G2F, Character sets, Re:My Casltevania attempt

[zenassem]

Ok I've been pretty busy.

 

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions on the Title-screen thread. It actually benefitted me more than I could have expected. Out of that thread Emkay suggested using G2F. So over the past few days I have plunged into learning G2F, with much gratitude to EMKAY!!! He really went above and beyond to help me muddle my way through the program. I am now convinced that this is the Tool I will use for graphics in the future.

 

===============================================

Here's where I can use your help: (If Analmux sees this... He has figured this out, and is using the methods in his Super Mario clone. But I'm not sure he has time to expalin it now)

===============================================

 some background info...



NES info: Castlevania for the nintendo uses: 

-Four 256 element Charactersets per level. 

-Each character is 8x8 pixels. 

-The Character Set is a 16x16 charcter grid. (16*16=256) much like Atari

-The 4 character sets are Identical except each uses a different color pallette of 4 colors. 

-Each World Tile is built up using 16 characters in a 4x4 grid. 



(Keep in mind that many of the characters are only utilized in 1 of the color pallettes, Because I will need to cut down, Here' why) 

Atari:

My Idea so far:

Much like Analmux's Super Marion Bros 3 clone I have chosen Antic mode 4. Reason, Basically it will allow me to utilize Character Set graphics with 4 colors per character, At an acceptable resolution.



Now to get the four colors each Character on the Atari is only using 4 of the 8 pixels per row that actually display. So,

- Each character in My characterset is 4*8. Hence I will need 2 characters to = 1 Nintendo character. (I'm not too worried because The Nintendo doesn't really utilize all 4 of it's tilesets per level. Many characters only use one pallete.)



I think i will be able to getaway with having 2 different color pallettes for the tile set. Using DLI's to change the colors. If I want to retain all the graphics I will still need 4 Modified Character sets as each of my characters is half the size compared to Nintendo.

 

===============================================

Now here is where I am sorta stuck.

===============================================

 

What tool do I use to create the character sets??? And How can I get them into my Assembly code?

 

Let me elaborate:

It would be great if I could use g2f to draw my characters. Reason bieng, is i already have all the Tilesets dumped from the Nintendo game. G2F allows me to open .bmp files. So I wouldn't with some small modifiaction I could have all my graphics for levels quite easily. But.... I don't know how I to take the charactersets that G2F uses and use them as my modified charatersets. There is a save to .asm that I guess works with X-asm. But I haven't had time to look at another Assembler. i just spent a lot of time getting used to mac/65.

 

If I can't figure out how to use g2f to create my character sets, then I am left with Envision, EnvisionPC, Instedit, SuperFont. I think Envision will load .fnt files that are save from g2f. But I haven't gotten it to worek right just yet. It would really suck to have to draw all the characters form the character set by hand if I don' have to.

 

So can anyone tell me the bestway for me to create my character set? Perhaps I am missing something because my brain is fried from inforamtion overload the last few days.

 

~zen

[zenassem]

If it helps... Here is a picture Of editng the tileset of the Nintendo Rom.

The four windows on the outside show the 4 character sets. Each with 256 8x8 characters. The window in the left corner shows the level and a few of the World Tiles which are 16 (4x4 gird) of the 8x8 characters. For a Total of 32x32 World Tile.

 

 

~zen

[zenassem]

Oh how I wish i could Edit....

 

Last bit,

 

I'll have to see how levels will look on the Atari. If you have read Analmux's post on SMC, he points out that the NES has 32 characters horizontally hon the screen. You can see that in the fact that the level editor picutre above as ( 32 pixel tiles across and (6) 32 pixel tiles Vertical. =256x192.

 

I am uysing antic mode 4. And in Narrow screen I believe I will have (4) 32 pixel tiles across and (6) 32 pixel vertical. = 128x192

 

I'm not sure what effect that will have on the gameplay of the levels So I will have to take a look.

 

~zen

[zenassem]

Hmmm Nothing like spamming my own thread....

 

While I wait for answer. I am looking into Quick Ed. I purchased this CD a while ago form Dean Garraghty. It has a lot of of tools on it. Here's the list.

 

CONTENTS

=========

 

This CD-ROM contains the following:

 

* Quick V2.2 and V2.1

* Quick Support Disks 1 and 2

* Screen Aided Management (SAM) V1.25i

* SAM Budget (spreadsheet)

* SAM Designer (DTP/Design Package)

* SAM Utility Extensions

* 4 PPP Games: Rubberball, Bombi, Glaggs It!, Minesweeper

* Quick Ed (character set editor for mouse, joystick, and touch tablet)

* Digi-Studio

* Issues 1-14 of the DGS News-Disk Magazine

* Issues 15-19 of the DGS News-Paper Magazine (scans of the originals)

* Issues 20-26(last issue) of the DGS News-Paper On Disk Magazine

* News-Paper Yearly Disk (to go with the News-Paper Magazine)

* Print-Filer

* AMS 96 video in MPEG-1 format

* PD: Bash-A-Drum

* PD: Dean's Desktop System

* PD: Don't Ask Software Demo Disk

* PD: Education Disk 1

* PD: Football Fantasies

* PD: Journey Into Sound Demo Disk

* PD: Parrot Demo Disk

* PD: Programmer's Speech Tool

* PD: Quick Demo Disk

* PD: This & That Disks 1&2

* PD: Tiger Developments Demo Disk

* PD: Voicemaster Demo Disk

 

All products are supplied with full manuals in PDF format, except

Print-Filer (on-disk manual), the News-Disk/Paper magazines, and

the PD disks (some have on-disk manuals). PDF files require the

Adobe Acrobat Reader, a free product available at: www.adobe.com.

 

I also found something on the web About a program Creativ -Creator that specializes in antic mode 4 and mode 5 character graphics. But I am unable to locate the actual .atr

 

~zen

[Heaven/TQA]

i use g2f for boinxx (ex-trackball)... but for world mapping i use c64 PC tool i mentioned in the homebrew forum...

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58459

 

i am sure that there are many PC tools suitable for NES out there as well and maybe they can help here as well...

[zenassem]

Heaven/TQA,

 

You saved the day! I think that's EXACTLY what I'm looking for. Especially the fact that it details the file format used. And that it allows you to create the maps from the tiles in the same program. I was figuring that whatever I found, I would have to code my own tool to build the level data and design my own MAP format. This may just save me a lot of frustration.

 

If it works out I owe you big time!!! Perhaps I can return the favor.

 

OK so I'm going to spend some time now digging into Char Map.

 

~Zen

[zenassem]

Ok,

 

I worked with "Char Map" today. I've decide to draw all Characters, Tiles, Maps by hand. Following is my first attempt at creating lvl 1. I was hoping that I could get away with using 2 characters to 1 Nintnendo, but I'm not happy with the results. Everything is squisehd down and stretched wide.

So I have 2 options.

 

1) Double the pixel height to match the double wide character

2) Sacarafice detail and try to create tiles that are 1 to 1 with Nintendo.

 

I'll try both methods and then post here to get input from you guys on which looks better.

 

Well here was the first attempt .....

 

 

 

~zen

[Heaven/TQA]

the only issue with charpad is that it just works in "c64" mode which means that at the moment you can not use the 5th colour in antic4 mode (char+128)... but maybe you can write a converter like i have done...

 

so at the moment you are loosing the 5th colour...

[emkay]

2) Sacarafice detail and try to create tiles that are 1 to 1 with Nintendo.

 

This one

 

I wonder why using some more external tools?

 

G2F can be used even for creating charsets.

When filling the whole screen with color 3(710) , you can build a "Chessboard" with the char-inversion.

The screen setting has to be on "standard".

In OPTIONS / show chars, you take a look (timewise) where the right chars are, and where the charsets are beginning.

Then you easily can draw 4x8 pixel tiles...

The char inversion may be a helper to see the char-edges directly. When editing, the chars position must be un-inverted (or the inversion is wanted)

 

 

 

The picture below shows a charset of an Intro (example). Editing was done in less than an hour. After such charset (tileset) is created, changings are done in less time, because you can do all changes on one screen.

[Heaven/TQA]

of course you can create fonts in g2f but what about tiles & maps? not possible as the "map function" seems not the one you would need for games...

 

and editing tiles manually is a pain so that's why charpad came into mind... and is very easy to use for atari games...

[ZylonBane]

1) Double the pixel height to match the double wide character

2) Sacarafice detail and try to create tiles that are 1 to 1 with Nintendo.

3. Neither.

 

The pixel aspect ratio between the NES and the Atari is sufficiently different that you'll end up with something that looks either stretched or squashed. I think a good compromise would be to go with pixel-perfect bitmap conversion, but then throw out every eighth(?) column of source level data. That should keep the overall level proportions correct.

[zenassem]

I'm not sure that I am understanding...

 

I think a couple of good pictures will help make sure we are all on the same page (mainly me, because I'm not sure my explanation is good).

 

So here are some better, Zoomed-in Pictures Of:

 

The Nintendo chars & tiles VS. My Chars & tiles:

 

Example of Nintendo Character 8x8 4 colors

 

 

My handrawn Characters Using Charpad 4x8 4 colors

(The reason I am using two 4X8 is because I can't control each pixel in the 8x8 grid. In order to get 4 colors My pixels are twice the width. So horizontally I only have 4 individual pixels)

 

 

Now Here Is a Nintendo Tiles of Sixteen characters in a 4x4 grid

 

 

 

And here are my Tiles. they are 32x32 pixles So each of my tiles has Sixteen Characters in a 4x4 grid: BUT! IT TAKES 2 of my tiles (horizontally) to equal the graphic depicted in one Nintendo tile.

 

 

 

The final result is squished down tiles.

I am actually "drawing the character by hand", using the Nintendo Characters as a reference. The only problem is. The Nintendo can use All 4 colors in an 8x8 character AND control each individual pixel. If I'm not mistaken the Atari antic Mode 4 can have 5 color characters BUT, the pixels are "twice as wide" as "they are high". So truly each character has 4 "individual pixles" in the 8x8 grid.

 

I might be really confused but I don't see a way around this. Except for the fact that I must try to reproduce the nintendo 8x8 character (64 individually controlled pixels) with an Atari 8x8 character (32 individually controlled pixels <4 horizontally/8 Vertically>

 

This would mean losing half the resolution.

 

Obviously my firt attempt at using two charcters to make up the difference didn't work as it squishes the image down and strettches it wide.

 

My other Alternative is to Double the vertical pixels so that it can maintain a square ratio. Hence I would Have to use 4 characters To produce 1 Nintendo character.

 

===============================================

 

I really hope I am wrong and just mentally exhausted from the ammount of information I have been taking in the last few weeks. If so, perhaps someone can elaborate more on what I am missing.

 

Lastly, The method of doubling up the vertical pixels, is the method I use to draw In Rambrandt. Because in the mode I am using Atari's pixels aren't square. Heres a text example

 

two Atari pixels in Antic Mode 4. Notice the width is 2x's the Height

 

        ####

        ####

####

####

 

To square it I double the pixels vertically

        ####

        ####

        ####

        ####

#### 

####

####

####

 

This might not look right on the board. because the spacing beteern rows. But I think you can get the Idea that each pixel is 4 "#'s# in length and 4 "#'s# in height.

 

 

Thanks for all of your help. And I'll appologize in advance if I am just not seeing something correctly.

 

~zenassem

[zenassem]

And I forgot to mention that if I try to double the vertical pixels -and use 4 characters to 1 Nintendo -The images will look identical except...

 

They will be twice as BIG.

 

Which will cause me to Not be able to display as many tiles on the screen.

So the graphics will look 2x's bigger yet only half the world can be seen on each screen.

 

Not really an option IMO.

 

So I will try to come "close" to the Nintendo characters; Within in the confines of my 4x8 pixel resolution.

 

I'll just have to be creative.

 

-------------------------------

 

It's either that, or perhaps Zylobane is on to something that I just don't understand.

 

@emkay,

I'm still using G2F for large screen art. But I don't know how to use it for Character->Tile->Map purposes. "Charpad" has all three together with a good description of the file formats. So I can write a Utility to load the images and maps. Plus, If I edit a "character" it automically makes the changes across the other two "Tile" and "Map". It lets you save the entire package as a .ctm as well as the ability to save each of the components individually.

 

If G2F can do this, I will pobably need to wait until a lot of the detail instructions are translated to englis. I understand how to draw, and add some nice effects, but I can't read the details to the file formats.

 

 

~zen

[ZylonBane]

The final result is squished down tiles.

They're not squished down, they're stretched out. An NES pixel is exactly as tall as an Atari mode-4 pixel (both consisting of a single scanline), but it's 60% as wide as an Atari pixel (256h vs 160h). It's the width you should be concerned about, not the height.

 

The ratio between 256 and 160 is 8:5 ... not exactly an easy conversion factor to work with.

 

OTOH, if you manage to deliver a good port of Castlevania, I don't think anyone would really mind that everything is about half too wide. I've attached a couple of images that illustrate the difference. These have been adjusted to show the actual aspect ratios as viewed on an NTSC television, and as such are not pixel-perfect.

[zenassem]

Thanks Zylobane,

 

Yeah I keep on using the term "squished down". But I mean that as an overall appearance. Because it creates a visual distortion. Since the pixels are wider, everything becomes fatter (and because of that it "appears" to be shorter). It's just a ratio thing. So, I realize they are the same height.

 

 

You are correct with the top picture. I'm not sure if people will accept it or not???

 

===============================================

 

It's the same effect as playing an original Gameboy Title on the Gameboy Advance, and spanning the image to take up the entire screen.

 

 

Now, my double wide character set was absouletly awful. I will need to be smarter and alter the tileset. Then I have the option of whether to use the entire screen or to use the display method that Analmux is using in Super Mario Brothers. It will just take me a little while to figure out what will look best.

 

Thanks for the help. I'll create 2 mock-ups of the game screen and let people here tell me which one they feel is better.

 

~zen

[Goochman]

Backgrounds can be stretched and I dont really care - If the player and enemies are stretched then the game may come off wrong - Just my $0.02

 

Backgrounds are just eye candy anyway

[ZylonBane]

Backgrounds may be eye candy, but foregrounds are not, and they'd end up stretched as well.

 

Again, I don't think people would mind. It's obvious when you compare the two side-by-side, but by itself it looks fine. At most, some of the level data could be tweaked to make the stretching less obvious. For example the columns in the screenshot could be made a character narrower.

[gannon]

looks good, but I agree with goochman, it's the character stretching that's the main eyesore.

Still though, it's pretty nice

[Goochman]

Backgrounds may be eye candy, but foregrounds are not, and they'd end up stretched as well.

 

Again, I don't think people would mind. It's obvious when you compare the two side-by-side, but by itself it looks fine. At most, some of the level data could be tweaked to make the stretching less obvious. For example the columns in the screenshot could be made a character narrower.

 

Sorry - I prob wasnt as clear as I wanted to be - Hand draw the player/enemies and dont fret too much about the background and stretch.

 

I would like the player to go on the slimfast diet prior to playing

[Lord-Chaos]

Castlevania was released for the C64 , so a 160*200 version of the graphics exist.

 

You may search for it with google, there is a site with some screenshots.

 

 

There are AMIGA and MS DOS versions, too, at 320*200 pixels, if the C64 graphics are too bad, you may use the AMIGA or DOS versions and rescale the graphics.

 

But I think the C64 graphics are ok and could be done on the 800.

 

Thimo

[emkay]

There are AMIGA and MS DOS versions, too, at 320*200 pixels, if the C64 graphics are too bad, you may use the AMIGA or DOS versions and rescale the graphics.

 

C64 Screenshot:

 

Even if the C64 graphics are "too bad", the XL never can reach this detailed level of graphics.

 

But I think the C64 graphics are ok and could be done on the 800.

Thimo

 

Belonging to the resolution, yes.

To get something near to this graphics level,

 

-you have to use charmode

-you have to use software sprites

-you have to use 'spreaded' PM underlay

 

a.s.o.

[analmux]

There are AMIGA and MS DOS versions, too, at 320*200 pixels, if the C64 graphics are too bad, you may use the AMIGA or DOS versions and rescale the graphics.

 

C64 Screenshot:

 

Even if the C64 graphics are "too bad", the XL never can reach this detailed level of graphics.

 

But I think the C64 graphics are ok and could be done on the 800.

Thimo

 

Belonging to the resolution, yes.

To get something near to this graphics level,

 

-you have to use charmode

-you have to use software sprites

-you have to use 'spreaded' PM underlay

 

a.s.o.

 

....so, what's the problem??? Most of the C64 and NES games already use too many sprites so I would use softwaresprites anyway, so PM's are free for charmode underlays. It should work.

[analmux]

And I forgot to mention that if I try to double the vertical pixels -and use 4 characters to 1 Nintendo -The images will look identical except...

 

They will be twice as BIG.

 

Which will cause me to Not be able to display as many tiles on the screen.

So the graphics will look 2x's bigger yet only half the world can be seen on each screen.  

 

Not really an option IMO.  

 

So I will try to come "close" to the Nintendo characters; Within in the confines of my 4x8 pixel resolution.

 

I'll just have to be creative.

 

-------------------------------

 

It's either that, or perhaps Zylobane is on to something that I just don't understand.

 

@emkay,

I'm still using G2F for large screen art. But I don't know how to use it for Character->Tile->Map purposes. "Charpad" has all three together with a good description of the file formats. So I can write a Utility to load the images and maps. Plus, If I edit a "character" it automically makes the changes across the other two "Tile" and "Map". It lets you save the entire package as a .ctm as well as the ability to save each of the components individually.  

 

If G2F can do this, I will pobably need to wait until a lot of the detail instructions are translated to englis. I understand how to draw, and add some nice effects, but I can't read the details to the file formats.

 

 

~zen

 

Note that the NES can display 256 different characters (8x*8y*4c character tiles) and you need 2 atari characters for 1 NES character --> you'd need 512 characters on atari.

 

Also note that the atari can only display 128 characters at once (without a midscreen fontpage change!)

 

I think we have a problem here.

 

 

-------------------

 

Another suggestion:

 

You could try to port the Gameboy version of Castlevania. It uses a smaller resolution than the atari (160x*120y*4lum on the total screen (not sure on the y-resolution)). This is possible on a normal playfield width and both PAL/NTSC screens.

 

Then you can even enhance the graphics (and even the sound), add more detail (be creative!) in both graphics and colors.

 

That would be a great port.

[emkay]

Doing a conversion job using the C64 version, would be the best way.

 

I did a "virtual" screen in G2F, how the best case may look, plus a real playability by calculated cpu time....

 

The technique would take usage of

 

EOR Sprites with PM underlay

... so the bitmap may flicker, but the PM won't

charmode with a new charset every 2nd charmode line

... so there are 28 chars left for huge sprites and their movement

The PMG-shape will be set by DLI every charmode line

even some colors are changed in DLIs...

[zenassem]

I know about the C=64 characterset, but I really wasn't impressed with it on first glance. So my original goal was to make an Atari version that Looked & played better than the C=64 version, and would aim to closer resemble the NES version.

 

As for the number of characters: The Nes Characterset has many characters that i can eliminate without effecting the level too much. I will lose some of the subtle details that are nice, but I can live with that.

 

I think I will combine my initial ambition with some of the ideas presented here.

 

I will have to be creative with my own Charset. Pulling inspiration from all the versions. Nes, C=64, Gameboy etc... So while my goal will still be to come as close to the Nes version as possible, It won't be 100%.

 

I like Analmux's suggestion of enhancing the gameboy version. I will see where these ideas take me. So now I will completely rework the characterset. My immeditae goal is to get a playable entrance sequence.

(entrance screen 0 - 8 on the NES). This will allow me to see how Gameplay mechanics will work. Which I'm sure is more important to all of you than how many pixels are in a brick.

 

 

(I really wish that everyone had a modified controller that utilizes both contoller ports 1 & 2 to allow for using all the buttons on an NES gamepad. Because i really don't like using "UP" for jump.)

 

 

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll make use of alll of them, and get up a partial playable level. From that I can decide whether the game will be fun to play on the Atari.

 

 

~zen