New video-card for 8-bit atari...

[Mathy]

Hello Drac030

 

Thanks for the explanation. It indeed was your message I read. But now I have some more questions.

 

Those the device replace the existing GTIA?

Can new cores be flashed into the device?

Is the memory extension accessable by existing RAMdisk handlers or is it video RAM?

Will the VBXE be available without the memory extension (if it's not needed for the VBXE)?

 

BTW I live in the Netherlands. And although Germany sometimes suffers from floading, I wouldn't want to call the Netherlands "abroad".

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[drac030]

Those the device replace the existing GTIA?

 

No.

 

Can new cores be flashed into the device?

 

Yes.

 

Is the memory extension accessable by existing RAMdisk handlers or is it video RAM?

 

It is 320k RAMBO, accessible the standard way (like in any other expanded Atari).

 

Will the VBXE be available without the memory extension (if it's not needed for the VBXE)?

 

I don't know. Probably this depends on how you install the VBXE, but I am not sure.

 

I wouldn't want to call the Netherlands "abroad".

 

You meant "overseas", didn't you?

[peteym5]

It is great that we finally hear some news about Videoboard XE and I am really interested in developing software for these new video devices. We have people proposing to make all types of new upgrades for the Atari Computer and even plan on rebuilding them from scratch. I had suggested VideoBoard XE or some other graphic extensions will be a great ideal because if you are going to create a new product based on the Atari 8-bit, people will be expecting it to do more.

 

Drac030: I know you have been working on an F7 upgrade as well along with developing some software with it. What are the status on those projects? Do you think combining a 65816 upgrade with Videoboard XE would make a significant improvment to the Atari Computer? How far would that take videogame development?

 

Question about the memory: Does it have seperate Antic Access. I am not sure if Rambo supports the XE style bank switching and allows Antic to store the screen information in extended RAM. I probably end up placing this board in a 130XE, and maybe find a way to access the memory via FREDDIE chip. I think this has been posted it has 512k of ram. How many sprites do we get with this thing?

 

I could imagine game developers diving to take advantage Videoboard XE. People on another thread were proposing to make Doom or a similar FPS. Maybe Videoboard XE will be very instrumental for making such a game possible. I thought about a multi-layer tilemap engine, VBXE for forground, Antic for background.

Edited December 29, 2007 by peteym5

[Mathy]

Hello Drac030

 

When I was offline, it dawned on me that I made a small error. I should indeed have typed "overseas".

 

It's a pitty that the vbxe isn't a real GTIA replacement, as that would really make it interesting.

 

BTW does it use SRAM?

 

In that case, why not combine it with my upgrade? 1MB, full software controle over BASIC, OSROM/RAM, Selftest and Missile Command (on the XEGS) plus separate ANTIC and CPU access.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[drac030]

It's a pitty that the vbxe isn't a real GTIA replacement, as that would really make it interesting.

 

From Electron's words I can infer, that making the full replacement would be much more complicated and it would require a more expensive FPGA to be used, with only a fraction of new features the VBXE will offer. The key feature of the VBXE is not just RGB output, but completely new video capabilities, such as color maps, 64k colour palette, unlimited hi-res color sprites etc.

 

The old GTIA at the same time provides the old video output and also still carries some tasks which are not implemented in the VBXE (and they're not implemented, because the old GTIA does them well, such as P/MG collision detection - of course only for the old-style P/MG).

 

BTW does it use SRAM?

 

I don't know, you have to ask Electron about this.

[drac030]

Drac030: I know you have been working on an F7 upgrade as well along with developing some software with it. What are the status on those projects?

 

I am afraid F7 is dead. I have heard nothing from the hardware designer for too long. Probably the F7 will get replaced by Warp4, less featured, but also cheaper and less expensive in production. Once it get fixed, that is, because the publicly available project has been proven to be faulty.

 

Do you think combining a 65816 upgrade with Videoboard XE would make a significant improvment to the Atari Computer?

 

Obviously.

 

How far would that take videogame development?

 

This is a question you have to ask game developers I don't write games nor I play them, so I have no clue.

 

Question about the memory: Does it have seperate Antic Access.

 

Yes.

[peteym5]

Thankyou Drac030 for answering some questions about this board and gives me an ideal of how the sprite data loads up into memory. Just change the bits in PORTB, and you have access. You know 320k of sprite memory could easily fill up the screen several times over with sprite graphics. I did the math, a 320x200x256 screen still fits into 64k.

 

GTIA emulation? I thought the original GTIA chip was going to remain inside for legacy support. Looks like emulating is needed for RGB output, was there no way of channeling the GTIA through? I think once you go to using VBXE sprites, P/M graphics probably won't be necessary. Unless you want to do something retro and mix them together.

 

I know I put a thread up about 3 months ago asking what would you do or like to be done with Videoboard XE. Some had good suggestions like full arcade ports that the Atari could not do origionally because it did not have enough color depth or sprites. Galaga is a good example of that. I'm looking at side scroller games similar to what we see on the Sega Genesis. (Multiplane). Personally, I don't go for exact clones, but would like to see new original games. Unless its an Arcade port that was either poorly done originally or never been done.

Edited December 31, 2007 by peteym5

[electron]

Hi.

 

VBXE replaces GTIA in sense of capturing ANTIC (digital) output and creating own RGB output fully compatible (playfields / PMG / GTIA modes) with the GTIA but of much better picture quality.

 

Original GTIA is still working and old video output is also active. This has the additional advantage that some GTIA features like PMG collision detection / CSYNC generation are still provided by original GTIA and not by FPGA, so I have more room in FPGA for other tasks. In this configuration VBXE captures all writes to d000-d0ff but does NOT handle reads from d000-d00ff leaving this for old GTIA. Ofcourse, by mean "VBXE" I assume hardware + appropriate emulation softcore which is now 100% finished.

 

Ram ext questions ... VBXE gtia emu softcore additionally and optionally emulates 320kB RAMBO 100% compatible RAM expansion - it uses half of 512kB board memory. There is NO separate ANTIC access but it CAN be implemented, but in this case max. amount of extended RAM will be 192kB (64 + 128) because of fact, that using additional PORTB pins already used in the computer (b0, b1, b7) requires some track cutting ... In my opinion so few programs are using more than 320kB or separate ANTIC access ... Installing or not instaling VBXE RAM expansion is not a question of wiring but of softcore loaded.

 

VBXE has FLASH memory onboard. It can keep up to 4 different configurations, one of them can be auto-bootable after computer power up. Booting time is 6s. FLASH can be re-programmed by ATARI program FLASH UTILITY. You can also load a new softcore without re-programming the flash.

 

At this moment there is only GTIA emu + RAM ext softcore fully finished and available. I have to merge blitter softcore and gtia emu softcore, because blitter softcore was based on very early version of GTIA emulation ... and it will be a bit of pain ...

 

But as I mentioned earlier, softcores can be downloaded and flashed.

 

About RAM, yes this is a 512kB FAST (10ns) SRAM.

[Rybags]

Nice.

 

Makes sense to run GTIA in parallel to do stuff like TRIG/CONSOL and collision detection, as there seems little point duplicating them.

 

But, a couple of Q's.

 

Will collision detection be implemented for PMGs and/or legacy foreground objects to VBXE generated graphics?

 

Will component video output (Y, cR, cB) be possible (for people who might like to run through a modern TV instead of VGA monitor)?

[carmel_andrews]

Softcore...Is that like a 'software emulator' (i.e emulation of GTIA and other hardware, in software)

[peteym5]

Hi.

 

VBXE replaces GTIA in sense of capturing ANTIC (digital) output and creating own RGB output fully compatible (playfields / PMG / GTIA modes) with the GTIA but of much better picture quality.

 

Original GTIA is still working and old video output is also active. This has the additional advantage that some GTIA features like PMG collision detection / CSYNC generation are still provided by original GTIA and not by FPGA, so I have more room in FPGA for other tasks. In this configuration VBXE captures all writes to d000-d0ff but does NOT handle reads from d000-d00ff leaving this for old GTIA. Ofcourse, by mean "VBXE" I assume hardware + appropriate emulation softcore which is now 100% finished.

 

Ram ext questions ... VBXE gtia emu softcore additionally and optionally emulates 320kB RAMBO 100% compatible RAM expansion - it uses half of 512kB board memory. There is NO separate ANTIC access but it CAN be implemented, but in this case max. amount of extended RAM will be 192kB (64 + 128) because of fact, that using additional PORTB pins already used in the computer (b0, b1, b7) requires some track cutting ... In my opinion so few programs are using more than 320kB or separate ANTIC access ... Installing or not instaling VBXE RAM expansion is not a question of wiring but of softcore loaded.

 

VBXE has FLASH memory onboard. It can keep up to 4 different configurations, one of them can be auto-bootable after computer power up. Booting time is 6s. FLASH can be re-programmed by ATARI program FLASH UTILITY. You can also load a new softcore without re-programming the flash.

 

At this moment there is only GTIA emu + RAM ext softcore fully finished and available. I have to merge blitter softcore and gtia emu softcore, because blitter softcore was based on very early version of GTIA emulation ... and it will be a bit of pain ...

 

But as I mentioned earlier, softcores can be downloaded and flashed.

 

About RAM, yes this is a 512kB FAST (10ns) SRAM.

 

Thankyou Electron, this answers many questions about this board and I am starting to see how thing board works. Backward compatibility is something everyone wants to see. All the software that used player/missile graphics will still run. Not sure if too many people will combine player/missile graphics with VBXE sprites because having all those elements running starts taxing the bus and cpu cycles. Now for people who have a 130xe or did a memory extension can this memory be used along with VBXE instead of emulating RAMBO? You're probably correct in that not many programs use much extended memory. I used Separate Antic Access in a few Turbobasic games I made years ago. Now I do almost everything in assembly. I am thinking much larger, memory and data-table intensive games.

 

I wonder if videoboard xe can hack games like Sonic the Hedge Hog or Super Mario World style games with the multi-plane scrolling screens. Certain would have the sprite ability, 512k would be enough for both background and foreground, or just do an Antic 4 background.

[Mathy]

Hello peteym5

 

If I understood correctly, 256kB of the 512kB of memory are used by the VBXE and the other half is used as a RAMBO compatible memory upgrade.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[peteym5]

I wonder if a manufacturer has been found yet for this board? There might be a few sources in the United States for the board sold here who can easily make the board. Question is does he need that chip to be manufactured as well? Sounds like that they are purchased and the core is flashed. There are also manufactures in Central America and like Japan who can do it inexpensively. You can probably have a few people do it as a work from 'home type project', then send them send it out to a distributor. Depends on how many people do buy the boards.

 

Something else I have gathered that the chip on the board is a programmable co-processor. Wonder if it can be flashed to do other tasks like extensive mathematic routines that are otherwise time consuming on a 6502.

 

I know many have posted concerns about losing compatibility with their old programs and I do not see how this board would create that problem because its registers go into unused hardware memory areas. Unless you have other hardware mods using those area then you can just flash it use another page in the hardware area. Plus when the thing is inactive, you have the same Atari you always had. I know you can use pages $D1, $D5,D6, & $D7, I personally wont use $D5 because cartridges use it for bank switching.

[drac030]

You don't use D1 because it is not "free", it is reserved for PBI devices (like MIO, Blackbox, KMK/JŻ IDE, and so forth).

 

The chip used in the VBXE is an FPGA.

[Mathy]

Hello guys and girls

 

$D6xx is also intended of use by parallel bus devices. The BlackBox uses it, the PCBridge (never finished) does and probably some other parallel bus devices too.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

PS you can find out more about the PCBridge via a special website that you can find using Google.

[peteym5]

I was aware of the PBI using $D1xx and some devices using $D6xx, seems like $D7xx is the safest location. But it depends on how many people use black boxes and PCbridge devices. Another option is to find a way to have it share the page with the Antic chip ($D010-$D0FF). I know it will trickier to wire it into the main board, but it is already replacing the spot of the Antic socket. Only problem I see there is if there's software out there that access the Antic chip in the repeats section on the same page.

 

I know there was a mention of using D6xx or D7xx for that COVOX chip, but from what I've seen with that chip, you have to tie up most of your CPU time to play a decent sound. I feel its not very practical to incorporate it into game play. People were proposing to tie them into the GTIA to sync the sound or something. To me, you need a separate processor to use it for games. Perhaps the processor on VBXE can do something to make that more practical. [Edit] Anyone looking to obtain a Videoboard XE will be looking to buy or make video games or related applications and most likely wont be using these things together. A Dual Pokey is more widely accepted for sound & music applications.

Edited January 30, 2008 by peteym5

[peteym5]

Has anybody gone over to Atari Area and found anything new on this? The last information I have seen stated that Electron was seeking someone to produce these boards. Wondering if he had any luck and if he is able to distribute them around the world.