w1k Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 switch to xyper xf mod OS.. switch to density detection is in progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 @w1k One question. I have one XF with Chinon mechanism here. I was wondering: is it possible to boot a B-side disk with this hyperXF rom on such a chinon drive? On these (braindead) chinon XF drives one can't flip a disk at all!! Not even for booting (this s*cks bigtime!). I never tried the hyperXF with it. I understand even with HyperXF upgrade it is not possible to fysical flip the disk and boot, but perhaps with this special 'partition related feature' it is possible to boot the B-side... even when the A-side is inserted? One more question. Is there a hack possible of that OS that you can boot the B-side of a disk, even when it is installed normally? If that is possible, I would install two XF-roms (with a switch indeed). So flipping a disk would be done with a switch instead of actually flipping the disk! That would be awesome!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 @w1k Wouldn't the disk be rotating backwards? That could be a challenge... Why won't a Chinon drive boot the b-side? Does it need index in order to come ready? Bob One question. I have one XF with Chinon mechanism here. I was wondering: is it possible to boot a B-side disk with this hyperXF rom on such a chinon drive? On these (braindead) chinon XF drives one can't flip a disk at all!! Not even for booting (this s*cks bigtime!). I never tried the hyperXF with it. I understand even with HyperXF upgrade it is not possible to fysical flip the disk and boot, but perhaps with this special 'partition related feature' it is possible to boot the B-side... even when the A-side is inserted? One more question. Is there a hack possible of that OS that you can boot the B-side of a disk, even when it is installed normally? If that is possible, I would install two XF-roms (with a switch indeed). So flipping a disk would be done with a switch instead of actually flipping the disk! That would be awesome!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Yep, possible. You use partitions A and B on the 5,25 Hyper-Xf drive, where partition A = side 1, head 1 and partition B = side 2, head 2. Thus, no need to flip the disk. You can simply boot partition B (side 2 of the disk) then, the second head will use the one index-hole thats on all disks (no need for two index-holes then). But remember: Since this partition is created with head 2 and without flipping, it cannot be read with a standard floppy (1050, Indus, Rana, etc.), its incompatible (the writing direction and/or rotation is reversed). Which means, if your Hyper-XF OS (or the XF drive) gets defective one day, you still have all your disks, but you can only read side A / partition A of them on a non-Hyper-XF disk-drive. That`s why I never use that partition feature on the 5,25" Hyper-XF drives, I want to be compatible with my good old 1050 drive... -Andreas Koch. P.S.: head = read/write head (the XF has two of them, the 1050 only one)... Edited December 11, 2011 by CharlieChaplin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1k Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 thanks charlie all interesting mods: http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/Tipy-a-triky-009-FD-360-rpm-to-300-rpm-Tips-tricks.aspx http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/ATARI-XF551-3xOSin1Eprom-3_3.aspx http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/ATARI-XF551-3xOSin1Eprom-1_2.aspx http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/ATARI-floppy-disk-drive-XF551-3_3.aspx http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/ATARI-floppy-disk-drive-XF551-2_3.aspx http://blog.3b2.sk/igi/post/ATARI-floppy-disk-drive-XF551-1_3.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Nice website, that. Thanks for the links! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Is the Hyper HF one of the better upgrades for the XF551? Remember, I'm spoiled with track buffering from a 1050 Duplicator and the speed of USD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Yes, Hyper XF has many fans, but I can't get one to boot from the second side what it wants to play alternate reality as D2:, D3:, D4: as well. I'm guessing as I have no solution or clue and just can't get second side on 5.25 to work for me after several tries. Could be something I'm not doing, but exactly what, I have no clue. Buffering it can't match, but it makes USD speed look like a whipped puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I don't understand... the XF's stock firmware works fine if you understand how it works and why it works the way it does... and you can modify sparta x to boot all on it's own and switch density. the stubborn nature of the that density switch ensured it boots disks even with bad sector etc copy protection. A dos that knows about density and the xf either knows about the xf or you have to modify the boot to send the reset that switches the density... it boots and runs when you flip disks no problems... it only has the problem of formatting a flipped disk without index hole, and you can hole punch that.. or add index pulse faker circuit or add the ir emittor/sensor pair, or buy actual pre punched flippy disks... The updated roms that allow multi drive ID's need a mech for each ID, you can't expect games that are single sided flip disks to read the opposite side as if it were D2: automatically....you still have to flip the disk... if the dos does not sio reset and select properly you have to power down and back up the xf will switch density on it's own access Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 From reading this thread, I gather the following: Chinon mechs can't read the B side of a flippy, period, w/o an index hole. [iE: Flip disk, so B is up, Chinon can't do it] HXF Rom allows you to write out D2: as the B side on a DS disk. You can then read it back ONLY on the HXF. So in theory you should be able to copy a multi-disk game to a single disk and have it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) ugh that sounds horrible. completely proprietary ... no wonder not many people wrote disks out that way.... I went back and re read the thread... it seems a number of things were planned but not working or finished? So glad I only did the 3.5 burn with these bits changed eprom upgrades and CSS upgrades only... This thing sound wonderful, but looks like it wasn't truely polished or finished Edited January 12, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Well, I am not a technician, quite the opposite, so please forgive me if I am telling you false/wrong things here. But afaik, AR was made for standard Atari disk drives - with one read/write head, so-called flippy disks. They are formatted in such a way, that if you use the original disks (or copies of them), then you must flip them over to read diskside B ! When the Hyper-XF uses the partition mode, it simply cannot read the backside of such a disk in "normal" format with its second read/write head... Instead you have to setup the Hyper-XF for partition mode first and then copy these disks over to the "new format" (e.g. by using two floppy drives, like a 1050 and a Hyper-XF). Afaik, when the XF and Hyper-XF reads/writes from/to diskside B without flipping it over (with its second read/write head), then the read/write direction is reversed or something like that... (Think this is also true for standard XF551 drives when using 360k DS/DD format, where the second read/write head formats the backside of the disk and this backside cannot be read on DD-drives with just one read/write head, not only because it is missing DIR and VTOC...) As said before, I never used the partition mode with Hyper-XF and a 5,25" drive, since I wanted to stay compatible with my Speedy 1050 drives (which cannot read a disk created on the XF or Hyper-XF with reversed read/write direction)... Think the technical Atarians can tell you more here ! By using the second read/write head of the XF551 (as if it were D2:), you don`t have the index-hole-problem any longer and diskside B of any disk with just one index hole can be formatted on Mitsumi and Chinon drives without a problem (but are incompatible to all floppy drives with just one read/write head). I have never tested this partition feature of the Hyper-XF with a 5,25" drive, so cannot tell if it works or not. Maybe it is just written in the Hyper-XF manual but does not really work - I do not know. As a sidenote, Atari wanted to use this feature with the double-sided floppy drive in the Atari 1450XLD - you can read it in some of the DOS 3 manuals, that the 1450XLD floppy drive should be used as D1: and D2: (where in reality the DOS was using the two read/write heads as if they were two floppy drives)... Again, please forgive me, if it is pure nonsense I am writing here !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 no it's not non sense at all I find what you wrote very cogent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hello Andreas The Hyper-XF ROM-code was written by Stefan Dorndorf. I've met Stefan more than a couple of times at meetings like the Fujiama and the NOMAM (for those co-reading this: No not Al Bundy's "NO MA'AM"). If the Hyper XF had bugs when it came out years ago, Stefan would have found and fixed them by now. And if there were none-working features, they would have been fixed by now too. Believe me. Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Please verify that with him as you have a way to interact with him, and then if possible see if we can get/ and or have the last best bug free version promulgated through the community/webs.... I've not had any success with hyper so I did what was logical CSS etc.. burn an image after fiddling... I may have even done some B Wooley installs... Edited January 13, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hello _The Doctor_ What exactly do you want me to ask him? Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 about the final fully functional firmware and software of the hyper... so that the fully functional and battle ready certified product is here... I never had success with it but if it's all good I wish to give it a fair shake... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Hello Andreas The Hyper-XF ROM-code was written by Stefan Dorndorf. I've met Stefan more than a couple of times at meetings like the Fujiama and the NOMAM (for those co-reading this: No not Al Bundy's "NO MA'AM"). If the Hyper XF had bugs when it came out years ago, Stefan would have found and fixed them by now. And if there were none-working features, they would have been fixed by now too. Believe me. Sincerely Mathy Of course I already know that Stefan wrote the Hyper-XF OS. I meet him every year at the annual Abbuc meeting and talk with him. He is a very nice guy and always tells me what he likes or does not like about certain ASC programs (and in most cases I share his opinion). He also quite often shows me several cheats and tricks (or bugs) he found in the programs. Last year he showed me his latest version/update of XDOS... I only use the Hyper-XF OS regularly with a 3,5" drive, the partition mode works there without any problems so far. Have never tested the partition mode with a 5,25" drive however (allthough I also have two 5,25" XF drives with Hyper-XF-OS)... Think the partition-mode problems are coming from the fact, that you first have to copy/transfer your normal 5,25" diskettes (only diskside B!) into the special XF/Hyper-XF format (since the second read/write head cannot read/write from/to normal flippy disks)... Edited January 13, 2018 by CharlieChaplin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 about the final fully functional firmware and software of the hyper... so that the fully functional and battle ready certified product is here... I never had success with it but if it's all good I wish to give it a fair shake... Afaik, there is only one version of the Hyper-XF OS, version 1.0 (A or B depending on 5,25" or 3,5" version), so this is the final firmware... (if there is a newer version, then I have not seen it)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Afaik, there is only one version of the Hyper-XF OS, version 1.0 (A or B depending on 5,25" or 3,5" version), so this is the final firmware... (if there is a newer version, then I have not seen it)... I'll add that there are no buggy versions either. What we have is google translated instructions that don't express in so many words that the Hyper XF is or is not workable with a stock XF-551 360K floppy disk using the 5.25 rom. If not, this would be first time I've ever been aware of that boondoggle or even that possibility. While it explains my problems trying to use it in that manner, I would like to see it in source code to perhaps make it not that way. AR capable really means nothing to me, I've never played the game nor do I want to. I'd rather have a drive that 'plays well' with other Atari formatted floppies. And this of course can not include the back side of flippies unless they are flipped and used in the same single side manner and this tends to not work out so well with Chinon drives as we already know. The Chinon needs a separate 50-60Hz timer and perhaps one can be had using the hardware on the XF-551 as is? Some new code, a jumper wire and this issue is no more? A separate 555 timer might also suffice. IBM 360K is different from Atari 360K and the Hyper XF was written to be usable with IBM 360K only with supporting software that was never released. But the drive is still capable with it's rich array of special SIO commands that presumably would have been utilized in the unfinished IBM disk access software. What exactly do you want me to ask him? Ask him if would be in the mood to release the OS system memory map equates and/or any source code if he isn't going to continue work. How would he feel if derivative work was released? TIA, Mathy. Having nothing else, I at least do now have a possible clue as to why the backside on 360K is not working as a stock XF-551 360K disk. Thanks for the discussion, in particular CharlieChaplin for giving me a clue as to what might have been wrong in my thinking for many, many years here. I assumed too much yet again perhaps? I'll need to verify this new direction in what might be the issue next time I'm around the disassembly of Stephan's fine work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I believe this is an index hole bypass mod: http://www.b-pahl.de/atari8bit/xf551/xf551.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I believe this is an index hole bypass mod: http://www.b-pahl.de/atari8bit/xf551/xf551.html Yes it is. I have such a mod. in one of my XF drives, so I can format the diskside B of a flippy disk without problems. Think it does not cost more than 2 Euros / Dollars and a mass production would have even been cheaper... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Having nothing else, I at least do now have a possible clue as to why the backside on 360K is not working as a stock XF-551 360K disk. Thanks for the discussion, in particular CharlieChaplin for giving me a clue as to what might have been wrong in my thinking for many, many years here. I assumed too much yet again perhaps? I'll need to verify this new direction in what might be the issue next time I'm around the disassembly of Stephan's fine work. Errm, if you set the Hyper-XF into mode "X" (XF-mode) then it behaves exactly as the XF551 drive and does NOT use partitions, thus the 360k format works exactly like on a stock XF551. The XF551 as well as the Hyper-XF (in XF-mode) reads/writes the 360k format differently than other drives with two read/write heads: first sectors 1-720, then sectors 1440 to 721. Floppy 2000 and various other double-sided A8 drives do it like this: first sectors 1-720, then sectors 721-1440. And in the PC world it is again different: first sector 1, side A; then sector "1", side B, next sector 2, side A, then sector "2", side B, etc. Thus it is the XF551 that generated a different standard for double-sided disks that differs from other double-sided A8 drives and also differs from PC drives (the Hyper-XF however behaves exactly like the XF551 in 360k mode). If you are using the partition mode, then you are limited to single-sided formats like 90k/130k/180k on the Hyper-XF, but the formats can be mixed (e.g. partition A with 90k, partition B with 180k). The incompatibility with normal / flippy-disks comes from the fact, that you flip them over on drives with just one read/write head and therefore alyways read/write them from sectors 1-720 (side A and side B when flipped are written that way). If you use the partition mode with the Hyper-XF however, then the second read/write head is used for partition (and diskside) B and then the above mentioned reversed order of sectors (in 360k mode 1440-721, in 90k/180k partition mode it is 720-1, in 130k mode it is 1040-1) comes into play again. This "non-standard" behaviour was already there with the XF551 in 360k mode and it also has been used/integrated with the Hyper-XF in partition mode... you may like it or not, but it works like that. If I want to use the Hyper-XF with any mode on 3,5" disks, I have to transfer (copy) my 5,25" disks to them. Believe it or not, if you want to use your "normal" 5,25" flippy disks in partition mode with the Hyper-XF on a 5,25" drive, then you also have to transfer (copy) them over !! If you don`t do that (leave the normal / flippy-disks unchanged), then diskside/partition B will not work in partition mode ! Edited January 13, 2018 by CharlieChaplin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hello guys I have the distinct impression that we aren't seeing one "problem": The backside of a disk ALWAYS turns in the other direction as the topside does. Independent of the format or the size of the disk. So data written to a disk using head number two can never be read by head number one and vice versa. Sincerely Mathy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) didn't know disk rotation was part of the 'argument', thought it was already mentioned, but this thread has run the gamut of gripes.. that's it redesign a drive to spin backawards we've done multiple index hole solutions and write protect as well, we've got density and mech fixes why not ? lets's spin it backwards just for fun can it be done> Edited January 13, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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