Heaven/TQA Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 just for fun... can someone make some nice tune in RMT out of this: cybernoid.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I'm up fer that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 one of my all time fave on all platforms... can wait to get that back... in cosine quality... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 It would be useful to know the "original" SID-song and how the instruments are created. For shure... played by POKEY it will sound completely different but it would make some things easier.. In addition, a "POKEY-Tracker" had to use instruments as the POKEYs abilities are given.... Example: When using 2 channels for 16 Bit (1+2) + channel 1 @1,79MHz You would have the following: Channel1 -> High Percussion/Hihats Channel2 -> Low percussion/baseline/drums Channel3 -> Melodic voice/baseline Channel4 -> Melodic voice/baseline So an import Filter with a "sorting feature" for Sound-Modules would help ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 emkay, check cybernoid.sid on the net... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 emkay, check cybernoid.sid on the net... I know the song but I want to check out, how a Instrument is done exactly with the SID. So I need a Tool like RMT for the SID to play around with the SID-Song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 GoatTracker is a Windows/Linux-based SID composer for C64 music - the sound engine is optimised for raster time rather than a lot of flexibility but it should give an idea of how the SID works. After that, Cosine's very own Electronic Music System is one of the more powerful and flexible drivers, version 9 is on the slate at the moment. GoatTracker is available at covertbitops.cjb.net You won't be able to actually play around with the Cybernoid SID file though, it was written in an assembler since the Maniacs Of Noise didn't use an editor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 You won't be able to actually play around with the Cybernoid SID file though, it was written in an assembler since the Maniacs Of Noise didn't use an editor. Perhaps it must be possible to "disassemble" the Music because there are allways the same commands and timings used.... Many people wrote many stuff without an editor You have to see the difference: SID-> predefined Synth-chip POKEY -> RAW Soundchip. So with SID babys could make music .-) For POKEY a "library" is necessary to get music out of it. The best on POKEY is: It is growing with every bit of CPU-Power you give to it. But "today" we are talking about POKEY in an 1,77MHz environment with RMT capabilities So here is a "Sound sample" of different wave combinations....Be patient, It's a wild beast (I am to lazy this time to sort the notes... and channel 1 is still off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 You won't be able to actually play around with the Cybernoid SID file though, it was written in an assembler since the Maniacs Of Noise didn't use an editor. Perhaps it must be possible to "disassemble" the Music because there are allways the same commands and timings used.... No it's not and no they're not, each driver is different and each sound engine in that driver has variations too. GoatTracker is substantially different from EMS or the Future Composer and the latter is built around the Maniacs of Noise driver. The MON themselves worked with an assembler, so if the vibrato needed retuning they'd modify the driver code directly rather than change editor settings. Many people wrote many stuff without an editor No they didn't, only the best musicians can visualise music in source form. You have to see the difference:SID-> predefined Synth-chip POKEY -> RAW Soundchip. So with SID babys could make music .-) You don't half talk some rubbish emkay. =-) The SID isn't a "predefined" synth at all unless we're talking incredibly basic sounds and at that level it's easier to get the POKEY to do something than the SID; each note needs a pitch, waveform and ADSR envelope for the bare minimum and the use of pulse width or filters adds more variables that need setting. Then the driver needs to add the extra details like filter sweep, vibrato and so forth to actually produce something musicial and each driver has it's own set of special features (like the EMS waveform table feature that fakes a drum sound at the start of a bass note) to add to the mix. It's not like an OPL3, you don't just feed it a note and use a predefined sound and the building of a drum sound requires a lot of rapid waveform changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 emkay... not bad... i like the main voice... but still some stuff to do... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 You won't be able to actually play around with the Cybernoid SID file though' date=' it was written in an assembler since the Maniacs Of Noise didn't use an editor.[/quote'] Perhaps it must be possible to "disassemble" the Music because there are allways the same commands and timings used.... No it's not and no they're not, each driver is different and each sound engine in that driver has variations too. [...] The SID isn't a "predefined" synth at all unless we're talking incredibly basic sounds and at that level it's easier to get the POKEY to do something than the SID; Don't talk nonsense please... With the SID you have multiple functions that are optimized for Musiccreation. What to do to let SID sound like a piano? -Initialize the chip? -set ADSR -set filter -set volume -set note ???? And the note is played like from a full synthesizer...everytime the same. On the POKEY you have to find "compromised" techniques and you have to gather them. One little mistake and it sounds all out of tune. Many people wrote many stuff without an editor No they didn't' date=' only the [i']best[/i] musicians can visualise music in source form. So referring to your "SID" is harder to code.... All classic Game-Musicians... including Rob Hubbard are losers, because the could not create good sounding music on the POKEY? Interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 No it's not and no they're not, each driver is different and each sound engine in that driver has variations too. [...] The SID isn't a "predefined" synth at all unless we're talking incredibly basic sounds and at that level it's easier to get the POKEY to do something than the SID; Don't talk nonsense please... With the SID you have multiple functions that are optimized for Musiccreation. What to do to let SID sound like a piano? -Initialize the chip? -set ADSR -set filter -set volume -set note ???? And the note is played like from a full synthesizer...everytime the same. As long as the setup is correct, the same is true of the POKEY too - it just doesn't have the range of the SID but that doesn't magically make the SID easier to work with. When you get to actually doing decent sounds rather than piddling around with simple stuff, every music driver on the face of the planet uses a different structure and adds extra features. You said "Perhaps it must be possible to "disassemble" the Music because there are allways the same commands and timings used" and that's rot because each driver handles the sound differently and none simply rely on the envelope generator. You claimed that babies could make music with SID and that's crap, both chips are hard to work with in different ways. If you reckon it's that easy, write a C64 music driver for yourself that's even a patch on the GoatTracker driver. So referring to your "SID" is harder to code.... All classic Game-Musicians... including Rob Hubbard are losers, because the could not create good sounding music on the POKEY?Interesting And that makes even less sense as an arguement. Hubbard, Whittaker and so forth worked within the restrictions of the chip and did some pretty good music, there are enough demos using them, people at the time must have disagreed with your verdict as i do now. Hubbard and Whittaker were based in the U.K., their primary markets were the SID and AY so obviously it made very little commercial sense to put more effort than they did into POKEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 As long as the setup is correct, the same is true of the POKEY too - it just doesn't have the range of the SID but that doesn't magically make the SID easier to work with. The SID was build with features that was better to understand by Musicians. Even the AY or YM etc. still had a User-Interface for Musicians. And that hits the spot! So every Mussician with some MIDI knowledge could program music on those chips. To program POKEY you needed more knowledge of the computer itself. When you get to actually doing decent sounds rather than piddling around with simple stuff, every music driver on the face of the planet uses a different structure and adds extra features. You said "Perhaps it must be possible to "disassemble" the Music because there are allways the same commands and timings used" and that's rot because each driver handles the sound differently and none simply rely on the envelope generator. Look... The SID is no miracle. You have the Soundchip with its - for musicians - implemented features and you have one CPU timing to handle. One difference is in the updatings per second, that cannot be build into a standard 50Hz Editor. You claimed that babies could make music with SID and that's crap, both chips are hard to work with in different ways. If you reckon it's that easy, write a C64 music driver for yourself that's even a patch on the GoatTracker driver. Ok let's say musician-babys with some interests in coding can handle a SID. And. No, I shurely will not do assembler oder machincode anymore. Because I hate coding. Hubbard, Whittaker and so forth worked within the restrictions of the chip and did some pretty good music, there are enough demos using them, people at the time must have disagreed with your verdict as i do now. Hubbard and Whittaker were based in the U.K., their primary markets were the SID and AY so obviously it made very little commercial sense to put more effort than they did into POKEY. When Hubbard did the "Monty on the run" tune, no one was shure upon a success of the C64. And he would have done the same quality on the POKEY if he had known, how the hardware was working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 YOU'RE ALL TALKING LOADS OF BULLSHIT when will this attitude towards each other stop?? It's rather complex to program a good ADSR envelope generator for Pokey. It's also complex to stop high notes on Pokey from sounding out of tune. SID is so easy to program these. I think these two features are the most important, as the envelope generators on SID will just start when the Gate-bit is set, and then you don't have to care anymore until you reset the Gate-bit to start the Release-period. Software ADSR is possible but has its limits. When the update frequency (normally 50 hz on PAL) is too low, there are no special envelopes allowed, that SID can do in an easy way. Tuning Pokey's high notes is also a matter of high-frequent updating of the registers. It's not that simple at all. ----- mux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 YOU'RE ALL TALKING LOADS OF BULLSHIT when will this attitude towards each other stop?? It's rather complex to program a good ADSR envelope generator for Pokey. It's also complex to stop high notes on Pokey from sounding out of tune. SID is so easy to program these. I think these two features are the most important, as the envelope generators on SID will just start when the Gate-bit is set, and then you don't have to care anymore until you reset the Gate-bit to start the Release-period. Software ADSR is possible but has its limits. When the update frequency (normally 50 hz on PAL) is too low, there are no special envelopes allowed, that SID can do in an easy way. Tuning Pokey's high notes is also a matter of high-frequent updating of the registers. It's not that simple at all. This is mostly the same I tried to explain...( so keep cool )... exept the creation of a "like music sounding" Baseline in Songs. Every generator which is build for deeper notes is not even usable for one octave only of music playing without going into song killing distortions, because they differ on every note that is played. So anyone who wants to do so may give the POKEY every cycle that is needed for enhancing its capabilities in a full programmable music-interface. It would need 50% CPU? Well... the way Games are done in 1978-1989 would be playable the same, but they would have better music. Take a look at the Draconus song. It was only played in the titlescreen, but the not used 16Bit drum feature with or without higher updatings did make a dance Song without any dancing parts...Or Hubbard... he did Songs on the POKEY without any base-tones.... Contrary... Softsynth. It uses mostly deeper notes because the sample frequency was not high enough to play high notes. Why the heck did never anyone combine pokey features with softsynth-routines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 LOL! In the other thread you two were arguing about which machine was better, now you are arguing about which machine was worse (for the musician)! Sit back, take a deep breath, and remember this is just a hobby... No offense, I am even learning something from listening to both of you talk about the machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 No offense, I am even learning something from listening to both of you talk about the machines. Take it all with a grain of salt. Just 'cause one can argue doesn't make one an expert. -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Emkay: just shut up and write some music will you? Let the finished product do the talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjk7382 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I didn't read this whole thread, but I read somewhere in the beginning that you were looking for the cybernoid.sid file. I didn't see it on here yet, so below is the file and a SID player. cybernoid.zip sid_player.zip cybernoid_2.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 OK. Here is the song with an "alternate baseline"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Well I have to apologise for slacking somewhat (the job centre are getting rather insistent I find a job, and there's other music underway too... ) but anyhow - here's a preview of what I've got done so far - I know it needs finishing (obviously) and the instruments need balancing out volume-wise. I did ditch the original .rmt file posted to the thread though, so if that counts as cheating then I'm just a big fat cheat cybernoid_preview.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 LOL! In the other thread you two were arguing about which machine was better, now you are arguing about which machine was worse (for the musician)! Sit back, take a deep breath, and remember this is just a hobby... No offense, I am even learning something from listening to both of you talk about the machines. Yeah.... almost reminds me of the jaguar forums where topics would be thrown completely off because certain parties started arguing over the same 'ol things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 @ sack, emkay good work! what is interesting is that you use completly different approach. emkay, i have to double check your "sid" on real atari... c ya, happy heaven.... ps. sack, what it be better to use 8 channels instead of 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 @ sack, emkay good work! what is interesting is that you use completly different approach. emkay, i have to double check your "sid" on real atari... c ya, happy heaven.... ps. sack, what it be better to use 8 channels instead of 4? Well Sack's version is a bit more melodic on the main voice.... But who will stop anyone to put the "alternate baseline" together with "standard" Pokey melodies ? In fact the baseline is possible with 50Hz updatings too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 15, 2003 Author Share Posted November 15, 2003 as often i hear the song (again)... jeroen's done a real master piece... few years ago i had even sids & atari music on my car hifi... cybernoid2 rocks as well... and next to them... chambers of shaolin... i listened to the tracks til death on my atari ST... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.