analmux Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 To start a discussion: Porting games from other platforms (esp. C64) could be fun, but as long as I'm on Atariage there are all kinds of discussions about the comparison between C64 and Atari. For the C64 there is a series of very high quality games (Mayhem in Monsterland, Turrican and others), and we atarians would off course love to see this kind of games on our platform. But then we have the restrictions of our platform: -C64 always has more, wider and more colorful sprites. -C64 has filtered synthesized sound with higher controllabilities. It's a much discussed topic: how do we display more sprites on our atari screen? More colors of playfield graphics and so on... But let's look at the good side of our platform: -we have a 128 color palette -we have one extra sound channel -we have faster scrolling and a faster CPU Nowadays we can use techniques like MCS (G2f) and sound enhancements like Emkay's work in the "i want your ears bleeding"-thread. Now let's combine these things. Let's not concentrate on porting games which have too many sprites. But start from scratch. Knowing the (new) abilities (and restrictions) we should design a game (or demo) around it, and NOT vice versa. F.e. if we design a world-map for a game and we must locate enemies, then we should (like the new G2F optimize feature) look at what places we have space (and CPU time) left to insert extra objects. Another example: Heaven tries to develope a kind of sprite multiplexing engine which works in the most general situation. Others (like me) want to code softwaresprite engines. But what if we design a specific enemy that can just move horizontally. Now we can restrict their vertical positions to antic4 mode lines and use in the region of the enemy a separate font which contains ALL prerolled versions of the moving sprite. When we KNOW what kind of treatment a moving object would need, we can strip down on the code to make it faster. Only for (so called) "free" objects (like a butterfly or the playing character) we could eventually need a more complicated sprite engine (for moving in ALL directions at ALL speeds). And another thing: If we know that in a certain part of the game, where multiple sprites could eveltually overlap, and we need to code an overlap engine (which takes a lot more CPU time), then why should we not restrict the objects: they should in the first place NOT BE ABLE to overlap; instead they should bounce (or something alike). All in all, in the real world it isn't that weird when two objects can't be at the same place at once, and bounce off when they approach each other. When we optimize our game design, keeping these (and other) things in mind, we can surely make games which are outstanding and comparable to the C64 titles I mentioned above. Don't make a game like all the others, and don't try to port C64 games with the idea that you can achieve the same (or similar) quality. This can be very frustrating. C64-alike games included, because you shouldn't design games inspired on the hardware abilities of another platform. We must make (new, non-existing) games inspired on the hardware abilities and recent techniques of our own platform. BE CREATIVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 (edited) Actually, unless you have a real old 800, the Atari 8-bit line has a 256 color pallette and lots of good graphic art programs that made use of it (in the later days anyway). Also, while the C64 is obviously better for music, the Atari's sound chip is very well suited for gaming sounds and in many ways is superior to the C64's sound chip in the sound effects area. The Atari also has FAR, FAR more graphic modes (15+) without using any special techniques, then, with special techniques even more can be acheived (although this is true of the C64 too). I certainly don't mind lower resolutions to take advantage of wider sprites and more colors. I think that many ot the 80x192 graphic modes were underused in the Atari and can make some very cool and color graphics, regardless of resolution, especially if more modern graphic techniques like psuedo 3D graphics are used. Like some of the demos made by programmers/hackers in recent years. This is sort of being discussed in another thread here about having an 'Out Run' port to the 8-bit, and quite frankly, if you look at some of the mock-up pictures made in the various simulated Atari modes, I think they ALL look pretty damn impressive. The Atari platform, in my opinion, has far mor advantages to the C64 than limitations when compared to it. At least from my artistic point of view. There are quite a few Atari games that due to the special graphic modes and faster CPU the C64 cannot compare too; just look at the LucasFilm games like Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus, The Eidelon and Koronis rift: The C64 version can't stand up to them at all! Even the Lucasfilm programmers said that they were glad to be working with the Atari at the time of development due to the speed and graphic capabilities that no other system could handle their games nearly as well. Edited April 16, 2005 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 MARIA graphics chip could allow over 100 moving objects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 of course all comes down to the game design... will you do a horizontal shooter? a platformer? racing game? well... it's up to you... and then you have to design all around the hardware/software abilities. my attempt in the sprite multiplexor came just in mind simply because i have never seen atari games using it! except joust... i don't mean sprite splitter via DLI like river raid or bounty bob strikes back etc... or mirax force... i mean a "real one"... and on other platforms this technique was common used but not on atari... i don't know why... of course my one is a generic approach but think of it addapting and modifiing it to your personal game... then you can simply avoid restrictions which the engine might not handle good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 sprite multiplexing engine -> Project Xan Project_Xan.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 yup. i know this from jet boot jack... but again...any commercial finished game around except joust? i mean virtually more than 4 sprites per scanline... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfused Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 yup. i know this from jet boot jack... but again...any commercial finished game around except joust? i mean virtually more than 4 sprites per scanline... 838285[/snapback] Ms. Pacman seems similair to Joust in how it works. There is also Beef Drop :-). I am assuming you mean flickering when more than 4 players are on a line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageX Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 (edited) MARIA graphics chip could allow over 100 moving objects Has anyone put one in an XL/XE yet? After seeing this comment and then the thread on the 7800 board comparing it with the NES I just thought I would mention something. That is, I think it would be easy to interface the NES PPU to the Atari 8-bit, so easy even I could do it. The CPU and the gfx chip (PPU) in the NES do not share the same bus so the PPU doesn't concern itself with what state the CPU is in (or even what clock it is running at). One could, for instance, take the 34-pin ribbon cable from an old PC that has floppy drives with an edge connector. Snip off some of the plastic on one end and then plug it onto the PBI connector (the right side, IIRC). Remove the CPU from the NES board and wire up the ribbon cable so that the PPU registers will appear in one of the Atari's $Dx00 pages. You need to plug in an NES cartridge (since that is where the character RAM/ROM is) In case anyone is interested in that sort of thing. Edited April 17, 2005 by DamageX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 it seems that you are right... ms pacman seems to work in same way. i must check beef drop homebrew... if it use a similar technique than the programmer is alive so we can ask him how it works in detail... btw. does not use most of the 2600 games this kind of logic??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 yup. indead. ms pacman seems similar engine like joust... have to look more into it... i have to switch the cutom font off to see if the eyes of the ghosts are made by chars and just the ghosts are PMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 MARIA graphics chip could allow over 100 moving objects 838256[/snapback] Unfortunately the Maria graphics chip is in the 7800, not the 8-bit computer line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 A7800 is 8-bit computer line best multiplexer sprite engine: 8 sprites, 4 colors -> Unity Intro (very smart) Unity.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 MARIA graphics chip could allow over 100 moving objects 838256[/snapback] Unfortunately the Maria graphics chip is in the 7800, not the 8-bit computer line... 838659[/snapback] Perhaps the 8-bit computer-line isn't the 7800? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Ok - who's gonna write some game and why tebe will do it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 A7800 is 8-bit computer line best multiplexer sprite engine: 8 sprites, 4 colors -> Unity Intro (very smart) 838667[/snapback] That definitely the best multiplexer around. But there is another thing which is very important. The triple mode scanlines are all done "by full cycle stealing DLI-code" for about 120 scanlines. But there is very much goin on at the screen. The step (in coding) between such demos and full working game engines is very small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 i think you mean this part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 but joyride has a multiplexor as well... emkay. but do not understimate that in demos you have a predefined environment with precalculated conditions... in a game your engine needs more flexibility and i can not say that there is just a small step from a demo to game engine... but f.e. the unity one... the sprites could be all enemies in a shoot em up like uridium or delta f.e.... if you choose your enemy patterns well than you can avoid conflicts... but as i mentioned... it depends on the game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 it's time to write multiplexer, first on PC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfused Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 yup. indead. ms pacman seems similar engine like joust... have to look more into it... i have to switch the cutom font off to see if the eyes of the ghosts are made by chars and just the ghosts are PMs. 838656[/snapback] I thought they might be missiles with the flag set that makes them pull their color from COLPF3 (I am guessing that also gives them a lower priority than the players). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 personally I don't see why the Atari 8-bit can't do a decent rendition of mayhem in monsterland. I know whe'd have to scale back peoples expectations a bit on the happy levels regarding colours, but we have plenty to implement the sad stages. The worst hurdle for MIM seems to have been getting enough horsepower out of the scrolling routines, which puts us firmly in the area the A8 performs best in. It wouldn't be as colourful as the C64 version I know, but you could produce something as playable I'm sure of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 personally I don't see why the Atari 8-bit can't do a decent rendition of mayhem in monsterland. Actually... The more I am trying to explain, where the "lacks" are and the more I am doing "new" stuff... the more I am shure, that all this isn't really wanted, even if coders could do so. The problem starts where the known old "ATARI"-style begins and it ends, where everything "new" is a bad and ugly thing ... Well... I'm not the kwiesatz haderach in making music, but my demonstrations should have done very well, especially if musicians recognize the possibilities and mixing them with their knowledge.... Or... the other thing with the "sadness" 24h contest at ATARIAREA... Which shows very clear, that "real managing of the possibilities" is not wanted either. The appended file contains another combination of G2F & RMT with the sadness theme..... Excluding the taste and my skills in making music, there is a colorful non-flickering picture with cool "instruments" in the "background Music" , and there is approx. 50% CPU cycles unused.... But, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 the instruments are cool... and the deep purple riff was a nice suprise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...pic=66811&st=25 what do you think? am i wrong? and why should this method not be possible on c64? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 what do you think? am i wrong? and why should this method not be possible on c64? 846260[/snapback] If y'mean sprite underlays, they're possible and have been done; there are loads of games that use hi-res sprites with multicolour underlays to up the resolution like Mayhem In Monsterland or Microprose Soccer and i'm still toying with using AHires (320x200 hi-res, three colours per 8x8 pixel cell) at some point for a game. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 i mean multiplexing & ring buffering on c64? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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