Which one to choose?

[Nateo]

I am thinking about buying an Atari 8-bit computer, but which one should I buy? The Atari 400, or the Atari 800? Also, which perphireals should I buy along with it? What are some good games for the 8-bit systems?

[Gunstar]

If your only willing to choose between the 400/800, I'd go with the 800 since it has a full-stroke keyboard (a nice feeling one at that) and three times the memory. Plus, it's built like a tank and just looks too cool. The 400 is going to restrict you to basically only 16k cartridge games and maybe some old cassette games (if you get a 410 or 1010 recorder) without expanding the memory (and the membrane keyboard isn't good for any intense typing anyway). But, if you want to be able to play virtually any game, you'll want to go for an XL or XE model that have 64-128k standard (except for the 600xl which is like the 400, but does have a real keyboard). Even the 800 will play most games, but there are quite a few that use more than 48k (although the majority stuck to 48k for full compatibility). You should get a disk drive, for games, any will do; 810-90k(expandable to 180k), 1050-130k(expandable to 180k), xf551-360k (all Atari brand). There are other 3rd party disk drives like Astra, Percom, and Indus (most 180k). If it's only for games, the computer, disk drive and a tv or composite monitor is all that is needed. If your planning on getting your games off the net, you'll need an A.P.E or SIO2PC cable&software (just type those in as keywords along with "Atari" and you'll find sites for them). Some good games? There are far to many "good" games to even begin listing, as there are thousands of games for Atari computers. The LucasFilm games like Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus, The Eidelon and Koronis Rift are must-haves in my book, but I could give you a list of 50-100 "must haves" just off the top of my head if I felt like typing them all out (I don't). So get your setup, get the LucasFilm games, and then ask about others...I'm sure some other people here will be willing to post some other choices too. Oh yeah, you'll need a good joystick too, some of the Dealers that have links here at AtariAge have nice selections of good joysticks. They also have nice selections of hardware too, but you'll get much better deals on E-bay. For example, the Atari 130xe computer still retails for $150.00 at the dealer sites, but I just won an e-bay auction for a brand new one, still in the box for $32.00! Used ones can be had for less. You'll be able to get a complete system with more than you need off e-bay for a fraction of what the dealers charge, they're actually pretty rediculous with their pricing for hardware...I personally own a 130xe-128k computer(well 2 now, my first is slowly dying, but after 16 years, I'd say that's a good lifespan) and an 800-48k. I love them both too death, and except for about a five year hiates when they were packed away, they've been used virtually every day I've owned them (since '82 with the 800 and it still works like new).

 

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Gunstar ]

[Mindfield]

My personal reccomendation:

 

System: Atari 130XE

Floppy: Atari 1050 single-sided, Enhancd Density (130k) drive with US Doublers (for double density (180k) and blazing speed) or Atari XF551 double-sided, double-density (360k) drive. For a little background, Atari 1050 drives run at a standard speed of 19.2Kbps. With US Doublers installed, it speeds the drive up to 57.6Kbps -- 3 times the speed. The XF551 runs at 28.8Kbps standard.

DOS: SpartaDOS (if you like CLIs) or MyDOS (if you like menu-based DOS). Personally I loved Sparta. It was kinda like the 8-Bit's version of MS-DOS, as it supported batch files and subdirectories. If you can find it, SpartaDOS-X is a great find. It's DOS on a pass-thru cartrige. But if you're still a menu-based DOS sort of guy, MyDOS is the next best thing. Both of these DOSes support double-density and ultraspeed drives. (Standard DOS 2.5 doesn't)

Display: A standard NTSC television, preferably an older one. Monitors do provide a crisper display, but one of the 8-bit's more charming features was its ability to "artifact." Artifacting is a display anomaly that the 8-bit was reliably able to produce that allowed you to generate (fixed) colours in a high resolution (320x192) graphics mode (mode that is normally monochrome. By drawing vertical lines on either even or odd pixel boundaries (1, 3, 5, or 2, 4, 6, etc.) it was able to produce solid red and blue colours in NTSC, or red and green (or was that green and blue?) in PAL. By drawing two vertical lines right next to each other, you produced white. Numerous games, such as Amaurote (a personal favourite), Molecule Man, Chimera, D.R.O.L., Starquake (another favourite) and many others, used this anomaly to advantage to produce high resolution games that were also relatively colourful. The colours were unchangable except to alter luminance (you could change the white colour, too) so it limited the spectrum of colours, but the effect produced was still impressive. Using a monitor or other high resolution display would eliminate the artifacting effect as it was actually able to display the individual lines that ordinarily made up artifacted colour as white. Of course, the downside was that software that did 80 column text looked blurry on old televisions as it used a 4-byte wide font, which meant single-lines to make up the font, which meant the font artifacted like mad, making it difficult to read. So, if you want to use it for gaming, an old television comes highly reccommended. If you want to use it for applications, get a monitor. The 130XE allows you to connect an SC1224 monitor to it. I don't recall if the 800XL had the monitor port.

Optional Accessories The R-Time 8 cartrige is great if you want your 8-bit to have an internal clock. Like SpartaDOS-X, it's a pass-thru cart, meaning you can plug another cartrige into the back of it. Of course, if you had SDX and R-Time 8, plugging a third cartrige would make for a bit of an awkward stack of carts plugged in, especially on an 800XL, where carts plug in on top of the machine. (The XE's cart port is in the rear) A joystick is also an essential item. The standard VCS joystick is good for purists, but I personally favour the Epyx 500XJ. Comfortable, responsive microswitches, a very nice stick overall. You could also get a mouse if you plan to use something like DiamondOS, but since GUI operating systems on the 8-bit never really took off, not much was ever made to use them, so they're more a frivolity than anything. If you plan to connect a printer or a standard RS232 modem, you'll need a P:R: Connection as it contains the ports you'll need. You can also get an MIO (256k or 1 megabyte) that has all the features of the P:R: connection as well as a hard disk port to allow you to connect any ACSI (Atari Computer System Interface) device, such as an SH204 20 megabyte hard drive (affectionately known as the "Shoebox") or Megafile 30/60 meg hard disk, an SLM804 laser printer, or, if you can find it and drivers for it (doubtful), the CDR504 CD-ROM. drive. The MIO also has on-board RAM you can use as a RAMdisk or printer buffer. Both the P:R: and MIO were manufactured by ICD; I don't know if they were remanufactured by anyone, though, or if you can still buy them commercially. Check Bravo Sierra Computers' website to see what they carry.

 

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

[Tempest]

My only beef with the 130XE (and the 65XE for that matter) is that the cartridge slot is in the back making it a pain to plug games in. Other than that it's perfect. Personally I use a XEGS.

 

Tempest

[Mindfield]

The problem with the XEGS (and the 65XE for that matter) is the lack of a PBI (Parallel Bus Interface) slot. This means you can't connect things like an MIO to it. The 130XE features the PBI slot right next to the cartrige port. The 65XE and XEGS don't have this.

[Albert]

I agree with most of Mindfield's excellent comments and thought I'd add a few of my own, since I'm a long-time Atari 8-bit fan. Personally I prefer the 800XL over the 130XE for a few reasons:

 

1) The cartridge port is easier to get at (as Tempest noted).

2) The joystick ports are easier to deal with.

3) I personally like the keyboard on the XL better than the XE. The XE keyboards are too mushy for my taste and it's hard sometimes to know for certain that you've hit a key.

 

I want to second my opinion about SpartaDOS and the R-Time 8. When I was running an Atari 8-bit BBS, I had a SpartaDOS X cartridge, then on top of that an R-Time 8 cart and finally an Atari Rev. C BASIC cart. All stacked into the slot of my 800XL (in this case, perhaps a 130XE would have been better, but I got the 800XL before the XEs came out. And it was upgraded to 256K of memory!)

 

Also, the MIO board is *fantastic* if you can find one. I had the 1MB variety, which I used to its full extent: Huge RAM disk(s?) to hold important BBS files, printer buffer, the modem was plugged into it, plus 2 20MB hard drives. I wouldn't have been able to run the BBS without it. I'm still looking for an MIO board if someone ever encounters one and would like to sell/trade it to me.

 

I also used several US Doublered 1050 drives, so I can vouch for those as well. In addition I had some Indus GT drives, and those were very nice (I still have a few of those..)

 

For displays, I personally prefer the Commodore 1702 monitor, which provides exceptional output when you use a monitor that splits the chroma and luminance signals. For monochrome work (I also had an XEP80) I used an 80-column Magnavox display, which was excellent at the time. But only useful if you're using an XEP80 (the BBS software I was using, Carina II, supported two displays at once, so I could watch BBS users via the XEP80 and edit their stats and permissions using the normal 8-bit output going to my 1702).

 

..Al

[Nateo]

I also want something with a nostalgic kind of feel to it. (like the pop-up cart port)

[Jess Ragan]

The 130XE, definitely. It was a stylish computer well before Apple "introduced" the concept of style to the computer market. I certainly don't regret buying mine, although admittedly, I DID get it at a St. Vincent DuPaul's for eight or so bucks.

 

JR

[Mindfield]

Nateo: Well, only the 400/800 machines had the pop-up cartrige door and the dual cartrige setup (one for BASIC). However, you might find that for the whole 8-bit Atari experience, you might be hampered for several reasons with these models. For starters, the 400/800 line only had the CTIA graphics chip, which meant only graphic modes 0-11. The XL/XE line later upgraded that to GTIA, which featured new extended graphics modes which became the most popular for creating games in. (Particularily mode 15) Second, for the 400 model, you only have 16k of RAM to work with, and a terrible membrane keyboard. The 800 had 48k and a full stroke keyboard, fortunately, but again, it's still less RAM than later models, which had 64k (800XL/65XE) or 128k (130XE) standard.

Mind you, to their credit, the 400/800 machines were built like Sherman tanks. If you'll excuse the analogy, if they'd had those machines in the World Trade Center, they'd be the only things they'd be pulling out of the rubble intact. :-)

 

Albert: Granted, the XLs had nicer feeling keyboards, but I actually got quite used to, and had even come to prefer the XE/ST style keyboard. Mushy it was, but at the same time it felt sort of sleek. Cushiony, if you will. :-) The positioning of the cartrige port was easier on the XLs, granted, but I found that if you had permanent cartriges inserted (SDX, R-Time The XE got them more neatly out of the way. I didn't have a problem with the positioning of the joystick ports, though. The STs take full credit for the world's most inconveniently located joystick/mouse ports. The Mega, though inconvenient, wasn't so bad 'cos the keyboard was light, but lifting an entire 520/1040 to swap joysticks was a royal pain.

 

Jess: My 130XE arrived used. It was, however, a 320k machine, and was the machine used (and even autographed :-) by Red Sonja to run one of our city's most prolific and popular message-only BBSes at the time, The Reach BBS. (Hey, at the time, it was a high honor to have bought the machine that ran one of the best boards around. :-) That same machine went on to run my BBS. It was certainly stylish, and a good complement to the 65XE it replaced. Back then I don't think there was another machine in existence that looked quite so sleek. (Except maybe the jet-black and sexy-looking Enterprise, though that doesn't really count 'cos it was only sold in Europe, and it sorta flopped anyway)

 

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

[Gunstar]

Only the early 400/800 had the ctia chips. by around 1980, they had the GTIA chips. I remember Antic or analog magazine publishing a memory location poke you could input to see which chip your 800 had. I do know the GTIA 800's are more common too.

The 800 I have, that I bought in '82 has the GTIA in it, as I tested for it years ago...

 

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Gunstar ]

[Mot]

No one seems to talk about swapping the guts from one machine to put in another, that people did. I have seen on e-bay, someone selling a XE put into an Atari 800 case (or something). It is one way to use the keyboard you like with the system you like but you are screwing up two machines to make one.

[Albert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindfield:

Albert

: Granted, the XLs had nicer feeling keyboards, but I actually got quite used to, and had even come to prefer the XE/ST style keyboard. Mushy it was, but at the same time it felt sort of sleek. Cushiony, if you will. :-) The positioning of the cartrige port was easier on the XLs, granted, but I found that if you had permanent cartriges inserted (SDX, R-Time

The XE got them more neatly out of the way. I didn't have a problem with the positioning of the joystick ports, though. The STs take full credit for the world's most inconveniently located joystick/mouse ports. The Mega, though inconvenient, wasn't so bad 'cos the keyboard was light, but lifting an entire 520/1040 to swap joysticks was a royal pain.

---

 

You're right about having a stack of cartridges sticking out of an 800XL. With three carts (!) towering out of my computer, I had to be careful not to bump them or I could potentially lock up the machine. And since I was running a BBS which almost always had someone logged on, that was not a a good thing. So having an XE in this case would have been nicer.

 

As for the keyboards, I've encountered at least two different types of keyboards on the 800XL, one that had pretty flat keys and another with more curved key tops. I remember preferring one over the other, but I don't remember what I had now. The first time I played with an XE keyboard I remember it feeling "mushy" as you described. I didn't mind the feel, I just wasn't crazy about the fact that you couldn't always tell if you actually hit the key hard enough, unless you had the volume turned up and the keyclicks turned on.

 

Now, the Mega ST had an awesome keyboard. While the styling is similar to the XE keyboard, the mechanisms are completely different and very comfortable to type on. Certainly my favorite keyboard that Atari ever produced.

 

I completely forgot about the placement of the joystick/mouse ports on the ST until you mentioned it. Those machines had so many built-in ports (even by today's standards!) I guess that was one of the few places they could actually squeeze those ports in. I seem to remember learning how to pull my ST over the edge of the desk to get at the joystick ports without having to lift the machine up.

 

..Al

[Mindfield]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

As for the keyboards, I've encountered at least two different types of keyboards on the 800XL, one that had pretty flat keys and another with more curved key tops. I remember preferring one over the other, but I don't remember what I had now. The first time I played with an XE keyboard I remember it feeling "mushy" as you described. I didn't mind the feel, I just wasn't crazy about the fact that you couldn't always tell if you actually hit the key hard enough, unless you had the volume turned up and the keyclicks turned on.

---

 

I usually did have the volume and key click turned on. But I actually learned to touch-type on that ol' 8-bit, so I was usually fairly certain that I was hitting the keys. Of course, in my later 8-bit years, I usually preferred to have the key click turned off. (I seem to recall adding KEY OFF to my Sparta's autorun batch file)

 

quote

Now, the Mega ST had an

awesome

keyboard.  While the styling is similar to the XE keyboard, the mechanisms are completely different and very comfortable to type on.  Certainly my favorite keyboard that Atari ever produced.

 

I was quite happy with the Mega's keyboard as well -- though coming straight off a 130XE it was an easy progression for me. (Actually I went from 130XE to 1040ST to Mega 4 -- but, generally speaking, same difference) My one gripe about those keyboards though was their life span. Being a touch typist, and having used the computer a great deal besides, I ended up ruining two keyboards because keys started flaking out on me. To make matters worse, there were several models of keyboard available, each with different internal connectors. As luck had it, I had one of the rarer models for which it was more difficult to find replacements -- and those replacements were usually expensive. To add insult to injury, during my stint as a columnist for Current Notes magazine, I was given a little box to review that allowed the ST to connect any PC keyboard. Unfortunately, my oddball keyboard's connection was different, so I couldn't hook it up to review it. :-P

 

quote:

---

I completely forgot about the placement of the joystick/mouse ports on the ST until you mentioned it. Those machines had so many built-in ports (even by today's standards!) I guess that was one of the few places they could actually squeeze those ports in. I seem to remember learning how to pull my ST over the edge of the desk to get at the joystick ports without having to lift the machine up.

 

I could never do that because with my setup the way it was, my cords were almost stretched to capacity, so I wasn't able to pull it too far forward before something came lose. I still think they could have found a more convenient location. The 520ST had them on the side where the floppy in the F models normally went. Of course, being that the floppy went there in the F/FM models, that wasn't very possible, and the other side had the cart port. I'm sure they could have found room on the back though. It wasn't that crowded back there, even with power and reset buttons, MIDI in/out, RF (for M/FM models), monitor, ACSI, RS232 and Parallel ports there. Two 9 pin DIN ports could have squeezed in there I'm sure...

 

The Mega was only slightly better 'cos the keyboard was detached and, obviously, lighter. I'm still not sure why they put one to either side of the keyboard though, instead of both next to each other. Space constraints, I imagine...

[Nateo]

I got the 800. My mom was driving me home from French study group at school, and my mom pointed out that someone was having a garage sale. I looked out the car window and saw ATARI in big red letters on a box. I told my mom to stop the car immediatly, and she stopped at the curb of the road and let me out. Much to my surprise, it was an Atari the Programmer kit. Beside it was an Atari 800 with 48k of RAM, still with the box. There was also a 410 program recorder, and a game called Jawbreaker. He offered 50 dollars for all of it and I immediatly said yes (I was going to pay that much for an 800 without the box and a lot less stuff at 4Jays) There were lots of Atari magazines with it to.

[Nateo]

Oh wait, I got a WICO command control joystick in the box along with the 800 package.

[Gunstar]

Just to let you know: Someone mentioned earlier that they felt an old tv was the best way to hook up Atari's, because of it's artifacting color in monochrome high-res mode, and that monitors would not do this (personally, I felt there were so few games that use this, that I could settle for B&W on those few games). I did not respond right away, because frankly, I've never had my Atari hooked up to a composite monitor. I recently bought an Apple composite monitor that works with my Atari, it is a standard composite monitor with RCA (video) jacks. Well, artifacting works perfectly fine with it (and I assume any composite monitor-since they all work the same-a composite signal through one RCA line), so that person who mentioned artifacting obviously doesn't know what they are talking about. A monitor gives a much sharper, "rf wave" free picture; a very noticable step up from tv, so I'd recommend a monitor still.

It is possible that if you used a composite monitor that has Chroma&Luma seperate inputs like the Commodore 1702 (both video/front and Chroma&Lumina/back jacks), which is the same signal as modern day S-video, that it may effect artifacting, but standard video&composite monitor is fine. I don't know for sure, because I have never had my Atari hooked up with both chroma&lumina jacks either...I bought a 1702 monitor for this, but never got a chance to use it before I moved and left it behind (still waiting for it to be shipped to me). But anywho, if you hook the 800 up with a cable through it's monitor jack to a video input on a modern tv or old composite monitor, the high-res artifacting color is still intact and a much sharper image exists. It does need a special cable in either case, available at Best Electronics and possibly B&C in the links section of AtariAge.

 

To Mindfield: Sorry to step on your toes, but hey, you were wrong. (at least with standard video)

 

Scale of worst to best picture quality: RF, video, chroma&lumina/s-video (800 stops here), rgb, multi-sync rgb (modern day PC's). There is also the newer component video that is used on the latest, top of the line, electronics, but I'm not exactly sure where it fits in since it's for TV's, but I imagine either right before or right after RGB. NTSC only-I've no idea about PAL or SCART or any other world tv standard and their inputs, except that I believe SCART is similiar to RGB in it's connection to components.

 

[ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: Gunstar ]