The old portable war!

[Ze_ro]

As we all know, the Lynx was far superior to the Gameboy and the Game Gear... but why did it fail? Was it because the Gameboy was so cheap? Was it because of the lack of games (I personally think the Lynx's library of games is 90% amazing)? Was it because of Nintendo's reputation being better than Atari's at the time?

 

I've always thought it was a mix of all of these. The Gameboy was so cheap for a while, and had so many more games (though they weren't as good as the Lynx games at the time, they won in sheer volume), I think they just flooded everyone else out of the market. It'll be a while before anyone can top Nintendo in the portable market unfortunately

 

(PS - I was just reading through an old EGM where they rated all the game systems. For portables, the Turbo Express got first place, and Lynx got second... good call EGM! )

 

--Zero

[Wntermute]

Lack of plentiful third-party software. Sega and Atari have proven time and again that it takes lots of third-party licensees to make or break a system. Even Nintendo's (apparently) mediocre showing in the N64 is proof. Lack of cost-effective media (IE: CDs instead of costly ROMs) also made N64 among the walking dead.

 

Even Nintendo's made their own share of mistakes.. take the following into consideration:

- Virtual Boy: 'Nuff said

- SNES: If they'd stuck to plans to make a CD add-on, it could've survived a year or two more.

- N64: What ever happened to the disk drive for this? Japan only.. just like the 8-bit. Why let them have all the good toys?

[Gunstar]

I'd have to agree that it's a combination of all of the above, but I think there is an order to it. First, the system NEEDS a lot of advertising and good marketing ploys to attract the customers. The Jaguar eventually got some fantastic games like T2k, Avp, Doom, Iron Soldier, SuperBurnout and others by the time of it's nation wide release in '94, but because of a derth of advertising and good marketing, it still failed with only the terrible 32x and overly expensive/hyped 3DO as competition (they all failed for the same reasons). Once the core user base is established, that will attract the 3rd party developers&publishers which will take the system to the top. But if no one knows about the system (just ask the average joe on the street today what the Jaguar or 3DO is and they'll get a glaze over their eyes) it will die. So first and foremost, the game company needs a few good initial releases, good marketing and then good 3rd party support in that order. If it's a case of the company leading the pack or a close second from the previous generation of consoles, that will initially attract the 3rd party developers and then to continue getting the much needed software the other steps come after, if they fail to do so, 3rd party support will dry up again very quickly.

 

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: Gunstar ]

[Wntermute]

Actually, the SNES CD is not vaporware.. it was just redesigned by its actual creators to not require the SNES "host" and released....

 

..you might know it as the Sony Playstation.

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ze_ro:

Well, I don't think these failed for the same reason at all. The 3DO had power, and it had quite a few good games (I still have never played one of these, but I'm going by magazine reviews). I think the reason 3DO died was entirely because of it's price... the thing started at $700!!

 

As for the 32X... I think people realized it was completely underpowered, and instead of just propping up their Genesis for a week, they waited for the "real" next-gen systems to appear. Well, perhaps this is fairly similar to why the Jaguar died.

 

 

--Zero

---

 

I own both of these machines and about 50 games for each. The 3DO is not as powerful as the Jaguar, it is very close, but not quite. It did have built-in texture-mapping that the Jaguar did not, so if you look at screen shots it sometimes looked better...but the reality is that it isn't more powerful. This is what I mean about it being over-hyped. You don't even own one and ARE going by the magazine HYPE. It's a great system, don't get me wrong, I love it, but the Mag's raved about it and axed the Jaguar, hence the misconceptions. Because of the hype surrounding the 3DO, it attracted the 3rd party developers though, so it has about a 150 games (state side, not counting educational and instructional discs-about 50 of those). The Jag has about 65-70 games for it, but they are all games and the percentage of good to bad games is MUCH higher than the 3DO. The 3DO has a lot of good games, but it also has a TON of crap-far more than the Jaguar. So in the end the amount of high quality games on both systems is really close.

 

Also, the Jaguar was extremely powerful for it's day, don't even try to say it died due to a lack of power like the 32x...just don't go there, that's a load of anti-Jaguar propaganda like the mag's put out.

 

I'm not blowing sunshine up you *ss here, like I said, I own and love both systems. So I know first hand EXACTLY what they are both like and capable of...

[Ze_ro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wntermute:

Lack of cost-effective media (IE: CDs instead of costly ROMs) also made N64 among the walking dead.

---

 

I don't know... I actually prefer cartridges over CD's. You can't fit as much information on to them, but they're more durable, and they just "feel" better somehow.

 

quote:

---

Even Nintendo's made their own share of mistakes.. take the following into consideration:

- Virtual Boy: 'Nuff said

- SNES: If they'd stuck to plans to make a CD add-on, it could've survived a year or two more.

- N64: What ever happened to the disk drive for this? Japan only.. just like the 8-bit. Why let them have all the good toys?

---

 

I always saw the CD as vaporware... it's amazing how much hype EGM gave this thing though... it's as if every issue in the 90's was comparing existing SegaCD games to games they expected to come out for the SNES CD. It's really weird.

 

And I always *hated* how Japan got everything before us... and sometimes we never got it at all! There's a billion great RPG's that never made it across the Pacific for some reason, despite the fact that they would have sold great. This is one thing I always liked about Atari... we got everything first! In fact, I remember reading in a magazine that one of the problems with the Lynx was (in their opinion) that they didn't have Japanese developers! That comment really pissed me off for some reason

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gunstar

it still failed with only the terrible 32x and overly expensive/hyped 3DO as competition (they all failed for the same reasons).

---

 

Well, I don't think these failed for the same reason at all. The 3DO had power, and it had quite a few good games (I still have never played one of these, but I'm going by magazine reviews). I think the reason 3DO died was entirely because of it's price... the thing started at $700!!

 

As for the 32X... I think people realized it was completely underpowered, and instead of just propping up their Genesis for a week, they waited for the "real" next-gen systems to appear. Well, perhaps this is fairly similar to why the Jaguar died.

 

Yes, Atari really should have got more third party support. I was really glad when I saw Doom for the Jaguar, and I remember Mortal Kombat (3? can't remember which) was planned for the Jaguar. Atari has a load of great arcade games that could be ported, but a lot of them are fairly old (by this time, Atari no longer controlled the "Atari" arcade games like Rush and Gautlet), and didn't have as much appeal as games like Street Fighter, Virtua Racing, etc...

 

--Zero

[Gunstar]

See, that the thing, screen shots can be VERY decieving. The fact is that Shockwave's graphics weren't quite as good as Hoverstrike, and when Hoverstrike cd came out with the improved resolution, lighting and other special effects, it blew away Shockwave's barren landscapes (not that Hoverstrike's landscapes aren't somewhat barren, but they are much better than Shockwave's), Also Shockwave's enemies get a LOT blockier when up close (the t-mapping). But, Shockwave does have a better frame rate, although if Hoverstrike's landscapes were as barren, it probably would have had a better frame rate. Seeing the games in motion is what counts though, you can never go by screenshots (or biased reviewer's opinions).

 

Sure the PSX and Saturn are more powerful than the Jaguar, but not by a lot and if Atari had included a t-mapping chip in the cd (which they did not), it would have leveled the playing field again, as the amount of raw polygon power (no t-mapping, just plain poly's) for the three machines is roughly equal. It was just too little too late for the Jaguar/Jagcd. But if the Jaguar had been given a fair shake by the Magazines from the beginning, it would have done better whether or not the Sega and Sony machines were luming closer (and some proper marketing from Atari).

[Gunstar]

Another example of the BS hype that the biased reviewers spread is in a magazine that came out in the fall of '95 compareing the machines technically; they said the Jaguar had 2 megabytes of memory (true) and the Playstation had 16 megabits of memory (also true), but that is exactly the same amount of memory 16megabits=2megaBYTES. It's was very decieving wording that easily fooled the general public and they did this at every turn...

[liquid_sky]

quote

Another example of the BS hype that the biased reviewers spread is in a magazine that came out in the fall of '95 compareing the machines technically; they said the Jaguar had 2 megabytes of memory (true) and the Playstation had 16 megabits of memory (also true), but that is exactly the same amount of memory 16megabits=2megaBYTES. It's was very decieving wording that easily fooled the general public and they did this at every turn...  

 

Why would they want to deceive readers like that I dont understand why they would, as a form of media, who should be unbiased, unfairly attempt to give sony the thumbs up? If i didnt know very much about technology and i was told the Jaguar had 2 megabytes of memory and the PSX has 16 megabits I would think , "hey, 16 is a bigger number it must be better". I dont know why they decided to try to push business away from Atari and toward Sony, but it, out of a lack of better terms, is really f**ked up

[someguy]

>Why would they want to deceive readers like

>that I dont understand why they would, as a >form of media, who should be unbiased,

>unfairly attempt to give sony the thumbs up?

 

HINT: Who did the mags realize they would get more advertising money from, Sony or Atari?

[someguy]

>I was mostly going from what I saw of screenshots. Games like Shockwave looked

>amazing, and far better than the closest that the Jaguar had (Hover Strike).

 

But Hover Strike is not the closest the Jaguar had. HS is generally known as a mediocre game for the Jag. If you want to see better, take a look at CyberMorph, BattleMorph, SkyHammer, IWar, Missile Command 3D, etc.

 

I read a quote somewhere from the folks who programmed BattleSphere saying that even that game reaches only maybe '60%' of the Jaguar's full potential. Imagine what kind of games we might have seen for the Jaguar if Atari had "played its cards" better and made the Jaguar a success with developers.

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by someguy:

>I was mostly going from what I saw of screenshots. Games like Shockwave looked

>amazing, and far better than the closest that the Jaguar had (Hover Strike).

 

But Hover Strike is not the closest the Jaguar had. HS is generally known as a mediocre game for the Jag. If you want to see better, take a look at CyberMorph, BattleMorph, SkyHammer, IWar, Missile Command 3D, etc.

 

I read a quote somewhere from the folks who programmed BattleSphere saying that even that game reaches only maybe '60%' of the Jaguar's full potential. Imagine what kind of games we might have seen for the Jaguar if Atari had "played its cards" better and made the Jaguar a success with developers.

---

 

Exactly.

 

Although, Hoverstrike (at least the cd version which is a LOT better than the cart) does have fantastic graphics and special effects, a lot of people got turned off by the cart version and never really gave the cd version a chance. But, some are turned off anyway because even though the cd version improved everything including the frame rate, it is still slow, but it's a hovercraft and is SUPPOSE to be slow and floaty, people just don't seem to get that or just don't care and give it the thumb down. I on the other hand LOVE the game and it is one of my favorites. I think it really shows some of the potential of the Jag (again, I'm talking cd version), if not in the frame rate department (it's not terrrible, but averages 10-15fps). There are much worse Jag games when it comes to framerate; Supercross3d and checkered flag come to mind...

[Gunstar]

speaking of 60% of the potential, I also read an interview with one of the ScatoLOGIC team (4play-Battlesphere) that basically said the same thing in other words; He said that if he had had more time to rework the polygon engine (which runs at a blazing 60fps as is), he could have DOUBLED the number of polygons...

[Ze_ro]

Well, we all seem to agree that the Jaguar never achieved what it was capable of. It's really a shame this thing didn't catch on, as it could have been something great. I still don't think it could have won the battle against the Playstation and Saturn, at least not without hardware t-mapping.

 

Now that I think about it, the thing that was probably the most hurtful to the Jaguar's reputation (Well, other than the whole "Not really 64-bit" BS) was the initial games available for the system. Most of them really were 16-bit quality games, and many were straight ports of the SNES/Genesis versions (eg, Dragon, Double Dragon 5, Bubsy, etc). And those that were 3D and attempted to show off what the Jaguar could do often had a poor framerate (eg, Hover Strike, White Men Can't Jump, etc). I know Hover Strike is centered around a hovercraft, and I don't mind the handling... but I still think the framerate sucks (And I'm going by the CD version that I have). Titles which really shined, such as Battlemorph for example (Which is a simply amazing game) came too late in the Jaguar's life to really make a difference I'm afraid.

 

As for magazines... I really don't think any of them supported Atari in any respect. I rarely saw them say anything positive about Atari at all, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it had to do with advertising dollars.

 

(I suppose this is getting rather off-topic for the Lynx forum, but oh well )

 

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gunstar:

The 3DO is not as powerful as the Jaguar. You don't even own one and ARE going by the magazine HYPE.

---

 

Well, I was mostly going from what I saw of screenshots. Games like Shockwave looked amazing, and far better than the closest that the Jaguar had (Hover Strike). I guess I can't really refute your claims though, seeing as I have no 3DO to compare to.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gunstar

Also, the Jaguar was extremely powerful for it's day, don't even try to say it died due to a lack of power like the 32x...

---

 

When it initially came out, it was more powerful than anything, but don't forget the timing of it. Even before the Jaguar came out, every other company had hype swirling about all their game systems that would have amazing magical 3D capabilities that outweighed the Jaguar. Even though the Playstation and Saturn didn't come out until quite a bit later, people already knew (or at least believed) that they would be more powerful, and I'm sure a lot of people passed on the Jaguar knowing that something better was just a month or six down the road. To be honest too, they were right. People who actually waited for the Playstation did the right thing, seeing as it killed the Jaguar in sales (I love the Jaguar, but I can admit when it's lost)

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wntermute

Actually, the SNES CD is not vaporware..

---

 

Yeah, I knew about this too... but seeing as it came out as a completely different system, I still consider the "SNES CD" as being vaporware.

 

--Zero

[Gunstar]

Yeah, i guess we really got off topic hear... I totally agree though. It was a combination of no respect from the mags, lack of advertizing and the 16-bit quality of the first games. I agree that Hoverstrikes frame rate sucks (even the cd), but I classify it in the tolerable range, since it is suppose to be a slow moving vehicle anyway and since I went from the 8-bit atari (where games like Rescue on fractalus and Koronis rift-two of my favorites, only ran at about 3-4 frames a second), to the 64-bit Jag. I even like playing Supercross 3d which quite possibly has the worst frame-rate of any 32/64-bit game in the world (3-5fps). I did play Genesis/SNES games, I just never owned them.

So my standards on frame-rate was/is lower than other people's standards.

Battlemorph, Iron Soldier 2, Missle Command 3d and Battlesphere were just starting to tap into the Jag's power and they came out at the end or after, when it was just too late. I do think, however, that Atari gave up too soon and could have been a strong number 3 in the market if they had stuck by their guns and just started upgrading the system with t-mapping/polygon chips in cartridges (and the memory cart for cd), similiar to the way Nintendo extended the life of the SNES with the fx/fx2 chip sets.

Of course none of this would have made a difference in my opinion if Atari didn't start actually advertising the Jaguar with more commercials and at prime time, not 2:00 a.m. during Mystery Science Theater on the Sci-fi channel that has a limited audience already...if you don't hear about a product, how are you going to know to buy it?

[Ze_ro]

I wonder how much extra cartridges would cost if they had an extra t-mapping chip in there. Half the SNES games I have have extra chips in them (DSP, FX, etc), and I got them for the same price, but that was second-hand so who knows.

 

In an attempt to bring this thread back on-topic (Or at least onto Lynx stuff), I bought Steel Talons for the Lynx, and it's not too bad. It's frame rate is low, but tolerable 85% of the time (When other planes are coming at you firing, things slow to a crawl). Does Hard Drivin' have a similar framerate? I'm really surprised they even tried to port these games to the Lynx in the first place.

 

--Zero

[liquid_sky]

The one experiance i had with hard drivin was a choppy jerky experiance. Imagine playing an online shooter with a 14.4 modem and that is how hard drivin feels

[Jess Ragan]

There is no freaking way the Jaguar's hardware was superior to the 3DO's. I mean, really, compare Way of the Warrior to Ultra Vortek, or even better, Total Eclipse to Cybermorph. You could say both games were breathtaking, but only because Cybermorph kept me laughing until I couldn't breath.

 

JR

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jess Ragan:

There is no freaking way the Jaguar's hardware was superior to the 3DO's. I mean, really, compare Way of the Warrior to Ultra Vortek, or even better, Total Eclipse to Cybermorph. You could say both games were breathtaking, but only because Cybermorph kept me laughing until I couldn't breath.

 

JR

---

 

O.k., I'll bite. Total eclipse is a lame "on rails" shooter and it is very easy to get good texture-mapped poly world when it is so narrow and small. Cybermorph was a go-where-you-want, full-fledged WORLDS. Plus it generally had a LOT more polygons on the screen at a time than total eclipse. How you can even compare the two since they are completely different types of games is beyond me. Way of the Warrior? Don't make me laugh!!! That game totally sucks compared to Ultra Vortek, it even sucks compared to Kasumi Ninja! Besides any of that, just because a game may be superior on the 3DO to a game on the Jaguar, doesn't mean it's more powerful at all; it means that the programmers were much better...I could name a LOT of Jaguar games that are superior to a LOT of 3DO games too, but again, this is due to superior programmers doing the game, not necessarily superior hardware...Way of the Warrior...ha!ha!ha!ha!hehehehehehehe what a joke!!! I own that game as well as Total Eclipse, and WOTW BLOWS!! Total eclipse is good for a on-rails shooter, but it would ahve been better if it had entire worlds. Compare Cybermorph's sequal, Battlemorph to Total Eclipse too, T.E. doesn't stand a chance! Do you even own a Jaguar? Or are you just going by screen shots and lame, biased, reviews? PLEASE! There are MUCH better 3DO games to compare to Jag games than those two anyway!!!

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ze_ro:

I wonder how much extra cartridges would cost if they had an extra t-mapping chip in there. Half the SNES games I have have extra chips in them (DSP, FX, etc), and I got them for the same price, but that was second-hand so who knows.

 

In an attempt to bring this thread back on-topic (Or at least onto Lynx stuff), I bought Steel Talons for the Lynx, and it's not too bad. It's frame rate is low, but tolerable 85% of the time (When other planes are coming at you firing, things slow to a crawl). Does Hard Drivin' have a similar framerate? I'm really surprised they even tried to port these games to the Lynx in the first place.

 

--Zero

---

 

I recently ordered Steel Talons too, but the copy I got didn't work (brand new too). So I'm still waiting on it's replacement to arrive. I thought the frame rate was pretty good on the emulator, which is generally slower than the lynx (at least on my computer), so I figure it should be prtty good.

[someguy]

The Jaguar part of this thread is interesting, so I'm going to copy my last post over to that forum.

 

PS. I also have a cpair of Lynx IIs with about 2 dozen carts. It's also a great system!

[Jess Ragan]

"Total eclipse is a lame "on rails" shooter and it is very easy to get good texture-mapped poly world when it is so narrow and small. Cybermorph was a go-where-you-want, full-fledged WORLDS. Plus it generally had a LOT more polygons on the screen at a time than total eclipse."

 

Slooooow, flat-shaded polygons.

 

"How you can even compare the two since they are completely different types of games is beyond me."

 

They're both good demonstrations of their respective systems' abilities. Or in the Jaguar's case, the lack thereof.

 

"Way of the Warrior? Don't make me laugh!!! That game totally sucks compared to Ultra Vortek, it even sucks compared to Kasumi Ninja!"

 

Now that's just ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if Ultra Vortek was better than Way of the Warrior, but Kasumi Ninja? Personally, I wasn't that fond of Way of the Warrior either but as far as graphic output is concerned, it obliterates similar Jaguar games. Heck, the resolution and color output in Way is superior to many fighting games available for the Saturn and Playstation.

 

"Do you even own a Jaguar?"

 

No, but I have spent time with it when the system was released, and I never really cared for it. I always had a hard time understanding why the system had such rabid fans, because from what I played of the Jaguar it didn't seem to deserve them. Cybermorph was OK (not pretty or intense but the laid back pace does make it kind of relaxing), and Tempest 2000 is quite nice (which is why I'm glad I own the smoother Saturn version) but most of the other titles on the system were, well, pretty pathetic.

 

"Or are you just going by screen shots and lame, biased, reviews?"

 

My own lame bias actually. By the way, I'd tend to agree with the game magazines... the Jaguar was pretty underwhelming. Atari could have done better. Unfortunately, I don't think many Atari fans are willing to acknowledge this. I've noticed this with 7800 fans as well... they'll completely ignore the system's lesser qualities and delude themselves about the system's games, which in all honesty were only occasionally as good as their NES counterparts. I remember having a conversation about the 7800 and NES versions of Galaga and one Atari fan just could not bring himself to see that the 7800 was clearly, CLEARLY the less accurate translation of the two (I'll be happy to give you examples if you want them).

 

Don't get me wrong. I've had a lot of fun with the earlier Atari consoles, but I can't slap on the rose colored glasses and pretend that *everything* the company did was great. And on the flip side of the coin, I think peoples' view of the 3DO was unfairly negative. Yes, it was overpriced. Yes, it sold pretty poorly. Yes, it had controllers that were even worse than the Jaguar's. But the 3DO was incredibly powerful at the time it was released. I kept seeing games on the system that seemed like a true step above titles for the Genesis and Super NES, and Jaguar games just never seemed to reach that plateau of audiovisual quality.

 

JR

[someguy]

This 3DO vs. Jag thread has moved over to the Jaguar forum where it belongs.

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jess Ragan:

"Total eclipse is a lame "on rails" shooter and it is very easy to get good texture-mapped poly world when it is so narrow and small. Cybermorph was a go-where-you-want, full-fledged WORLDS. Plus it generally had a LOT more polygons on the screen at a time than total eclipse."

 

Slooooow, flat-shaded polygons.

 

"How you can even compare the two since they are completely different types of games is beyond me."

 

They're both good demonstrations of their respective systems' abilities. Or in the Jaguar's case, the lack thereof.

 

"Way of the Warrior? Don't make me laugh!!! That game totally sucks compared to Ultra Vortek, it even sucks compared to Kasumi Ninja!"

 

Now that's just ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if Ultra Vortek was better than Way of the Warrior, but Kasumi Ninja? Personally, I wasn't that fond of Way of the Warrior either but as far as graphic output is concerned, it obliterates similar Jaguar games. Heck, the resolution and color output in Way is superior to many fighting games available for the Saturn and Playstation.

 

"Do you even own a Jaguar?"

 

No, but I have spent time with it when the system was released, and I never really cared for it. I always had a hard time understanding why the system had such rabid fans, because from what I played of the Jaguar it didn't seem to deserve them. Cybermorph was OK (not pretty or intense but the laid back pace does make it kind of relaxing), and Tempest 2000 is quite nice (which is why I'm glad I own the smoother Saturn version) but most of the other titles on the system were, well, pretty pathetic.

 

"Or are you just going by screen shots and lame, biased, reviews?"

 

My own lame bias actually. By the way, I'd tend to agree with the game magazines... the Jaguar was pretty underwhelming. Atari could have done better. Unfortunately, I don't think many Atari fans are willing to acknowledge this. I've noticed this with 7800 fans as well... they'll completely ignore the system's lesser qualities and delude themselves about the system's games, which in all honesty were only occasionally as good as their NES counterparts. I remember having a conversation about the 7800 and NES versions of Galaga and one Atari fan just could not bring himself to see that the 7800 was clearly, CLEARLY the less accurate translation of the two (I'll be happy to give you examples if you want them).

 

Don't get me wrong. I've had a lot of fun with the earlier Atari consoles, but I can't slap on the rose colored glasses and pretend that *everything* the company did was great. And on the flip side of the coin, I think peoples' view of the 3DO was unfairly negative. Yes, it was overpriced. Yes, it sold pretty poorly. Yes, it had controllers that were even worse than the Jaguar's. But the 3DO was incredibly powerful at the time it was released. I kept seeing games on the system that seemed like a true step above titles for the Genesis and Super NES, and Jaguar games just never seemed to reach that plateau of audiovisual quality.

 

JR

---

 

You have no clue what your talking about. If your going to judge the Jaguar by Cybermorph, that's your loss, because that was the first game ever for it, and certainely DID NOT show what the Jaguar is capable of. If you think it sucks, fine, that's your loss. But saying it sucks by judging it on Cybermorph or a couple other early games is illogical and just plain sad. Gee, why don't we judge the 2600 by the very first game that came out for it and not the great titles that showed it's potential later, like Pitfall 2. That is sooo stupid. Please don't get invovled in another discussion about the Jag's power when you have NO IDEA and don't even seem to want too know. Thanks