ST vs. 8 bit

[Inky]

If you were to base it on JUST the quality of gameplay, which system, the ST or the atari 8 bits have the higher quality games?

 

I owned an ST, and it seems to me that there is 1 gem for every 4 stinkers on the ST. I never owned an 8-bit, but am thinking of getting one as a learning computer for my little ones (honestly! )

[Albert]

While there are a lot of great games on the Atari ST, I think I could keep myself occupied for far longer with the library of excellent titles on the 8-bit. Part of that is I'm more familiar with all the games on the 8-bit, although I did also own STs back "in the day". If you include disk-based games in the 8-bit library (as opposed to just carts), you could be busy for a very long time indeed. Maybe I'm just partial to the 8-bits since an Atari 800XL was the first computer I owned.

 

..Al

[Jetboot Jack]

Yeah I concur, the 8bit has a great library of Golden Age video games.

 

And whilst I lived in England during the ST's glory days, and therfore experienced the FLOOD of games for the machine in Europe, I gotta say less of them stick in my mind as much as the 8bit wonders!

 

That said the ST has a wonderful library of late 80's and early 90's European software, which for the one time in Atari's life elevated their computers to be dominant platform...

 

sTeVE

[Mindfield]

In the ST's defense, there are plenty of really great titles you won't find on the 8-bit, both commercial and free/shareware stuff.

 

However, indeed I do think the 8-bit had more of its share of great and playable games than the ST did. In some cases, 8-bit versions of games that also appeared on the ST were even better. Take Alternate REality: The City, for example. The ST version was, quite simply, crap. Oh, you could do more in it -- get a job (and a watch to tell time, and therefore show up on schedule), join guilds, things like that, but the sound just wasn't there. You missed the atmospheric sound of the wind and the rain, and all the other great sounds were just plain dull. The Smithy's hammer was a little tinkle where the 8-bit version sounded a little meatier. The music somehow sounded less presentable. Even the encounter ditties on the ST were thin where the 8-bit's version had presence. And the graphics? Yeah, believe it or not, the 8-bit's version, while lower resolution, was more colourful and engrossing than the ST version.

 

If you want true classic gaming, the 8-bit I think is a better choice. Like I said, the ST had its fair share of great classics and stuff, but overall I think the 8-bit had a larger volume of classics.

[welshleo]

I'm not sure on this one. I have several models of both but I'm currently using the 8-bits more for programming. The ST systems are gathering dust until I can find a use for them.

 

It depends on the type of games you wanted to play. The 8-bit had more arcade-oriented games that were fun and simple to play (e.g Rescue on Fractalus), while the ST had a library of more complex games that required much more strategy (e.g. Carrier Command, Midwinter). The one thing I will say is that when more complex games did come out on the 8-bit playability suffered a little (e.g. Koronis Rift). You can only push a system so far.

 

At the end of the day, for fun simpler games with bags of playability, go 8-bit.

 

Hmmm ... I've got a yearning now to dig out an ST and play Carrier Command!

[Sheddy]

I think maybe the reason we remember more bad games on the ST is because the ST became very popular early in its life and some developers were keen to rush stuff out the door, knowing that being first would guarantee sales. I think it was around this time the industry started taking more notice of management decisions not to take too many risks with games....and knowing a good licence was a sure fire sales generator whatever the quality of the game.

 

Also, don't forget the ST (and Amiga) was much more complex than what had gone before, and there was a much steeper learning curve to overcome.

 

There were much more ambitious titles on it, with a correspondingly greater risk of being unable to perfect them.

[welshleo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sheddy:

Also, don't forget the ST (and Amiga) was much more complex than what had gone before, and there was a much steeper learning curve to overcome.

---

 

The learning curve on the ST wasn't that great. The biggest learning curve was actually 68000 assembler if you'd just moved up from an 8-bit. The ST's OS was a dream to program - I actually learned to program it in assembler before I managed it on the 8-bit!

 

The Amiga, on the other hand, was a nightmare to program and did have a very steep learning curve. That's why the ST initially took off. I remember Jeff Minter commenting on this aspect of the two machines some years ago.

[Sheddy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Wyn Davies:

The learning curve on the ST wasn't that great. The biggest learning curve was actually 68000 assembler if you'd just moved up from an 8-bit. The ST's OS was a dream to program - I actually learned to program it in assembler before I managed it on the 8-bit!

 

The Amiga, on the other hand, was a nightmare to program and did have a very steep learning curve. That's why the ST initially took off. I remember Jeff Minter commenting on this aspect of the two machines some years ago.

---

 

I never programmed ST so I can't say, but if its OS is anything like the Amiga's, it sure would have scared most people used to talking straight to the metal! All those extra WIMP/memory management etc. abstractions to get your head around......(please,just let me write to the screen buffer!)......most of the time on 8-bit all you needed the OS for was to load your program!

 

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Sheddy ]

[Albert]

Mindfield: You're right, the ST does certainly have its share of classics. And you hit it right on when talking about Alternate Reality, the ST port just isn't that great or as satisfying as the original 8-bit version.

 

In a way this discussion is like comparing Apples to Oranges, since the machines are from two different generations. The ST allowed for much larger and more sophisticated games that would have been impossible on the 8-bit. For instance, Dungeon Master was quite impressive in its day, but simply couldn't be done on the 8-bit. 8-bit games tend to be simpler. Thus, you can generally get into them pretty quickly, without a steep learning curve.

 

I guess after 20 years this is what makes many 8-bit games appealing, in that you can still just plop yourself down in front of an 8-bit and start having fun immediately. I actually had to read the manuals for many ST games, and this didn't happen too frequently on the 8-bit.

 

..Al

[Goochman]

Being a huge 8bit and ST fan this was a tough question to answer, but my basement answered it for me - I have my 8bit setup and my ST boxed up. For some reason I feel the 8bits provided more cerativity in the games vs the 16bit machines. Almost like the 16bit machines were graphically better versions of 8bit titles for awhile (though gameplay wasnt).

 

I have a few ST titles I really liked, but for some reason the 8bit always keeps me coming back

[Mindfield]

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Wyn Davies:

The learning curve on the ST wasn't that great. The biggest learning curve was actually 68000 assembler if you'd just moved up from an 8-bit. The ST's OS was a dream to program - I actually learned to program it in assembler before I managed it on the 8-bit!

 

The Amiga, on the other hand, was a nightmare to program and did have a very steep learning curve. That's why the ST initially took off. I remember Jeff Minter commenting on this aspect of the two machines some years ago.

---

 

Jeff actually wanted to get on board with the Amiga -- it had the hardware to do justice to his trippy games. It didn't work out that way, however; to quote Jeff himself, it went down a little like this:

 

Yak: "Hey, the Amiga looks cool!"

Commodore: "Piss off."

Yak: "Hey, the ST looks cool!"

Atari: "Here, have one of the first ones!"

 

The rest is furry history. :-)

 

But I'd agree, if you'd ever programmed 6502 assembler, 68000 was a dream upgrade. The learning curve wasn't that bad at all.

[Mindfield]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

Mindfield: You're right, the ST does certainly have its share of classics. And you hit it right on when talking about Alternate Reality, the ST port just isn't that great or as satisfying as the original 8-bit version.

 

In a way this discussion is like comparing Apples to Oranges, since the machines are from two different generations. The ST allowed for much larger and more sophisticated games that would have been impossible on the 8-bit. For instance, Dungeon Master was quite impressive in its day, but simply couldn't be done on the 8-bit. 8-bit games tend to be simpler. Thus, you can generally get into them pretty quickly, without a steep learning curve.

 

I guess after 20 years this is what makes many 8-bit games appealing, in that you can still just plop yourself down in front of an 8-bit and start having fun immediately. I actually had to read the manuals for many ST games, and this didn't happen too frequently on the 8-bit.

 

..Al

---

 

Heh... true, the 8-bit had a great deal of that pick-up-and-go mentality to it. Simpler machine, simpler games, easier to pick up and run with -- with notable exceptions, of course; many strategy and war games were a little out of depth for most people without reading the manual. But for the most part everything was easy to come to terms with and therefore easier to get into right away.

 

The ST had its share of such games, too, of course. Dungeon Master was easy to get into, though you had to have your manual handy to work out spell components. (And DM/CSB were both fantastic games, especially considering it was one of the earliest first-generation ST games) But then there were fantastic shooters like the Turrican games, R-Type, GODS (Bitmap Bros. rock!), Xenon/Xenon II, Blood Money, The Killing Game Show (Psygnosis had the best intros) etc. that were easy to pick up, too. and plenty of great complex 3D games the 8-bit couldn't do as well.

 

Sure, it's a little like apples and oranges, but for sheer gameplay "fun" value I think most of us remember a little more fondly the 8-bit for its sheer plethora of instantly playable games that almost always had you coming back for another round. There were lots on the ST, to be sure, but I think the 8-bit had that instant gratification edge that the ST sometimes missed. On that level alone the comparison isn't too far fetched.

[Heaven/TQA]

ST(e) was cool... i have an atari 1040ste...

 

f.e.

 

wings of death (1+2)

chambers of chaolin

+ the rest of Thalion games (Dragonflight, Amberstar, etc)

Bitmap brother stuff (Xenon2, Cadaver, Speedball 1+2, etc.)

Toki

R-Type

Buggy

Lotus Esprit Challenge

etc...

 

there are a lot of classics which you can not compare to 8bit but have the same feeling like the 800 stuff... they were milestones on 16bit computers...

 

my 1200 amiga is also great:

 

-defender of the crown

-kick off 2

-turrican stuff (all Factor 5 stuff...yes... THey are the guys behind Star Wars:Rogue Squadron on Gamecube)

-ports of call

-other brilliant games...

 

so... i think you find milestones on all "classic systems"....