need help

[emkay]

as often i hear the song (again)... jeroen's done a real master piece... few years ago i had even sids & atari music on my car hifi...

 

cybernoid2 rocks as well... and next to them... chambers of shaolin... i listened to the tracks til death on my atari ST...

 

hve

 

 

I am very impressed on the "Stormlord" song and "trapped in china" would be a very interesting project to convert too.

But, I think my "last" release of Cybernoid will still be the best (in different sounding) you can get out of RMT...

[emkay]

no comment

[emkay]

Hm...

 

I am still wondering where the other thousands of entries are....

[analmux]

no comment

 

The last version rocks!!! Great work. Especially the middle and end of the tune. The start of the tune may need some little improvements though, but it's almost perfect.

 

-----

mux

[sack-c0s]

heh - my rendition will be finished as soon as reality allows (Currently got a job search on my hands, PC projects related to that ongoing and a handful of bits of music for Atari/C64)

 

I do like the drums in that version though - Have you Listened to Arkanoid on the C64 by any chance emkay?

 

I wonder what you could make of the drums in that...

 

Edit: whilst I'm here - have another C64 cover (TMR will no doubt tell you where the original came from because from the top of my head I really can't remember )

arkanoid.zip

introtune.zip

[emkay]

no comment

 

The last version rocks!!! Great work. Especially the middle and end of the tune. The start of the tune may need some little improvements though, but it's almost perfect.

 

-----

mux

 

Thanks.

 

The start (lead in) i have chosen because it sounds so YM ...

[emkay]

heh - my rendition will be finished as soon as reality allows (Currently got a job search on my hands, PC projects related to that ongoing and a handful of bits of music for Atari/C64)

 

I did not try to blame on you Sack... It's more the problem, only two people are still doing some work, when one is crying "need help"

On the other hand I would have liked to listen to a "Greyscale" Version and others...but...!

 

 

I do like the drums in that version though - Have you Listened to Arkanoid on the C64 by any chance emkay?

 

I wonder what you could make of the drums in that...

 

 

Hm... I still have problems getting any drums out of the tune by listening to SIDPLAY. I still get a Baseline and some percussions.

 

 

 

Edit: whilst I'm here - have another C64 cover (TMR will no doubt tell you where the original came from because from the top of my head I really can't remember )

 

 

I think I know this song from a Vibrants Demo (AdLib).... but If there is a C64 original I don't know it either

[TMR]

Easy. =-)

 

Check the HSVC, Markus Schneider's directory (he's on the root) and it's called "Strike Force Introtune" although i seem to remember that it was also used for one of the Strike Force and The Movers co-op intros (that would have been around 1988, if memory serves). Oh, there's a cover in JCH's directory too, which probably explains the Vibrants' interest - i wonder if EdLib is cross compatible with JCH Newplayer note data...? =-)

 

There's a couple of kick-arse tunes in Schneider's directory, my personal favourite has to be "Rhenus Demo" from It - The Demo by Rhenus.

[emkay]

Easy. =-)

 

Check the HSVC, Markus Schneider's directory (he's on the root) and it's called "Strike Force Introtune" although i seem to remember that it was also used for one of the Strike Force and The Movers co-op intros (that would have been around 1988, if memory serves).  Oh, there's a cover in JCH's directory too, which probably explains the Vibrants' interest ...

 

 

One problem of the SID is that without filters it is a heavy noisy thing.... with filter it loses colour. Perhaps it is the lack of the non-linear filter?

So the AdLib version (including filters etc.) builds a "positiv" color into the tune.

[sack-c0s]

I don't think it's so much a problem with the filter (although nobody in their right mind will deny that filter can be a bitch) as some musicians are a bit heavy on the filter, although it is strange to hear a pokey fan referring to it as 'noisy'

 

JCH (among others) is sometimes a bit OTT on the filter it has to be said. but that's maybe because all I have is new-SID machines and got used to the sound.

 

Listen to 'chordian' from JCHs directory with it set to 6580 and 8580 - I reckon that sounds a lot better on the '80

[emkay]

I don't think it's so much a problem with the filter (although nobody in their right mind will deny that filter can be a bitch) as some musicians are a bit heavy on the filter, although it is strange to hear a pokey fan referring to it as 'noisy'

 

 

Referring to the real white noise.... the original "Strike Force"Song is unlistenable.

But with the SID you can always reduce noice by using "more filter".

On the POKEY you can use some tricks like playing different notes in a predefined timing to reduce noise and get better results in Sounding (like it is done with the Drums/Baseline).

Even a Hardcore SID-Freak must admit that the cyber4dot song is less noisy than average SID-Tunes.

And... to make some things clear... I am not a POKEY fan as you would define it... I am an A8-Fan. So I am always interested in what is possible with this machines

 

In Addition, one may find a Music-Style that really fits to the sound-characteristics of the POKEY as "Mitch and Dane" found the best way, to get real sound-characteristics right out of the SID. "Gloria" is very cool

[sack-c0s]

Granted the SID has it's problems - but the thing that gets me about the Pokey is the lack of control over the duty cycle control on the waveforms - so sometimes it's a pain to try and avoid interference with notes across channels. sometimes a note on one channel can collide with another and wipe each others out.

 

at least on the 64 you can use the different waveforms or if you want to just stick with the squarewave(pulse) you can set the pulsewidths to avoid these problems.

 

I would never accuse the SID of being noisy. if anything I think *muffled* is the problem at times - but that's down to the user rather than the chip.

 

No arguments about Mitch+Dane though.

 

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~loorni/covert/...ols/goattrk.zip - I'd be interested to see what you can manage with a SID tracker. here's GoatTracker (Admittedly in some places not as good an editor as RMT, but a damn good player)

 

Edit: Attached is a tune I converted from a mod by 4-Mat

a642.zip

[Bryan]

Gotta love that bass sound!

 

-Bry

[Heaven/TQA]

@ sack

 

very nice... i like it... i do not know the original but imho it sounds like it was done for pokey... imho (maybe emkay will disagree but...) the it still sounds like an atari tune...

 

hve

[emkay]

Granted the SID has it's problems - but the thing that gets me about the Pokey is the lack of control over the duty cycle control on the waveforms - so sometimes it's a pain to try and avoid interference with notes across channels. sometimes a note on one channel can collide with another and wipe each others out.

 

 

 

POKEY has its problems. But this is more a fault of the worse emulation RMT is still using.

And you still can try to avoid interferences by adjusting the Volume.

So it is even on RMT better not to chose the Table for arpeggios but to edit the Instrument with tree notes and different volume-settings.

Almost every "bugs" that can happen with pokey, can be compensated by software. And only the creation is more cpu and memory expensiv. ...playing of notes will take the same time ...

 

There are many spots on RMT to blame on, but RMT is still the best for POKEY. So even if RMT is not fully supporting POKEYs abilities, another Tracker would songs like "Cyber4dot" not make available.

[emkay]

@ sack  

 

very nice... i like it... i do not know the original but imho it sounds like it was done for pokey... imho (maybe emkay will disagree but...) the it still sounds like an atari tune...  

 

hve

 

 

There is no point to disagree... but a point to get angry and somehow sad.

 

Why must ATARI always stand for disharmonic and out of tune Songs?

The most unbelievable thing is that most ATARI-people prefer this more than a track that is more sounding like real music?

[emkay]

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~loorni/covert/...ols/goattrk.zip - I'd be interested to see what you can manage with a SID tracker. here's GoatTracker (Admittedly in some places not as good an editor as RMT, but a damn good player)

 

 

 

When playing, I get no sound. Do I need an additional sound-driver(re-SID) ? The tracker opens a second Command Window. Perhaps the Device looks blocked for the tracker by this. Any hint to configure the Tracker by hand?

[MaPa]

@ sack  

 

very nice... i like it... i do not know the original but imho it sounds like it was done for pokey... imho (maybe emkay will disagree but...) the it still sounds like an atari tune...  

 

hve

 

 

There is no point to disagree... but a point to get angry and somehow sad.

 

Why must ATARI always stand for disharmonic and out of tune Songs?

The most unbelievable thing is that most ATARI-people prefer this more than a track that is more sounding like real music?

 

I'm not musician, I don't know what you mean with disharmonic and out of tune songs, but I like songs with nice melody and some nice "instruments". In your music are interesting only basses for me, other is bad. Almost no melody, ugly "instruments"... so standart ATARI music is much better at the end.

[Andre]

I'm not musician, I don't know what you mean with disharmonic and out of tune songs, but I like songs with nice melody and some nice "instruments". In your music are interesting only basses for me, other is bad. Almost no melody, ugly "instruments"... so standart ATARI music is much better at the end.

 

[emkay]

@ sack  

 

very nice... i like it... i do not know the original but imho it sounds like it was done for pokey... imho (maybe emkay will disagree but...) the it still sounds like an atari tune...  

 

hve

 

 

There is no point to disagree... but a point to get angry and somehow sad.

 

Why must ATARI always stand for disharmonic and out of tune Songs?

The most unbelievable thing is that most ATARI-people prefer this more than a track that is more sounding like real music?

 

I'm not musician, I don't know what you mean with disharmonic and out of tune songs,

 

So there is no point to argue. But I will try to explain.

 

The 8-bit resolution of the POKEY is "not good" enough to produce proper notes. They are mostly a pitch to high or to low.

By the fact, the output of POKEY is in no way optimized: Every note sounds like "high pitched" though.

SID produces a lower pitch with faster updatings by hardware. On POKEY you can rebuild this by flexible updatings, which is not supported by one Tracker on the POKEY(!!!). While RMT is using quadruple speed, which is triple speed imho, you can edit intruments with single and double speed for variations.

 

The for Baseline mostly used "C" or "E" generators are to unstable to play even one octave that would fit to the main melody. But this is recommended if you don't have 128 channels at hand. So the drums can build an attendance to the main melody.

Some musicans on POKEY still used one note for Bass or only two or three notes that are sounding "like a baseline", but the notes are played as it is possible with the "C" or "E" Generator, but not as it was necessary to build an attendance for the main Voice.

 

 

but I like songs with nice melody and some nice "instruments". In your music are interesting only basses for me, other is bad. Almost no melody, ugly "instruments"... so standart ATARI music is much better at the end.

 

Good you wrote "instruments" into "" . Building a song with 3 channels of simple squarewave sounding and some different vibrato and same frequency-pitch is for shure no instrument-variation (belonging to "different instruments")... And then people use up to 8 Channels with this.

 

Please take note:

Not every song can be build with your standard ATARI sound.

 

By creating a sound-runtime that is able to build flexible updatings you will get a Softsynth similar sounding with "Display on" and multiple DLIs....

Together with "MCS" or "G2F" you can build colorful graphics and games that I would call "the next generation A8 Software".....

[sack-c0s]

Fair comment - but my tunes are done for a demo group as background music so consequently I can't go chewing up every last cycle for music playback or there's no time for video updates and other processing.

 

I also think the 'standard Atari music style' has grown out of these limitations as a way of producing something reasonable sounding (and actually very good in cases).

 

I don't understand what you mean by the SID being lower-pitched. surely it's outputting at the same pitch (albeit with a higher resolution, so it can be controlled and output closer to standard note pitches) otherwise it would be generating different notes and be detuned?

[emkay]

Fair comment - but my tunes are done for a demo group as background music so consequently I can't go chewing up every last cycle for music playback or there's no time for video updates and other processing.

 

You still have 1,79MHz and always the chance to equalize graphics and sound for "your" Demo, Game etc. a max. of about 50% of CPU load for music would always be a fair amount.

 

I also think the 'standard Atari music style' has grown out of these limitations as a way of producing something reasonable sounding (and actually very good in cases).  

 

 

Many tunes are still using the POKEY's filter. They only do sound good by using sampled drums.

RMT does not use any digitized sounds so everything has to be done by synthesizing.

Another Drama is the fact, that Filter and 16Bit is not possible to be used the same time. And 16Bit incl. filter still cost 3 channels. So digitizing is recommended which is not only CPU expensive, it's timing expensive too.

 

...

 

 

I don't understand what you mean by the SID being lower-pitched. surely it's outputting at the same pitch (albeit with a higher resolution, so it can be controlled and output closer to standard note pitches) otherwise it would be generating different notes and be detuned?

 

referring to a lot of tunes SID is detuned too. But by the 16Bit resolution it's much less than with POKEY.

How many Octaves are possible with one linear voice? 9 by 65536 or 256 steps?

 

The lower pitch is a result of the so called low frequency oscillation, which makes the resulting tone more listenable than the original squarewave.

 

BTW: Some messages above I tried to get some answers by putting some questions in it . Thanks for answering .-)

[TMR]

Fair comment - but my tunes are done for a demo group as background music so consequently I can't go chewing up every last cycle for music playback or there's no time for video updates and other processing.

 

You still have 1,79MHz and always the chance to equalize graphics and sound for "your" Demo, Game etc. a max. of about 50% of CPU load for music would always be a fair amount.

 

Lets put it this way... if he uses 50% of the frame time i'll have his bollocks. =-)

[emkay]

Fair comment - but my tunes are done for a demo group as background music so consequently I can't go chewing up every last cycle for music playback or there's no time for video updates and other processing.

 

You still have 1,79MHz and always the chance to equalize graphics and sound for "your" Demo, Game etc. a max. of about 50% of CPU load for music would always be a fair amount.

 

Lets put it this way... if he uses 50% of the frame time i'll have his bollocks. =-)

 

 

Hey.... I wrote "at max." ! And even when the 50% will be fully used, you would have more than "800 kHz" to switch some HW-registers

[sack-c0s]

The other problem is not *how much* time is taken - but rather where in a frameloop it comes from. given the colour limitations of the graphics hardware quite a bit of CPU time is taken to compensate which usually requires precision timing, making interruptions a definate no-no.

 

sample playback is often just a case of loading a sample, placing it in the sound register, updating a pointer and exiting the interrupt but that knackers up your timings.

 

unless of course you weave your sample code into your display kernel which would be a coding nightmare and involve overhauling the RMT playroutine.

 

 

...which has actually just reminded me of a feature - would it be possible to add some way of adding sync points into RMT tunes? a command with a parameter which gets dumped into a memory location during playback with the playroutine would work - that way you would have a sync-to-music mechanism.