Confusion about 400 vs 800 RAM and games

[CZroe]

Was putting all my stuff away when I noticed something that really sums up the “confusion” mentioned in the title of this thread:

 

The 400 isn’t exactly considered user-upgradable to 48k, since it requires physical modification. It’s weird to me that they’d even mention it if it really took 48k. Of course, we already confirmed that it runs on 16k just fine, in direct contradiction to the box. The box very clearly says “Cartridge Version” in multiple places, so this isn’t a case of them using the same box for multiple versions and saying “48k” to be on the safe side.

Edited October 3, 2018 by CZroe

[Starglider01]

Was putting all my stuff away when I noticed something that really sums up the “confusion” mentioned in the title of this thread:

 

The 400 isn’t exactly considered user-upgradable to 48k, since it requires physical modification. It’s weird to me that they’d even mention it if it really took 48k. Of course, we already confirmed that it runs on 16k just fine, in direct contradiction to the box. The box very clearly says “Cartridge Version” in multiple places, so this isn’t a case of them using the same box for multiple versions and saying “48k” to be on the safe side.

Cracy!

 

Thanks!, Starglider aka ԹҽɾíƒɾɑϲԵíϲ's RҽԵɾ๏ RҽϲíԹҽs

[emoji973]️ http://youtube.com/perifractic

[emoji973]️ http://patreon.com/perifractic

[Kr0tki]

The box very clearly says “Cartridge Version” in multiple places, so this isn’t a case of them using the same box for multiple versions and saying “48k” to be on the safe side.

Look at the box scans at Atarimania. Broderbund apparently revised their box later to fix this error.

[Starglider01]

Fascinating stuff! No wonder I was confused. (wouldn't be the first time.)

 

Thanks!, Starglider aka ԹҽɾíƒɾɑϲԵíϲ's RҽԵɾ๏ RҽϲíԹҽs

[emoji973]️ http://youtube.com/perifractic

[emoji973]️ http://patreon.com/perifractic

[tjlazer]

Just like the Commodore 64, the Atari 400/800 had a lot of the early game titles on Cartridge. Most were 8k and 16k, just like on the Commodore 64. The memory was limited on the Atari though. But it was upgradable to 48k easily. Yes it was harder on the 400 but Atari did sell a kit for it. No 3rd party hacks! To answer your question though, most later titles, like on the Commodore 64, came on disk. And those required more memory. Hence the need to get them up to 48k. If you notice a lot of earlier disk titles required 48k. But a lot of the Cartridges were 8/16k. Seems *some* later cartridges needed more but that mostly came out later with the XL/XE line... When the 800XL/65XE/130XE came out, more games came out to support 64k, but because of the issue with older machines, most only supported 48k so they could also be used by the older models (kinda like the Commodore 16 vs Plus 4 issue with 16k RAM being used) When the XEGS came out, a lot of carts came out for it that used 64k though. So I would say it's about 50/50 on titles that used 16k RAM vs 48k+. I would say it's a good idea to get the 400/800 to 48K at a minimum, as a large percentage of games will not run as they need 48k. I would say 64k games are a small number. Maybe 10-15%. More recent games/demos will use 64k to 128K or more...

Edited October 5, 2018 by tjlazer

[+slx]

Was putting all my stuff away when I noticed something that really sums up the “confusion” mentioned in the title of this thread:

 

The 400 isn’t exactly considered user-upgradable to 48k, since it requires physical modification. It’s weird to me that they’d even mention it if it really took 48k. Of course, we already confirmed that it runs on 16k just fine, in direct contradiction to the box. The box very clearly says “Cartridge Version” in multiple places, so this isn’t a case of them using the same box for multiple versions and saying “48k” to be on the safe side.

 

As there were several 48K upgrades for 400s it's not that weird. My best friend got a 400 in 82 and had it upgraded to 48K after a couple of months at most in order to be able to use it with an 810.

[CZroe]

 

As there were several 48K upgrades for 400s it's not that weird. My best friend got a 400 in 82 and had it upgraded to 48K after a couple of months at most in order to be able to use it with an 810.

Yes, but the kit requires cutting and soldering and, thus, is not intended to be installed by the average user. The 400 requires a significant-enough modification such that it would not make sense to label it as 400-compatible when they should be listing the memory requirement instead. Of course, this particular game didn’t actually require more than the base 16k, so that label is correct (in direct contradiction to the box).

[+slx]

Yes, but the kit requires cutting and soldering and, thus, is not intended to be installed by the average user. The 400 requires a significant-enough modification such that it would not make sense to label it as 400-compatible when they should be listing the memory requirement instead. Of course, this particular game didn’t actually require more than the base 16k, so that label is correct (in direct contradiction to the box).

 

I assume most of those 48K expansions for 400s were installed by dealers/service centers back then, so lack of "self-installability" doesn't necessarily make it a fringe piece of hardware. I have not come across a lot of 400s so far, but it would be interesting how many of those around have >16K.

[_The Doctor__]

Just remember back then, it was not unusual for the general population to take their computer in for an Atari store, Atari service, or accredited repair center to have all modifications done including putting cards in and out of an 800! Many parents did not want that thing touched by any hand without a guarantee behind it. I was NOT the norm for an 8 year old who already built his own radios (am/fm and otherwise), to working inside televisions and playing with computers. Not everyone would trust like that. Many folks brought their 400's in to service centers for memory upgrades, many shops did the install for free or a nominal fee.

The game was indeed 400 compatible, but with the caveat that it had the upgrade done for 48k. This is no different than any x86 or 088 of the day.

I mean if you want you can go further and see all those games for intel based machine... in the fine print demanding a sound card or specific video card to work (and people didn't go on about the labeling, they either returned it or had the cards installed...)

 

I find the labeling sufficient, but a sticker saying 48k would have helped those with limited understanding back in the day..

Edited October 5, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[Geister]

I upgraded my 400 rather quickly to 48K with a Mosaic memory board kit. I vaguely recall having to solder in some wires. It was the addition of a B-Key keyboard replacement that made it truly useful however.

 

I liked your Extreme Atari 800XL restoration video. Amazing work.

[+Nezgar]

When you think about the memory map, a 16K 400 with a 16K Cart present is only 16K short of the RAM compared to a 48K 400 or 800. With ROM program mapped to the area where RAM doesn't exist, RAM you still have almost all of the base 16K for screen and game state. A 32K 400 would appear identical to a fully upgraded machine...

 

XE carts that do the disk drive emulation I think can turn themselves off and on for each sector read, so the normal 8 or 16K cart memory is still usable as RAM? I'm thinking of Flight Sim II as an example. If you put the real flight sim II disk in a drive and turn it on, the cart will happy continue loading data from the real drive... and again fall back to the cart if the drive is turned off seamlessly

[_The Doctor__]

ram under rom sir sort of

[CZroe]

...

The game was indeed 400 compatible, but with the caveat that it had the upgrade done for 48k. This is no different than any x86 or 088 of the day.

I mean if you want you can go further and see all those games for intel based machine... in the fine print demanding a sound card or specific video card to work (and people didn't go on about the labeling, they either returned it or had the cards installed...)

 

I find the labeling sufficient, but a sticker saying 48k would have helped those with limited understanding back in the day..

...except, as I demonstrated, the game works just fine on an 800 with only 16k, so it’s 400-compatible, alright: No memory upgrade required. I find the labeling sufficient too. The label says 400/800 compatible because it is, even with 16k. It’s the box that’s wrong. Krotki pointed out that the box was even revised to fix this. If it really did require 48k then the label likely would have said that instead of just “For the Atari 400/800 Computer.”

 

Having the correct and incorrect requirements for the original version and the requirements for the XE remake means that for the given title, “Choplifter!”, we have three seemingly-contradictory sets of requirements. No wonder things got confused!

Edited October 6, 2018 by CZroe

[tjlazer]

Maybe the box was for the disk version! That needs 48k

[CZroe]

Maybe the box was for the disk version! That needs 48k

I thought that at first too but...

...the box clearly says “cartridge version” in multiple places. Not a sticker either, ...

 

...so this isn’t a case of them using the same box for multiple versions and saying “48k” to be on the safe side.

[emoji6] Edited October 6, 2018 by CZroe

[scotty]

Easiest way to tell, get the Altirra emulator, set it to 16k and try rom images. Altirra is excellent, and is as close as you are going to get without using real hardware. I have a lot of real Atari hardware, but live in a small condo, so I rely on Altirra. I actually like it almost better than real hardware. Even thought I have an Ultimate 1MB and will get the Incognito 2 if it ever comes out, Being able to change things on Altirra is simple that you can not switch on and off on a real Atari.... PAL/NTSC, OS, Memory, CPU type. Once I played with the Ultimate 1MB in Altirra, I new I had to have one in real life.

[CZroe]

Easiest way to tell, get the Altirra emulator, set it to 16k and try rom images. Altirra is excellent, and is as close as you are going to get without using real hardware. I have a lot of real Atari hardware, but live in a small condo, so I rely on Altirra. I actually like it almost better than real hardware. Even thought I have an Ultimate 1MB and will get the Incognito 2 if it ever comes out, Being able to change things on Altirra is simple that you can not switch on and off on a real Atari.... PAL/NTSC, OS, Memory, CPU type. Once I played with the Ultimate 1MB in Altirra, I new I had to have one in real life.

Curious: Is it possible that some ROMs are unofficially converted from disk even though there’s a proper ROM cartridge version? Could that make a difference?

[_The Doctor__]

by the time we go in circles we are all going to be confused and make miss statement and error in trying to keep all this straight... If you want a little more fuel for the fire... you might be interested to know there was a far greater issue than possible mis labeling...

 

Inside baseball to follow...

 

due to a manufacturing error a number of the cartridges got out with the fingers too short. either from mask or set up the cartridge when inserted on many Atari's failed to work, you would have to pull it out part way to work or elongate the hole(s) in the PCB so it would allow the connector to end up on the fingers instead of mask part of the PCB.

 

People also thought that meant the game wasn't working on certain Atari's, which lead to all kinds of theories and modifications to documentations being changed until the error was discovered. Many of those cartridges were thought to be bad when it was a simple fix. Add that to the pile

 

I still have one of those carts to this day (somewhere). Hole elongated and worked great.

Edited October 6, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[CZroe]

by the time we go in circles we are all going to be confused and make miss statement and error in trying to keep all this straight... If you want a little more fuel for the fire... you might be interested to know there was a far greater issue than possible mis labeling...

 

Inside baseball to follow...

 

due to a manufacturing error a number of the cartridges got out with the fingers too short. either from mask or set up the cartridge when inserted on many Atari's failed to work, you would have to pull it out part way to work or elongate the hole(s) in the PCB so it would allow the connector to end up on the fingers instead of mask part of the PCB.

 

People also thought that meant the game wasn't working on certain Atari's, which lead to all kinds of theories and modifications to documentations being changed until the error was discovered. Many of those cartridges were thought to be bad when it was a simple fix. Add that to the pile [emoji4]

 

I still have one of those carts to this day (somewhere). Hole elongated and worked great.

Reminds me of the “green strip” problem with RetroUSB AVS consoles that have the earlier revision of the cart slot. [emoji4]

 

I’m not very happy with my Ultimate Atari Cartridge having a non-beveled edge connector. After all, the very first time I tested an Atari 800XL a pin got mangled... and I was just switching between a bad copy of Atari BASIC and Pitfall! II to test out the system (didn’t know BASIC wasn’t working). I believe Pitfall! II having a cheaper cart design had something to do with it but it worked fine the first couple times and every time since. Just that one insertion bent a pin and killed the system... temporarily. I had to desolder the cartridge connector, extract the pin, straighten it, and switch it for one of the other presumably less-important pins. It looks and works as good as new now.

 

I literally ordered a replacement Atari BASIC cart yesterday and now I wonder if the solder masking problem was what was wrong with mine. The door on top of a 400/800 pushes the cart down even if I don’t insert it all the way so I’ll have to test that on the 800XL where I can pull it up a bit. Thanks!

Edited October 6, 2018 by CZroe

[_The Doctor__]

Reminds me of the “green strip” problem with RetroUSB AVS consoles that have the earlier revision of the cart slot.

 

I’m not very happy with my Ultimate Atari Cartridge not having a beveled edge on the connector. After all, the very first time I tested an Atari 800XL, a pin got mangled and I was just switching between a bad copy of Atari BASIC and Pitfall! II (didn’t know BASIC wasn’t working). I believe Pitfall! II having a cheaper design had something to do with it but it worked fine the first couple times I tried it and every time since. I had to desolder the cartridge connector, extract the pin, straighten it, and switch it for one of the other presumably less-important pins. It looks and works as good as new now.

 

I literally ordered a replacement Atari BASIC cart yesterday and now I wonder if that was what was wrong with mine. The door on top of a 400/800 pushes the cart down even if I don’t insert it all the way so I’ll have to test that on the 800XL.

Yep, the beveled edge issue continues to this day, I always mention it to people... the older and more worn a connector is the more likely it will happen... that being said, I had to replace more than one connector way back when as thick square pcb's inserted into cart slots or the later xe eci pbi were messed up by those carts, adapters and devices! And that was on brand new machines!

Edited October 6, 2018 by _The Doctor__