to have the best quality possible when I finally get an OSSC.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) For me it's always been: Composite is a massive improvement over RF. S-Video is a substantial improvement over composite. Component is a mild improvement over S-Video. RGB is a slight improvement over Component. S-Video seems to be the sweet spot of diminishing returns on improved video connectivity in the analog era. That said, I've been playing my Genesis via composite until there's an HD Retrovision restock, and I've been having plenty of fun - and it actually looks better than I remembered and it doesn't feel nearly as "urgent" to upgrade as I thought it would. (I still plan on it, though - if only to have the best quality possible when I finally get an OSSC.) Component video is newer than RGB. Component carries digital signals up to Full HD 1080p. RGB is analog. Edited July 27, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) Component video is newer than RGB. Component carries digital signals up to Full HD 1080p. RGB is analog. This is completely wrong. Component video YPbPr, is not digital. It is an analog connection. Edited July 27, 2018 by keepdreamin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepthaw Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Component video is newer than RGB. Component carries digital signals up to Full HD 1080p. RGB is analog. I could have *sworn* component (at least the component cables I used to connect my DVD player to my CRT, and later my Xbox 360 to my HDTV) was analog and that was part of the reason for the move to HDMI - to enable HDCP and enforce digital copy protection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YPbPr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepthaw Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 This is completely wrong. Component video YPbPr, is not digital. It is an analog connection. To be fair: This *does* get to Iceman's point of terminology overload. Component is *usually* used to refer to YPbPr, but can *technically* refer to any kind of signal that breaks up the video over multiple signals, including some digital signals. That means you could technically refer to s-video as component (since it splits the picture into luma and chroma), but in practice nobody would actually do that. But when somebody says component, 99% of the time: they're talking about analog YPbPr component via those cables that use the same RCA connectors that composite video uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 This is completely wrong. Component video YPbPr, is not digital. It is an analog connection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_component_video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepthaw Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_component_video https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/55147/ycbcr The component people usually refer to when talking about gaming systems/home entertainment devices is analog component video. I'm starting to see why Sharp advertised those connectors on the back of my TV as "Colorstream" rather than component now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_component_video You do realize that link says YCbCr not YPbPr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_component_video Really? Then back to your original statement, component video isn't older than RGB, because RGB is "component video" as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 You do realize that link says YCbCr not YPbPr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 This whole thread and the one from yesterday is an exercise in: "This thing exists." "No it doesn't! You don't know what you're talking about!" "Yes it does!" *shows link to existence* "That's not what I meant! The US didn't have those, so it doesn't matter anyway!" Rinse, Repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taijigamer Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 YCbCr refers to the digital format. YPbPr refers to the analogue format. As previously said, when talking about video games consoles, YPbPr is used. Digital YCbCr is probably only seen in industry use, ie filming, medical imaging etc. Our medical monitors used for key hole surgery have all the inputs (RGBS, YCrCb, RGBHV, DVI, HDMI) in individual BNC connector format (except DVI and HDMI). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 This is just getting plain ridiculous. Context is everything, this is a retro gaming site after all. When retro consoles are discussed having component video mods, it's analog YPbPr. When RGB to Component converters are being discussed regarding retro consoles, again, analog YPbPr. When HD retrovision sells their component cables for SNES and Genesis, again, analog YPbPr. When people talk about component cables for the Wii, analog YPbPr. When CRTs are being talked about with component video inputs, YPbPr. Yes, any video source that has multiple signal paths for information is a "component video" format, big deal. If you can grasp the context of what's being discussed, none of the terminology is confusing. That's great "component video" can be found referring to some random digital format, but how is that relevant? Again, retro gaming site. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) When a Blu-Ray player, or a progressive scan DVD player (or a Sony PS2) is connected to an HDTV using component cables (Red Green Blue), and outputs a 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p HD signal - it is Digital Component video. Any video display device sending a signal that is EDTV (480p) or higher is sending a digital signal, not an analog signal. https://gist.github.com/jonlabelle/7834592 The shorter version being: Nobody really called it "component video" until Progressive Scan DVD players and HDTV formats were being used. The name Component video was adopted to differentiate it from S-Video and Composite video. Edited July 27, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 Component video is newer than RGB. Component carries digital signals up to Full HD 1080p. RGB is analog. RGB is a color model. Component contains video source that is comprised from the RGB model. Whether analog or digital they are both going to be creating video from the RGB color model right? I really dislike the way RGB is tossed around like it's it's own separate video format. When in reality RGB is in all formats, how it is separated is what is different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I think I'll stick with Wikipedia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 When a Blu-Ray player, or a progressive scan DVD player (or a Sony PS2) is connected to an HDTV using component cables (Red Green Blue), and outputs a 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p HD signal - it is Digital Component video. Any video display device sending a signal that is EDTV (480p) or higher is sending a digital signal, not an analog signal. No. YPbPr is an analog format that is capable of carrying HD resolution signals. Just because the resolution is higher than 480i, doesn't automatically make it digital. When an original Wii is plugged up by official Nintendo Component cables, and set to output 480P, that is still an analog video source that needs to be passed through an A/D converter before the HDTV can display it. When a Playstation 2 or an original XBOX is plugged up to an OSSC or Framemeister by component cables at higher resolutions, that is still an analog signal that is being converted for a digital output over HDMI. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) No. YPbPr is an analog format that is capable of carrying HD resolution signals. Just because the resolution is higher than 480i, doesn't automatically make it digital. When an original Wii is plugged up by official Nintendo Component cables, and set to output 480P, that is still an analog video source that needs to be passed through an A/D converter before the HDTV can display it. When a Playstation 2 or an original XBOX is plugged up to an OSSC or Framemeister by component cables at higher resolutions, that is still an analog signal that is being converted for a digital output over HDMI. Component - Y Pb Pr consists of a Luma signal (Y) and two Chroma signals. This is why you can't just call anything with red green and blue rca jacks "component" video. Component video refers to Y Pb Pr or YCbCr RGB refers to discrete Red, Green, and Blue signals with Sync and Luma separated. Edited July 27, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Yay for component cables! Use 'em when you can. Boo for SCART ('Murica!)! Relax about the rest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 No. YPbPr is an analog format that is capable of carrying HD resolution signals. Just because the resolution is higher than 480i, doesn't automatically make it digital. When an original Wii is plugged up by official Nintendo Component cables, and set to output 480P, that is still an analog video source that needs to be passed through an A/D converter before the HDTV can display it. When a Playstation 2 or an original XBOX is plugged up to an OSSC or Framemeister by component cables at higher resolutions, that is still an analog signal that is being converted for a digital output over HDMI. Exactly this. That's why my Xbox outputs jailbars at 1080i - it's an analog signal that's being stretched to its limit with the crappy Connexant video signal processor. If it was digital there'd be no jailbars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 But when you plug a Sega Genesis, using Sega-made RGB cables into that same input on an HDTV, you get *nothing* because the Genesis RGB separates the Sync and Luma output that true analog component video carries. Component - Y Pb Pr consists of a Luma signal (Y) and two Chroma signals. This is why you can't just call anything with red green and blue rca jacks "component" video. Component video refers to Y Pb Pr or YCbCr RGB refers to discrete Red, Green, and Blue signals with Sync and Luma separated. Ok, and? You're not telling me anything I don't already know. The statement you just made about a PS2 and progressive DVD player putting out digital video because it's 480P or higher is 100% not correct. The signal coming out of the end of those component cables from a Wii, Xbox, Xbox 360, Gamecube, PS2 is analog, even if the resolution is 480P or higher. Still analog. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ragan Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Why not? Scart is a viable solution for RGB for me here in the US, for both my Framemeister and CRT. I use a scart to component adapter for my CRT. Others who want to get more serious use a PVM or mod a TV for RGB. iceman, you completely failed the thread that got locked. You proved you didn't know much about this topic. But I hope you learned something. I'd like to know more about this SCART to component adapter. I tried using an SCART to HDMI adapter but it's got issues. The picture gets blurry when anything scrolls, the edges of pixels are soft, and of course it requires a power supply. It's not an ideal solution, is what I'm saying. Recently I tried connecting my Genesis to a VGA monitor which supposedly supported a 15khz signal. That went about as well as expected (poorly). I might try a Gonbes 8200 next, but I'm so weary of this that I'm just as likely to say "screw it" and buy a Minigen HD instead. Or maybe I'll finally break down and get those HD Retrovision cables, because I've already spent at least that much on alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxpressed Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 This page helped me. http://retrorgb.com/rgbguide.html 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I'd like to know more about this SCART to component adapter. I tried using an SCART to HDMI adapter but it's got issues. The picture gets blurry when anything scrolls, the edges of pixels are soft, and of course it requires a power supply. It's not an ideal solution, is what I'm saying. Recently I tried connecting my Genesis to a VGA monitor which supposedly supported a 15khz signal. That went about as well as expected (poorly). I might try a Gonbes 8200 next, but I'm so weary of this that I'm just as likely to say "screw it" and buy a Minigen HD instead. Or maybe I'll finally break down and get those HD Retrovision cables, because I've already spent at least that much on alternatives. You can get the converter on Amazon for I think like 60 bucks (though you'll need either a breakout dongle for audio or a SCART cable with audio jacks desperate). Works well, though the colors may need adjusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) I'd like to know more about this SCART to component adapter. I tried using an SCART to HDMI adapter but it's got issues. The SCART to component adapter he's talking about is an analog to analog converter. They've been around in various forms before the days of HDMI. They take analog RGB and convert it for displays (like CRTs sold in the US) that have analog YPbPr component inputs. This is also what the HD Retrovision SNES and Genesis cables are doing. Something like the CSY 2100 and its clones are analog RGB to analog Component (YPbPr) converters. If you're trying to go the PVM route, but can't get your hands on one, getting a consumer Trinitron that has component inputs and then using a RGB to Component converter (or HD retrovision cables) with it for your RGB consoles is the next best thing. If your HDTV flat panel has component inputs, they are still analog YPbPr. Just because the HDTV has them doesn't make the input digital, the TV is doing an internal analog to digital conversion with that component source. You're at the whim of whatever quality the HDTV internal scaler is capable of. The SCART to HDMI adapter you're talking about is analog to Digital, for that you really need something like the OSSC. The fact you mention the one you tried gets blurry when it starts scrolling tells me the converter you were using does not recognize 240P vs 480i. It was treating a 240P console source as interlaced video, instead of a progressive image. Your image gets messy when this happens. All* cheap SCART to HDMI converters do this, they can't tell that 240P is not 480i. Something like the OSSC can recognize 240P as a progressive image and covert it to HDMI. If you want a visual explanation, again, My Life in Gaming has you covered. Watch starting at 6:30 Edited July 28, 2018 by keepdreamin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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