atari 400

[bradjewell]

a friend of mine used to have a 400, and I was going to check to see if he still did and if I could get it off of him. I was wondering about their rarity. I used to have some fun playing jungle hunt on it.

 

Later,

Brad

[Mindfield]

AFAIK they're not all that rare, though perhaps that might be because they're not that sought after. The 400 is the little brother to the 800, featuring 16k of RAM, single-cartrige slot, rather annoying membrane keyboard (very hard to type on, impossible to touch-type on), no internal BASIC (available on cartrige; machine boots into sketchpad instead if no floppy or cart present), and (like the 800) CTIA graphics chip.

 

It's essentially the predecessor to the 600XL.

[Gunstar]

Only the early models of the 400/800 have the CTIA chip, everything after about '80 has the GTIA chip, including the 400/800. But for the price these things are going for, you might as well get the 800/800-1200XL/65-130XE's. Forget about the 400 or 600xl unless all you plan on doing with it is strictly Cartridge and tape and not even all of them can be used...Also, the CTIA models of the 400/800 are actually pretty rare, chances are you will get the GTIA chip model.

[sdrake]

Just found on of these today in a Thrift for 4 bucks. Figured I would grab it. Went to another Thrift in the same day and found 4 games for it. Had a power supply at home already with no machine, I found a year ago. Worked great. Always pick-up anything that says Atari on it, if I don't have it already, since I might need it later on.

 

Anyway, the serial number on the bottom is 29! Not sure if this means anything as far as rarity, but I figured it was at least one of the first ones off the assembly line in 1979 or was it the hand built one? Figured those would have written by hand serial numbers on them.

[fmctm1sw]

I don't know how rare but I bought the only one I ever saw (in the wild). I like it. Plays Atari 5200 quality games with 2600 joysticks. You can't beat that with a stick as far as I'm concerned....

[Retro Rogue]

quote:

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Originally posted by Freedom Fighter:

I don't know how rare but I bought the only one I ever saw (in the wild). I like it. Plays Atari 5200 quality games with 2600 joysticks. You can't beat that with a stick as far as I'm concerned....

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That's because the 5200 is a 400 in disguise.

That's another reason I like the 400 as well though, great little game machine/computer and (besides the 800) one of the last to feature 4 controller ports.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunstar:

Only the early models of the 400/800 have the CTIA chip, everything after about '80 has the GTIA chip, including the 400/800.

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I believe the GTIA's weren't introduced in a production run until the final early '82 production run (in sync with the 5200, and the change in packaging of most of the Atari products to go with the new color schemes of the 5200/2600).

 

quote:

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But for the price these things are going for, you might as well get the 800/800-1200XL/65-130XE's. Forget about the 400 or 600xl unless all you plan on doing with it is strictly Cartridge and tape and not even all of them can be used

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Actually, cartridge and tape has nothign to do with it really. It has more to do with the size of the game. The 400 can't handle anything above 16K. But within the 16K it can still handle any of the standard peripherals (floppies, tapes, cartridges).

 

quote:

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...Also, the CTIA models of the 400/800 are actually pretty rare, chances are you will get the GTIA chip model.

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Not that rare, considering it was all Atari sold for almost 3 years. When the GTIA chip came out though, Atari owners did have the option of taking their 400 to a service center and having the CTIA upgraded to a GTIA.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindfield:

AFAIK they're not all that rare, though perhaps that might be because they're not that sought after. The 400 is the little brother to the 800, featuring 16k of RAM,

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Actually, the original models features 8K of ram. These could of course be updated to 16K (though officialy only at an Atari Service center since you had to actually open up the 400 casing to do it). There were even 48K upgrades available, though these are far and few between.

 

quote:

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single-cartrige slot, rather annoying membrane keyboard (very hard to type on, impossible to touch-type on), no internal BASIC (available on cartrige; machine boots into sketchpad instead if no floppy or cart present), and (like the 800) CTIA graphics chip.

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It also only has an R/F adaptor port, no composite.

 

Speaking of keyboards, I will be displaying an Atari 400 with full stroke keyboard upgrade in the Atari Computers section of my museum display at the Midwest Classic.

[Nukey Shay]

I would just like to add that most of the commercial 16k disk games I've used ran fine on the 400 (since commercial games don't usually use Atari DOS...which would eat up 2.5k). And there were a couple replacement boards to expand the 400 to 48k (or more)...non-Atari memory, though.

[Gunstar]

Sorry Marty Goldberg, but the disk drives require at least 32k to be used, so the 400 would have to be upgraded to use anything other than a tape or cartridge unless you don't use dos at all and have a 16k program on disk that is self-booting (fat chance finding that). The GTIA was introduced one year after the release of the original CTIA Atari's. How do I know? Because I owned an 800 manufactured in march of 1980 that came with a GTIA standard. I have an ANTIC magazine (or maybe it was Analog) that has an article covering this too, I'll find it and get back to this thread with all the hard facts. YES, the CTIA is very much more rare than the GTIA models. Sorry, wrong on all counts Marty. I know so much about this stuff that it would take all of 10 seconds for me to type in a basic command (PEEK statement) and tell whether it's a CTIA or GTIA model (I'd have to look it up again, so I can't post it here right now). The only thing your right about is that the 5200 and 400 are basically the same internally. By '82, they had released the 1200XL, and 400/800's had had GTIA's in them for a couple years...

 

 

[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Gunstar ]

[Nukey Shay]

32k? I guess I was just delusional, or something. j/k

 

Of course the 400 can use the disk drive (even the early 8k models, I would imagine...so long as you didn't need to use the DUP.SYS file, maybe).

 

An 800 can demonstrate this by simply unplugging the upper two 16k RAM modules.

 

Atari didn't get bad marketing stratagies until later.

 

[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ]

[Gunstar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nukey Shay:

32k? I guess I was just delusional, or something. j/k

 

Of course the 400 can use the disk drive (even the early 8k models, I would imagine...so long as you didn't need to use the DUP.SYS file).

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I could be wrong, but as far as I know, very few games came out on disk that were less than 32k, there might be a couple, but yes, a disk drive can be used without dos on a standard 400. But I never saw a disk based game that was less than 32k. I'd love to know what ones there were...I've seen plenty of tape games for 8-16k and up...

[Nukey Shay]

Most of the tape games that I've come across were also released on disk (as were a lot of cartridges, as well). Later on, the market had many more games released that used more than 16k...simply because people could afford more RAM.

 

And DOS works fine on a 16k 400...what I was referring to was trying to use DUP.SYS (the disk utility package) on an 8k 400 (I only had a 16k one...and I don't have an 8k RAM module to try on my 800). In fact, by using DOS and Atari Basic at the same time, a 16k 400 has just enough memory to call up a graphics 8 screen. This is due to the cart using 5k, and DOS using 2.5k. Since commercial games rarely used either, they had pretty much the whole 16k to use (less zero page and the stack, of course). Many simply used the 4 boot sectors as the loader (512 bytes), which could be re-used as program RAM once the program is in memory.

 

[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ]

[Nukey Shay]

BTW I dunno about an online list that shows the memory requirements for games...but thumbing through old game/computer ad pages, I'd say at least half of the games made before the XL line were 16k or less (and most offered the choice between tape or disk).

[Nukey Shay]

From FAQS.ORG :

 

November (1981): 400/800's begin shipping with the new GTIA chip in place of CTIA,

increasing the palette of simultaneously displayable colors to 256 and adding

3 new graphics modes. CTIA is totally phased out by the end of the year.

 

Jerry Jessop adds:

"The very first proto systems did have the GTIA, but it had some

problems and was not released in the consumer version until 1981. The

GTIA was completed before the CTIA."

 

So your 800 manufactured in '80 must have had an upgrade at some point.

 

[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ]

[joshk]

I have 2 400 that I have had for a long time with 15 carts. I have been tossing around the idea of picking up a 800 to get some games on disk. Do you think it is worth it?

[Nukey Shay]

Definately...as you are missing out on most of the crash-era titles.

 

Since you are considering another system, you might want to find an Atari 130XE instead...which lets you use a speedy little RAMdisk when you are using Basic.

[joshk]

I have bid on several 130XE on Ebay, but lost out on all of them. The 400/600/XE had one of my favorite cart designs with the metal ones.

[Nukey Shay]

quote:

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Originally posted by joshk:

I have bid on several 130XE on Ebay, but lost out on all of them

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That gives you some idea of it's popularity. I would forego evilbay and try to find one in thrifts/flea markets instead.

[joshk]

I go the Actions/Thrift when I can. Had good luck with 2600/7800/NES. Most places that I can goto are about 30-45 minutes away. Thanks for your insight.

[Gunstar]

I suppose it's possible my 800 was upgraded at some point, thanks for the quotes, I've spent all afternoon searching for stuff on the CTIAvsGTIA stuff, of course I was looking through my mags and stuff and just about to go online to see what I could find...anywho, this just means that BOTH Marty and I were wrong, averaged, we're right!

 

About the disk drive thing, I know it's possible to run a disk drive with a 400 and only 16k, but I thought most stuff that was 16k or less only came out on tape/cart. Anywho, my reference to it needing 32k was because Atari (after the initial 400's) only sold 16k memory boards, so one could only upgrade in 16k increments, even if you had the older 8k model 400, IIRK, the 400 only has one memory slot, so replacing the board with a 16k or 32k board was the way to go...am I wrong? Does the 400 have two or three slots enabling the possibility of say a 24k system with an 8k and 16k board?

 

My point initially and still is, that getting an Atari computer with 16k or less is just dumb unless you intend to only use tapes and carts, because of the cheap price of the other 8-bits with more memory, might as well get one of them for little more than the price of a 400, and you can run all those "400/5200" games on them too! Getting a disk drive for a 8 or 16k 400 is a waste of money because you can't use it to it's full potential and the software that can be used is the older stuff that barely looks better than 2600 graphics anyway. I can see having a 400 to use like a console, but anything more and one might as well get a larger machine...same with the 600XL(unless you get the 64k module with it-but by that time a 1200 or 800XL or even an XE wouldn't cost any more. Just look at e-bay, I picked up a replacement 130XE a year ago for just over 30 bucks including shipping...your not going to get a 400 system for much less anyhow...

[Nukey Shay]

I agree...naturally the more memory the system has, the more programs you will have access to. On the other hand...if you already have a 400, a disk drive is still a worthy addition.

 

BTW "Atari"-made RAM upgrades for the 400 only went as high as 32k, I think (that's as high as it could get and still be covered by warranty, and only Atari service people could do it since the 400 has no "module" slot). Other companies (Axlon/Intec) made larger boards up to 384k.

[Nukey Shay]

Scratch that...Mosaic produced a 64k board for the 400, and Magna produced a 1m board for the 800 (!!!).

[Nukey Shay]

Richard Gore produced "Yorkie", a 256k board that plugs into a 64k-expanded 600XL's PBI and is fully compatable with the 130's bank switching format. The Yorkie also works with a stock 800XL.

 

Scott Peterson did a 1088k upgrade for the 130XE (1m + the base 64k).

http://www.atari-history.com/hard_faq.htm

[Nukey Shay]

Don't believe everything on that page, though...

 

"Atari users were notorious for their software piracy"

 

Bullocks, Apple/C64 piracy was much more widespread. They both had larger user bases, though...so the effect was more minimal to the parent.

[Retro Rogue]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunstar:

Sorry Marty Goldberg, but the disk drives require at least 32k to be used,

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They certainly do not. I have one hooked up to my stock Atari 400 right now.

 

quote:

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so the 400 would have to be upgraded to use anything other than a tape or cartridge unless you don't use dos at all and have a 16k program on disk that is self-booting (fat chance finding that).

 

As other people stated, not in the least. It would have to be upgraded to use larger programs, certainly. But most casette games were also released on disk as well.

 

quote:

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The GTIA was introduced one year after the release of the original CTIA Atari's. How do I know? Because I owned an 800 manufactured in march of 1980 that came with a GTIA standard. I have an ANTIC magazine (or maybe it was Analog) that has an article covering this too, I'll find it and get back to this thread with all the hard facts.

 

You're mistaken, and most likely you had a modded model.

 

quote:

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YES, the CTIA is very much more rare than the GTIA models.

 

All but the final production run had CTIA's.

They were finally switched over to GTIA in late '81 and early '82. The GTIA as an upgrade was available before that however.

 

quote:

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Sorry, wrong on all counts Marty.

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Your definition of wrong needs to be updated there. So far the only thing "wrong" was the initial release date was Fall of '81, which ran through early '82.

 

quote:

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I know so much about this stuff

 

Apparently not enough.

 

quote:

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that it would take all of 10 seconds for me to type in a basic command (PEEK statement) and tell whether it's a CTIA or GTIA model

 

It's not some big secret, there's tons of tricks to tell which chip is installed. I must have seen at least 15 of them over the years. Here's one for people right now, that only takes 2 lines of code. In fact, it's another page that listed the GTIA's systems shipping in early '82.

 

quote:

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(I'd have to look it up again, so I can't post it here right now). The only thing your right about is that the 5200 and 400 are basically the same internally. By '82, they had released the 1200XL, and 400/800's had had GTIA's in them for a couple years...

 

Hardly. A)The 1200XL's weren't released until late '82. B) the 400/800 line itself finally cancelled in '83 when the 600 and 800 XL's came out. So you have at most a year that the GTIA models were out vs. the 2 years of CTIA's (with support for CTIA's phasing out in '82).

 

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Don't stick out that tounge unless you intend to use it.

[gyounk]

I finally got my Atari 400 (my first real computer) out of storage. I cannot believe all of the software I have on diskettes still work!

 

My Atari 400 and I went through a lot. Later it was befriended by an Atari 1040ST (my last Atari). This Atari 400 was bought new from Kohl's Department Store back in 1981-1982 timeframe. It has the GTIA chip in it.

 

Just some info on my Atari 400 and Perpherals:

- 64K or RAM (needed this to play Ultima III - Atari 8-bit has the BEST Ultima III version I have seen yet.)

- 1050 Disk Drive (my original RanaDrive died years ago)

- Atari Joystick

- Atari BASIC cartridge

 

I did have a 130XE when those came out but sold that later for my ST.

 

Thanks!

G.