ICD P:R Interface as SIO2PC?

[A2600]

Matthew B. (Gunstar) is going to contact the people over at Ape to see if this is possible but Im gonna ask it to you guys over here to see what kind of answers do I get.

 

The Plan:

 

Use a ICD P:R Interface, as an SIO2PC??

 

Those who own a a P:R Interface may know what we are talking about...

 

But for those who dont, the ICD P:R Interface is like an updated version of the Atari 850 Interface, with one SIO and 3 Com Ports, The deal is to use the P:R as a SIO2PC through the Com port like on a regular SIO2PC Cable

 

Thank You and Take Care

[andy_bernstein]

So the process will be the same than with SIO2PC but, this time, we'll be using a serial (to serial) port like the ones on the Atari 850 ?

 

Is that correct ?

 

AB.

[Albert]

The P:R: Connection, 850, and MIO board all give you one or more standard serial and printer ports. The Atari 8-bit then talks to whatever you have connected to the serial port through the R: device. I don't see how you would be able to simulate disk drives, printers, and other devices using a P:R: Connection as you can with an SIO2PC. The SIO2PC works by simulating the various devices and connects directly to the SIO port. Am I missing something here?

 

..Al

[Gunstar]

yes, Albert, you are missing something here: The APE or SIO2PC SOFTWARE simulates/emulates the atari periphrials including drives, printers (P: ) and the 850 (R: ). The SIO2PC cable is just a way of interfacing the 8-bit SIO with a PC com port. This can be accomplished just as easily, if not more so, with an 850 or PR: connection. It's just a matter of "patching" or rewriting the APE software to work through these devices instead of an SIO2PC cable. The only reason i can think of why this was not the way it was done originally is because of the rarity and cost of 850/PR interfaces; SIO2PC cable is cheaper. But if the software can be made to work with the 850, then owners of 850's and PR:C's won't need to bother with SIO2PC cables.

[Bryan]

Okay, now I'm missing something. The P:R:C isn't just a pass-thru to SIO, it's an active interface. Sending APE signals to it won't make the A8 think it's got new peripherals, it'll just think there's something going on at the R: port.

 

Unless you're trying to use an 800 to simulate disk drives for another 800 or something.

 

-Bry

[Albert]

Okay' date=' now I'm missing something. The P:R:C isn't just a pass-thru to SIO, it's an active interface. Sending APE signals to it won't make the A8 think it's got new peripherals, it'll just think there's something going on at the R: port./quote']

 

Yes, this is my understanding of what is going on as well, which is why I am confused as to how using a P:R: Connection (or similar interface) could be turned into an SIO2PC connection. Nice if it could be done, but I would just imagine the Atari 8-bit would continue to see a serial peripheral at the R: port and nothing else.

 

..Al

[Gunstar]

Well, I don't use the SIO2PC dos program, I use A.P.E for Windows. A.P.E has a subprogram called 'remote control' which allows you to operate A.P.E from the 8-bit. All it would require is a patch to the 'remote control' program to read/write the R: handler coming from the 8-bit and possibly a bootdisk for the 8-bit to access the R: handler and make a connection with the PC. Basically a null modem setup, but it would allow you to use the R: handler on the 8-bit as a "drive" accessing A.P.E and virtual drives. you would then have the same menu to choose .com and .exe, etc. files PC-mirror mounts just like is done now with the SIO2PC cable using the D: handler. You would not have the features of booting from A.P.E when you turn on the Atari like you do when A.P.E is set to D1:.

[Albert]

Well, I don't use the SIO2PC dos program, I use A.P.E for Windows. A.P.E has a subprogram called 'remote control' which allows you to operate A.P.E from the 8-bit. All it would require is a patch to the 'remote control' program to read/write the R: handler coming from the 8-bit and possibly a bootdisk for the 8-bit to access the R: handler and make a connection with the PC. Basically a null modem setup, but it would allow you to use the R: handler on the 8-bit as a "drive" accessing A.P.E and virtual drives. you would then have the same menu to choose .com and .exe, etc. files PC-mirror mounts just like is done now with the SIO2PC cable using the D: handler. You would not have the features of booting from A.P.E  when you turn on the Atari like you do when A.P.E is set to D1:.

 

Okay, with software on the 8-bit side of things, I can see easily using a P:R: connection, 850 or MIO to use the serial connection as a "drive" through the R: handler. But because this requires software on the 8-bit to specifically communicate through the R: handler, it is not transparent. One of the things I really like about the SIO2PC interface is that drives and printers are exposed to the Atari 8-bit through the proper device drivers. When you talk to D1:, the 8-bit really thinks you're dealing with a physical floppy drive, and this will work with any software. This makes the whole thing more useful, in my opinion.

 

Given how inexpensive SIO2PC cables are (either to build yourself, or to buy), as well as the various SIO2PC-related programs out there, I don't see there being much demand for a P:R:Connection-style serial interface that is more awkward to use.

 

..Al

[Gunstar]

Well, I don't use the SIO2PC dos program, I use A.P.E for Windows. A.P.E has a subprogram called 'remote control' which allows you to operate A.P.E from the 8-bit. All it would require is a patch to the 'remote control' program to read/write the R: handler coming from the 8-bit and possibly a bootdisk for the 8-bit to access the R: handler and make a connection with the PC. Basically a null modem setup, but it would allow you to use the R: handler on the 8-bit as a "drive" accessing A.P.E and virtual drives. you would then have the same menu to choose .com and .exe, etc. files PC-mirror mounts just like is done now with the SIO2PC cable using the D: handler. You would not have the features of booting from A.P.E  when you turn on the Atari like you do when A.P.E is set to D1:.

 

Okay, with software on the 8-bit side of things, I can see easily using a P:R: connection, 850 or MIO to use the serial connection as a "drive" through the R: handler. But because this requires software on the 8-bit to specifically communicate through the R: handler, it is not transparent. One of the things I really like about the SIO2PC interface is that drives and printers are exposed to the Atari 8-bit through the proper device drivers. When you talk to D1:, the 8-bit really thinks you're dealing with a physical floppy drive, and this will work with any software. This makes the whole thing more useful, in my opinion.

 

Given how inexpensive SIO2PC cables are (either to build yourself, or to buy), as well as the various SIO2PC-related programs out there, I don't see there being much demand for a P:R:Connection-style serial interface that is more awkward to use.

 

..Al

 

I'm merely talking about support of the 850/ PR:Connection in the A.P.E software package as an alternative, for people who have these devices and want to put them to good use, i'm not talking about the creation of a new interface that does what they already do, or changing the SIO2PC interface in any way. I myself don't use A.P.E "transparently" (which is not really true, since the PC may have to be booted and A.P.E program run, a image mounted, etc.-doesn't sound too transparent to me-I prefer booting my games off of real floppies myself, can't get more "transparent" then that IMHO) like you do; I have 2-3 real disk drives hooked up to my Atari at any given time and I use A.P.E for drives beyond my physical drives and using 'remote control' from my XE to handle things, basically using the A.P.E system as a harddisk for the 8-bit. You still need a boot disk when connecting a hardrive through the MIO box to access it don't you? That's how I use A.P.E and the SIO2PC and I could just as readily do it through my PR: Connection. But there is a reason why i thought of this whole concept to begin with, and it is because my SIO2PC is not currently working and it was an alternative thought to repairing or replacing the SIO2PC and something I for one would like to have, anyway, in addition to an SIO2PC cable and others who have 850's and PR:C's but don't yet have an SIO2PC may be interested in an option like this too. So, I thought I'd bring up the idea to Steven Tucker for adding support in a future version of A.P.E.

[Albert]

I myself don't use A.P.E "transparently" (which is not really true, since the PC may have to be booted and A.P.E program run, a image mounted, etc.-doesn't sound too transparent to me-I prefer booting my games off of real floppies myself, can't get more "transparent" then that IMHO) like you do; I have 2-3 real disk drives hooked up to my Atari at any given time and I use A.P.E for drives beyond my physical drives and using 'remote control' from my XE to handle things, basically using the A.P.E system as a harddisk for the 8-bit.

 

When I say "transparent", I mean from the perspective of the Atari 8-bit. The PC software simulates an 8-bit drive (or other peripheral), and the 8-bit has no idea that it's not talking to a real drive.

 

You still need a boot disk when connecting a hardrive through the MIO box to access it don't you? That's how I use A.P.E and the SIO2PC and I could just as readily do it through my PR: Connection.

 

Yes, although you don't need to with a SpartaDOS X cartridge (which is what I primarily used when I had an MIO and two 20MB hard drives).

 

But there is a reason why i thought of this whole concept to begin with, and it is because my SIO2PC is not currently working and it was an alternative thought to repairing or replacing the SIO2PC and something I for one would like to have, anyway, in addition to an SIO2PC cable and others who have 850's and PR:C's but don't yet have an SIO2PC may be interested in an option like this too. So, I thought I'd bring up the idea to Steven Tucker for adding support in a future version of A.P.E.

 

I'm not objecting to this idea at all or trying to discourage anyone from pursuing it as it's a useful alternative if you don't have an SIO2PC cable (or don't want to make/buy one) and you have a P:R: Connection.

 

..Al

[Bryan]

Another problem is that you would need your custom R: handler running all the time, so the programs you load would have to cooperate with memory resident stuff like that. Compatibility would take a big hit.

 

I guess you could write a complete DOS that uses the R: device linked to a PC and that would work for some things, but what you're basically describing is writing an elaborate RS-232 terminal package for the 8-bit, and you still need to boot this software locally before you could even communicate with a specially designed PC counterpart.

 

I don't see this as a practical thing to add to APE. With the interfacing method you're talking about, it would not be a "Peripheral Emulator."

 

-Bry

 

BTW... You don't need a boot disk to use a hard drive with an MIO. The hard drive itself can be bootable (if you install DOS on a partition and make it D1:), and it's quite fast.

[Gunstar]

Another problem is that you would need your custom R: handler running all the time, so the programs you load would have to cooperate with memory resident stuff like that. Compatibility would take a big hit.

 

I guess you could write a complete DOS that uses the R: device linked to a PC and that would work for some things, but what you're basically describing is writing an elaborate RS-232 terminal package for the 8-bit, and you still need to boot this software locally before you could even communicate with a specially designed PC counterpart.

 

I don't see this as a practical thing to add to APE. With the interfacing method you're talking about, it would not be a "Peripheral Emulator."

 

    -Bry

 

BTW... You don't need a boot disk to use a hard drive with an MIO. The hard drive itself can be bootable (if you install DOS on a partition and make it D1:), and it's quite fast.

 

I don't think it would take such an elaborate terminal package to load FILES, not disk images, through the R: handler, I really do think support for this could be done in small modules added to APE's remote control program and a small null modem protocal program initiated from a batch file on the bootdisk, accessing the remote control program's menu directory (which uses whatever dos you want, I use Spartados)through the R1: instead of D1:. APE in turn would have a similiar null modem protocal added to it through the com port. I don't see that compatibility would be a problem for most program FILES that load fully into memory, which is most programs, with room to spare(for the null modem program), since most programs are 48k. I never expected it to work with disk images, most 8-bit programs can be found on the internet in file form(.com, .exe, .bin, .xex, etc.) from hackers over the years. But hey, if you don't think so and think it's pointless, fine, your not the author of the programs surrounding A.P.E and that's who I'm going to talk to about it, since he seems to be an expert in such things. If he tells me it can't be done, fine. As a matter of fact, I didn't even start this thread, A2600 did, and then he asked me to come and explain what he was talking about (something I had mentioned to him that he's jumped the gun on and gotten excited about). I never planned to mention anything about it at all here until I had corresponded with him on the idea. I never wanted your opinion or anyone elses except Steven Tucker's. I believe it could work and work well, and will stick to my idea until I find out from the man I know, knows: the author.

[Albert]

BTW... You don't need a boot disk to use a hard drive with an MIO. The hard drive itself can be bootable (if you install DOS on a partition and make it D1:), and it's quite fast.

 

Ahhh, it's been a long time since I've had the pleasure of using an MIO, and most of the time I was using it with a SpartaDOS X cart. I certainly do remember it being very fast, though. I'm still trying to get my hands on a 1MB version, but those seem pretty difficult to come by.

 

..Al

[Bryan]

If all you want is basic file serving across a serial link, then yes, that's doable. Sorry if I offended.

 

-Bry

[Shannon]

I'm still trying to figure out why if he will only accept an answer from the author of the A.P.E. software he even posted the msg here.

 

Doesn't the guy have an email?

 

Post a msg in a public forum and that is what happens.